frances amelia mcentegert

[bidston]

hi all, just received the birth certificate for my great grandmother, as above, 5 oct 1847, sadly the one piece of info i needed is mothers maiden name, and we cant read it clearly, mother was either jane paul or jane taul, which sounds a bit odd, but the last letters are definitely aul, any ideas

[Margaret in Burton]

I have come across the surname Paul before

[Margaret in Burton]

What's the father's name? I'll see if I can find a marriage.

[Margaret in Burton]

Are you sure you are spelling her surname correctly? Can't find the birth reg in the indexes.
Where was she born?

[Nell]

Paul or Saul are surnames I know of.

[kiterunner]

Are you sure you are spelling her surname correctly? Can't find the birth reg in the indexes.
Where was she born?

It's listed on FreeBMD as McEnteyart though I don't know if that's what it says on the actual index image.

[kiterunner]

Having looked at the index image, I think it says McEntegart but the g is quite faint.

[kiterunner]

Presumably this is them on the 1861 census, in case it helps anyone searching:

18 Deacon Street, Everton, Liverpool:
Thomas McEntegart Head Marr 48 Master Porter Ireland
Jane Do Wife Do 44 Liverpool
Alfred Do Son Unm 19 Do
Henrietta Do Daur Do 18 Do
Augustus Do Son Do 15 Do
Francis Do Daur Do 14 Do

[Margaret in Burton]

I can't find a marriage in either spelling of that name on FreeBMD, Ancestry or Family Search.

[kiterunner]

Ah, and now I see them in 1851, transcribed as Entigart on ancestry:

Bright Street, Everton, Liverpool
Thomas McEntigart Head Mar 40 Corn Dealer Ireland
Jane Do Wife Do 36 Lancs Liverpool
Henrietta P Do Daur 9 Do
Francis N Do Son 3 Do
William Do Do 13 Do
Thomas Do Do 11 Do
Alfred Do Do 9 Do
Augustus Do Do 6 Do
(plus servant)

Wonder whether they had both been married before, given the strange order in listing the children?

[kiterunner]

In 1841 at Clarence Street, Mount Pleasant, Liverpool:
Thos McEntegart 30 can't read occupation I
Thomas Do 2 yes
William Do 4 yes
Alfred McEntegart 1 yes
Jane Do 27 yes

There are some other people in the household but I haven't got time to type them out now. Don't think they're related, though.
Anyway, looks as though they would have got married before 1837.

[Margaret in Burton]

They have listed the girls before the boys which is unusual. If anything the boys usually get listed before the girls.

[Margaret in Burton]

So we are possibly looking at Liverpool area for a marriage?

[garstonite]

in the South of Liverpool there are quite a few Paul family...originally from Portugal...one of my mates here in Garston is a Paul and it was he who told me the origin.....allan:)

[garstonite]

spelling variations in Liverpool on freebmd
McIntagert in 1850 / 1852...Liverpool
McEntagert 1868 / 1877.....West Derby , Liverpool
McIntaggert 1877 / 1885 / 1890 / 1897 /1900 / Liverpool
McEntegert 1894 / 1895 West Derby , Liverpool....
Garston comes under West Derby , so looks like they were in South Liverpool area......

allan..........:)

[kiterunner]

William's birth was registered Oct-Dec 1837 Liverpool, and there is a Jane's birth listed with the same page number, most likely his twin. It's one of those index pages that has been replaced by a typed one, and the surname has been mistyped as MCENTARGT. Jane jr's death was registered in the same quarter.

Then Thomas jr's birth registered Jan-Mar 1839 also Liverpool, and Alfred's Jul-Sep 1840 West Derby.

[Olde Crone]

Paul is quite a common surname here in Cornwall!

OC

[Margaret in Burton]

I have Paul's from Leicestershire

[kiterunner]

There is a possible Jane Saul baptism listed on the IGI:

Jane Saul christened 20th Nov 1814 St Nicholas, Liverpool, parents William and Jane.

[bidston]

kiteriunner, outstanding piece of work, many thanks, father is thomas mcentagert, born ireland, yes, that entry where they use a y instead of a g is an error, could saul and paul be a bit interchangeable, especially with the latin name problem i have had before, forgot to mention the birth was at everton district, liverpool

thanks garstonite for local info, what i really need is the paul family with young jane prior to the marriage, thanks again all

[bidston]

hi kiterunner, found a marriage for william saul and jane crane, liverpool 7 april 1811 on family search, could that be them

[bidston]

also found a birth, jane crane 21 april 1785, christening at st nicholas, liverpool, this church keeps popping up, 11th may 1785

[kiterunner]

Yes, that marriage looks likely, but we haven't yet proved for sure that Jane Saul, daughter of William and Jane, is your Jane, have we?

