Trying to sort out my Spencers.

[Gert in Oz]

The only place i can find Joseph Key born abt 1853 Chesterfield is on the 1861 census as a grandson of my gg grandfather John Spencer, but who were his parents ?

1861 census
John Spencer 58
Sarah Spencer 22 married John Simnett 1863 in London
Thomas Spencer 18
Jane Spencer 14 married George Gatliffe 1868 in Burton on Trent
Hannah Spencer 12 not found after 1861
Joseph Key 8

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1861&h=22069041&ti=5538&indiv=try&gss=pt&ssrc=pt_t2987106_p-1422729340_g32768


Other daughters of John Spencer (my main suspects) and not found after 1841
Elizabeth b. 1829 born Matlock
Anne b. 1833


Also not found after 1851
Lucy b.1840
Frances b.1842

And
Mary b. 1844 my great grandmother married John Tomlinson 1863 in Derby

All other children born Temple Normanton Derbyshire (Chesterfield)

This family has bugged me for a while now, as i cannot find a death for John either, on Mary`s marriage cert 13 Dec 1863 John is a Agent (same as 1861 census) does not say deceased, but on Sarahs 21 Dec 1863 it says John is a Miller (as 1841 & 1851 census) and is deceased.

If anyone can help in finding who Joseph Key belonged to or what happened to the other daughters please, it will be very much appreciated.

[Margaret in Burton]

Ooh these blinky Spencer's of your's Sylvia, they do keep cropping up don't they. I'll get a cuppa and have a read through what you've posted again.

[Gert in Oz]

They do Marg, but i`m not looking for Sarah and Mary this time

[Merry]

There wasn't an Emma Spencer then?

[Gert in Oz]

No Merry, no Emmas in this part of the family

[Merry]

Is ths him?

Births Mar 1853

Kay Joseph Chesterfield 7b 464

[Gert in Oz]

Very well could be thank you Merry.

[Merry]

I can't find him after 1861 and there are several possible deaths before the age at death appears on the census.

Not having much luck with Kay/Key marriages to a Spencer, but it could have been a second marriage for Miss Spencer, or some part of it incorrectly indexed. Maybe you could ditch the Spencers and take up with a family with a less common surname??!!!

[Gert in Oz]

The Spencers married into the Tomlinsons Merry, which is another bee in my bonnet LOL

There is a private tree on Ancestry with Joseph Key on it , but i can`t get a answer from them. Have tried a couple of times.

Thank you for trying

[Merry]

I don't think they have his parents, as if you put Key in the father's surname box the result for Joseph no longer appears. I also tried Spencer for his mmn but that stopped the entry appearing too.

[Gert in Oz]

I`m going to send for that birth cert Merry, will find out one way or another if hes mine,

[Merry]

Let us know when you get it!

[Gert in Oz]

Dispatch date 23 Feb, i should get it about a week later

[Gert in Oz]

Birth cert has arrived and says.

Joseph Kay born 31 Jan 1853 Auklands Yard, Beetwell street Chesterfield.

Father-Joseph Kay
Mother-Ann Kay formally Spencer

I`m still having trouble finding these 2 anywhere

[kiterunner]

What's the father's occupation, Sylvia?

[kiterunner]

There's a possible Joseph Kay / Ann Spencer marriage in Sheffield district, Oct-Dec 1850, vol 22 page 587. I bet it's not on Sheffield BMD to confirm who married whom, though, but I'll have a try.

[kiterunner]

Nope, not on Sheffield BMD. I don't think I've ever found anything on there. Maybe we can do it another way. These are the people who got married, anyway, and it looks as though there is one who doesn't belong:

Marriages Dec 1850

Cotton William Sheffield 22 587
Exley Sarah Ann Sheffield 22 587
Joell Ann Sheffield 22 587
Johnson John Sheffield 22 587
Kay Joseph Sheffield 22 587
Parkin Harriet Sheffield 22 587
Roadhouse George Sheffield 22 587
Spencer Ann Sheffield 22 587
Winters Sarah Sheffield 22 587

[kiterunner]

There's a baptism on FamilySearch which may or may not belong to your family:
Sarah Ann Kay born 29 June 1857, baptised 4 Aug 1857 Wesleyan Methodist, Matlock Circuit, Derbyshire, parents Joseph Kay and Ann.

[Gert in Oz]

Fathers Occupation is Joiner

[kiterunner]

How about this household on the 1851?

15 Harvest Lane, Brightside Bierlow, Sheffield:
Ann Jardine Head Widow 56 Domestic Bramley Yorks
...

Joseph Kay Lodger Mar 22 Joiner Bullwood Nottingham
Ann Wife Mar 19 domestic Normington Derbys
Clara Daur 1 Sheffield Yorks

...

[kiterunner]

And I typed that before I saw your reply saying he was a joiner!

[Margaret in Burton]

So, if that's the marriage they should be together in 1851.

Off to try to find them.

[Margaret in Burton]

*ugger

Kate got there first:d

[kiterunner]

Okay, in 1861 10 P H, Phillip St., Hulme, Manchester,
Joseph Kay Lodger Mar 35 Joiner Nottinghamshire
but his family aren't with him.

[Margaret in Burton]

How about this household on the 1851?

15 Harvest Lane, Brightside Bierlow, Sheffield:
Ann Jardine Head Widow 56 Domestic Bramley Yorks
...

Joseph Kay Lodger Mar 22 Joiner Bullwood Nottingham
Ann Wife Mar 19 domestic Normington Derbys
Clara Daur 1 Sheffield Yorks

...

Do you think that should be Bullwell?

[Gert in Oz]

That looks interesting Kite, Ann was baptised 1833 in Chesterfield and is on the 1841census and then i lose her

[kiterunner]

Looks as if Clara died in 1854, so we won't find her on the 1861.

[kiterunner]

I certainly can't think of a Bullwood, so I wouldn't be surprised, Marg. It says Normington instead of Normanton, after all!

[Gert in Oz]

Okay, in 1861 10 P H, Phillip St., Hulme, Manchester,
Joseph Kay Lodger Mar 35 Joiner Nottinghamshire
but his family aren't with him.

Young Joseph is with his grandfather in 1861 aged 8, hmm wonder if Ann had died

Thank you Kite, it does look like them

[kiterunner]

Ooh, Clara's birth is actually on Sheffield BMD, but it doesn't have mother's maiden name on there.

[kiterunner]

Well, Joseph senior is down as married on the 1861 but it could be a mistake.

[Gert in Oz]

I certainly can't think of a Bullwood, so I wouldn't be surprised, Marg. It says Normington instead of Normanton, after all!

Would be Temple Normanton, thats where they lived, its part of Chesterfield

[kiterunner]

On the 1871 Joseph sr is married to Eliza from Yorkshire so I guess Ann had died by then.

[Gert in Oz]

Gosh your quick, i`m having trouble keeping up, being a one finger typist

[Margaret in Burton]

There are lots of possibles for a death especially if she died pre 1866 when there is no age listed in the index.

I'll take a look on the NBI

[Margaret in Burton]

Nothing jumps out.

[Gert in Oz]

Thank you for looking Marg and thank you Kite for the census