[bidston]

no, that's true, trying to find jane saul on the census prior to her marriage and the family some time after

[kiterunner]

She was already married by the time the 1841 census was taken, and as far as I know there are no pre-1841 censuses available for the Liverpool area?

[bidston]

what about directories, would they be of any use

[kiterunner]

A directory would only list the head of household.

[bidston]

blimey, bit stuck now

[kiterunner]

The other two children listed on the IGI as being baptised at St Nicholas, Liverpool, with parents William Saul and Jane are:
Thomas Saul born 23 Feb 1812 died 22 Sep 1812
Mary Rosanna Saul christened 28 Mar 1813.

There is a possible entry for Mary on the 1851 census at 9 Virginia Street, Liverpool:
Mary Stewart Head Wid 38 Lodging House Keeper Lancaster Lpool
Jane Saul Mother Widow 70 living with daur Isle of Man
William Miller Cousin U 29 Book Keeper Lancaster Lpool
plus two lodgers.

I haven't managed to find them in 1841 (yet) nor Mary's marriage.

[Olde Crone]

I may be right off track here, but the only birth of a Henrietta in 1842 in Liverpool (Henryetta, actually!) has the surname Mc Gaughlin - another one ripe for mistranscription.

It isn't beyond the bounds of possibility that he married one Jane, she died, he married another Jane.

OC

[kiterunner]

Found them in 1861 but it's just Mary and Jane, address and details the same as in 1851, except Jane's birthplace is Douglas, Isle of Man. There is a Jane Saul death Oct-Dec 1861 Liverpool, but most likely if you got the death certificate the informant would be Mary, which wouldn't help much.

There are some Jane Crane baptisms at Douglas, Isle of Man, at around the right time.

I had a look at the Lancashire will search and there are a couple of possibles for William Saul:
William Saul, Liverpool, gentleman, Jun 1834
William Saul of Liverpool, merchant, 26 Sep 1820

But if either of these is your William then he would have died before Jane jr's marriage so not likely to be of much help either.

[kiterunner]

Sorry, OC, I'm confused about Henrietta - where did you get that from?

[Olde Crone]

Post #8, Kate - I'm off doing my own thing here, lol!

OC

[kiterunner]

She's listed on the GRO index as Henrietta Louisa McEntegart, Jan-Mar 1842, Liverpool; is the info that you posted up from Lancashire BMD?

[kiterunner]

Oh dear, there are loads of Mary Stewart deaths in Liverpool, but none with the middle name Rosanna.

[kiterunner]

I suspect if we could find Mary Saul's marriage to a Mr Stewart, it would be at the same place as Jane Saul's marriage to Thomas McEntegart. But if only we knew where!

[ElizabethHerts]

I've been trying to search on FMP for the Isle of Man.

Does anyone know how? The Isle of Man is not given as an option under counties and I don't know how to specify just results with a birth in the Isle of Man!:o

[kiterunner]

As far as I know, there isn't any Isle of Man stuff on findmypast, Elizabeth.

[kiterunner]

If we could find out where baby Jane McEntegart who died in 1837 was buried, it's possible she may have been buried with some of the Sauls.

[ElizabethHerts]

As far as I know, there isn't any Isle of Man stuff on findmypast, Elizabeth.

My daughter's fiance has family from the Isle of Man and in the past I have looked them up with him on the census, but I suppose that must have been when I still had Ancestry. Why don't FMP have Isle of Man censuses too? I find that most strange.

[kiterunner]

Oops, sorry, they do have Isle of Man censuses on there, not sure if they have all of them.

[Margaret in Burton]

Isle of Man census are available but not Isle of Man BMD

[bidston]

wow guys, some great stuff there, would really love to have some link to the isle of man, worked as an agency nurse there many times, great place, i have ancestry so will look for isle of man as well

[bidston]

found a couple of jane crane's born douglas 1782 isle of man, if i got the marriage certificate for william saul to jane crane in liverpool 1811, would that help

[kiterunner]

It won't be like a civil registration marriage certificate, just a parish register entry (i.e. it probably won't tell you their fathers' names, but will have witnesses' names), and you would need to get a copy from whichever record office holds the parish registers for Liverpool.

But we still haven't managed to find anything to confirm that Jane Saul who married Thomas McEntegart was the same Jane Saul who was the daughter of William Saul and Jane Crane, so there's not much point going back that far yet anyway.

[ElizabethHerts]

Re. FMP and the Isle of Man, on the drop-down county list the Isle of Man is given, but not for 1851.

The first one I tried yesterday was 1851 and the Isle of Man is not on the drop-down county list there. Does this mean that census returns for the Isle of Man cannot be accessed on FMP or is there another way around it? I know I tried to search and didn't get any results.

[kiterunner]

It says on their help page that they are currently missing the Isle of Man for 1851 but it should be added soon.

[ElizabethHerts]

Thanks, Kiterunner.

*Now why couldn't I find that.*

[bidston]

found a william saul at good old st nicholas church in liverpool again, 26 june 1789, father richard saul, mother mary

[dillington]

I have just come to this site and see the comments about Jane SAUL m. Thomas McEntega/ert . They married ( both signed) 15/09/1835 at St Phillips Hardman St Liverpool, they lived across road in Clarence Street. 1st children were TWINS William & Jane b. 17/09/1837 and Jane died age 1 month and is buried in St Johns graveyard , behind St Georges Hall. Their daughter Henrietta Louisa McENTEGART was b. 28/02/1842 and was my GGrandmother and m. John ROONEY 1875 at St Peters.
Jane SAUL's parents were William SAUL b.c.1789 and Jane CRANE b.c. 1785 . They m. St Annes 7/04/1811 . Jane CRANES parents were Henry CRANE , a Mariner, and Mary (Molly) BIRCHALL.They m. St Nics 10/09/1783 ( both signed) Janes brother, Henry CRANE b. c. 1787 , his father listed as deceased on Christening at St Nics.
*** I would be interested in further info about this family**].
Incidentally, Frances Amelia McENTEGART b.1847 m. John DUNNE 24/09/1867 at West Derby Reg. Office. She died age 76 in 1923

[HarrysMum]

Welcome dillington.

I'm sure bidston will be very happy to see this.

[bidston]

oh my god, just saw this by accident, wow, so much information, got me fired up again, thank you dillington, where are you out of interest :D

[bidston]

hi dillington, i presume you have your henrietta at 28 bright street,everton in 1851 age 9 and 18 deacon street, everton in 1861 age 18 - unemployed and 32 holton street, west derby in 1871

age 27 - a shop assistant

[bidston]

hi all,have found a william saul christening 7th july 1789 at st nicholas church, liverpool, could this be my william?

have also found a christening for mary birchall at prescot ( now part of liverpool ) for 1756, can anyone find any more details please

[bidston]

hi again, does anyone know if the isle of man records are completed yet, i know there was a problem 2 years ago, am looking for jane crane born 1785 who married william saul in 1811, i have her in 1861 aged 80 and born douglas, isle of man, her parents though were married in liverpool in 1783 but i suppose mum could have gone to the isle of man for the birth

her father was henry crane, a mariner who i presume is the isle of man connection, funny enough i worked as a nurse on the isle of man once and was amazed that nearly all surnames began with the letter C, in the clinic i worked at we had three annie corletts, one a nurse on days, one a nurse on nights and the other a patient, blooming confusing i tell you

[Merry]

How do you know Jane Crane's parents were the ones who married in Liverpool if you don't have her baptism? As she is 70 in 1851 and 80 in 1861 wouldn't she be likely to have been born earlier than 1785 (and before the 1783 marriage)?

I have loads of Cranes in my tree (a few hundred) and dozens of Birchalls (various spellings), but none from the Isle of Man!

[Merry]

This looks a possible:

Name: Jane Craine
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 23 Apr 1782
Baptism/Christening Place: SAINT GEORGE,DOUGLAS,ISLE OF MAN,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Thos Craine
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Jane Cudd
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C03821-1
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 106717
Reference Number:

[Merry]

Here is a potential (submitted though) entry for the parents of the above Jane Crane:

THOMAS CRAINE Pedigree
Male Family

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages:
Spouse: JANE CUD Family
Marriage: 31 DEC 1776 Braddan, Isle Of Man, England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Messages: Record submitted by a member of the LDS Church.


I'm not saying these are definitely the right people, just offering an alternative to the Liverpool ones!

[bidston]

hi merry, the post from dillington had the parents of jane crane as henry crane and mary birchall, i think almost all of my family had children before they were married, oops

even the reason i came onto geneology in the first place, was to try and find the easiest of searches, i.e. who was my grandfather, after two years nothing apart from the fact that my father and his brother were born 1910 and 1912 and my grandparents didn't marry until 1915 in finsbury park, islington of all places, must have snuck away so the neighbours didn't find out

so i am afraid it runs in the family

[Merry]

Maybe you should send dillington a personal message asking him about the Liverpool connection, as he may have his settings to trigger an email if he gets a pm on this site.

I wouldn't be happy with the Liverpool marriage without a matching baptism on the IoM or some other proof (for instance, a will) showing a connection.

[bidston]

how do you do that, i need to set this up for myself, i only spotted the message by accident and may have missed others

[kiterunner]

To have PM's sent by email: Quick Links - User Control Panel - Edit Options - and tick "Receive email notification of new private messages".

To receive an email if you get replies on this thread, you subscribe to the thread and set to "Instant notification by email", info on here:

FAQ subscriptions (http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/faq.php?faq=vb3_user_profile#faq_vb3_subscriptions )

[bidston]

i have looked but can't see it, how do you subscribe to a thread?

[kiterunner]

Click on "Thread Tools".

[bidston]

many thanks,will have a go