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View Full Version : Can I sort Malc out here- 1891 needed

JessBow
14-02-10, 05:35
1881 for ref

WILSON, George Head Married M 30 1851 Cab Driver
Yardley Gobyon Northamptonshire

WILSON, Jane Wife Married F 26 1855 Shoe Machinist
NorthamptonNorthamptonshire

CLAYSON, Elizth Lodger Single F 24 1857 Laundress
WrexhamDenbighshire
Wales

CLAYSON, Edward Lodgers Son Single M 3 1878
Northampton Northamptonshire

I think Elizabeth Clayson Marries Thomas Ives in Northampton in Sept 1889.

by 1891 have they all morphed into Ives, incl another son, born after Edward but before the marriage ( 1882 ish) ?
JessBow
14-02-10, 05:35
Marriages Sep 1889

Clayson Elizabeth Northampton 3b 155 <<<<
IVES Thomas Northampton 3b 155 <<<<
Lee Abraham Northampton 3b 155
Lewis Hannah Williams Northampton 3b 155
HarrysMum
14-02-10, 06:21
Jess...I can't help as I don't have Ancestry anymore.....but a great idea to try here. I thought about it after seeing it on FB but as usual, did nothing...
Merry
14-02-10, 07:17
Did you mean you are looking for the 1891 or 1901?

The info about the 1891 is wrong (EDIT Sorry see next post). Edward is 13 so same child as was Edward Clayton previously. There is also George 8 and Harriet E 6. (Ives for both)

Ref: RG12; Piece: 1200; Folio 62; Page 19
Merry
14-02-10, 07:18
Sorry, read your post again and got it wrong the first time! All seems as expected in 1891.

So, Malc has the 1891 already?
Merry
14-02-10, 07:21
1901: RG13; Piece: 1428; Folio: 151; Page: 23

Nothing odd there. Edward has left home. A new child, Bertha 7.
Merry
14-02-10, 07:26
Thomas Ives was married in 1881 but his wife isn't with him.

Marriages Jun 1877

Adams Samuel Northampton 3b 142
Ives Thomas Northampton 3b 142
Linnell Mary Ann Northampton 3b 142
Ralley Phillis Northampton 3b 142


or

Marriages Sep 1875

BECK Jane Northampton 3b 160
IVES Thomas Northampton 3b 160
SHAW Frances Northampton 3b 160
Wilcox Charles Northampton 3b 160

(or both!) seem likely.....
Merry
14-02-10, 07:32
Having trouble finding the original Mrs Ives in 1881.

I don't know that this is what I'm supposed to be doin though! lol
Merry
14-02-10, 07:36
There's an Annie Maria Ives married, no OH, same age as Thomas with two young children, living as a lodger in Warkworth, Northants.......EDIT, but her OH is Walter Manning Ives, so forget that one!
JessBow
14-02-10, 07:40
Malc posed a problem on facebook, Merry, which was quite confusing.

this 1881 appears to be correct ( as above in opener)

dont have Ancestry

I want that Elizabeth, presumably married to Thomas Ives, in 1891 census

I think(?!!) we are looking for Malc grandad, who I assume is a Ives, but not Edward, I dont think BUT born 1882 - you are prob confuddld as the rest of us now.Charles comes into it somewhere ( I think)

Brain has just gone ping - maybe Eliz nee Clayson is his stepmum - yes Jess wake up
Merry
14-02-10, 07:48
At the mo I would say:

Edward = mum Miss Clayson, dad unknown
George = parents could be either Miss C and Thomas Ives or Miss C and someone else or Thomas Ives and his 1st wife.
Harriet = same as George
Bertha = Mum Elizabeth C/I and Thomas.

Does that make sense? Not good at typing in bed! lol
JessBow
14-02-10, 07:51
I dont think the 1875 Thomas/Francis marriage is the same bloke.
He is a butcher in 1881, with son Arthur

* 1881 shows two thomas Ives within a spit of one another , one is a butcher the other a shoe finisher,
Merry
14-02-10, 07:53
I think it's pretty likely all the children belong to Elizabeth (but not def to Thomas!) as there are Clayson registrations for all three before the marriage..
Merry
14-02-10, 07:55
The shoe finisher is the one who is with Eliz in 1891.
JessBow
14-02-10, 07:58
BUT- which was what I was looking for at the outset, What are they masquerading as in 1891? post me up what you think is the right one please.is Elizabeth born Wrexham? that appears to be the clincher
Merry
14-02-10, 07:59
Just looked at 1911. I can see that Thomas and Eliz are still together and Bertha is with them. Struggling to work out who else is with them, but there's no Charles.
Merry
14-02-10, 08:04
BUT- which was what I was looking for at the outset, What are they masquerading as in 1891? post me up what you think is the right one please.is Elizabeth born Wrexham? that appears to be the clincher

OK 1891:

Thos head m 34 boot finisher b Northampton
Eliz wife m 35 b Nth Wales Wrexham
Edward son 13 Shoe Hand b Northampton
George son 8 scholar b ditto
Harriet E dau 6 scholar b ditto

All Ives.

Addy: 18 Devonshire St Duston, Northants.

Maybe Malc is worrying about the number of kids when they had only been married five mins?! I think it's all fine and dandy except for not being certain who the father is in each case as Thomas might have been happy with the first Mrs Ives and Elizabeth may have had those kids with someone else.

Need to find the first Mrs Ives, but have to get up and get going now, so will have a look in this evening.
Merry
14-02-10, 08:08
I can't find this Phillis, who could help sort out who married who:

Marriages Jun 1877

Adams Samuel Northampton 3b 142
Ives Thomas Northampton 3b 142
Linnell Mary Ann Northampton 3b 142
Ralley Phillis Northampton 3b 142

she seems to be local:

Births Jun 1859
RALLEY Phillis Northampton 3b 90
Merry
14-02-10, 08:12
Ooh, she says she is single and spelled: Phyllis Rolley in 1881.

Must go now......
Margaret in Burton
14-02-10, 09:37
*Pops in and pops out again, looks complicated*

Anything you want me to do? I got lost.
HarrysMum
14-02-10, 09:44
*Pops in and pops out again, looks complicated*

Anything you want me to do? I got lost.



Maybe put the kettle on....I got lost as well...
Margaret in Burton
14-02-10, 09:51
Glad I'm not the only one Libby.

tea or coffee?:D:D
Merry
14-02-10, 18:21
So, Jess....this is how it seems to me.....

Malc's grandfather may be George Ives/Clayson as he says the boy was born about 1882.

There is this registration:

Births Sep 1882
Clayson George Northampton 3b 68

but there isn't one under Ives.

It looks as if Elizabeth's third known pregnancy may have resulted in twins (would def need checking though) as there are these entries:

Births Sep 1884
Clayson Harriett Elizabeth Northampton 3b 65
Clayson Thomas Alfred Northampton 3b 65

Deaths Sep 1884
Clayson Thomas Alfred 0 Northampton 3b 46

So, did Elizabeth wait until this birth to name a baby for her partner or was it that this was the first pregnancy that Thomas was a part of?

Do you think Malc imagines there was a Mr Clayson rather than this being Elziabeth's maiden surname?

I had a look to see what happened to Thomas's wife, Phillis Ralley after she appeared as a single person in 1881.

In 1891 the only vague match I can see for her is as the wife of Mark Smith in St Martin in the Fields, London. Needless to say, there is no marriage showing for a Mark Smith to a Phyllis/Phillis anyone!

In any case, it would well be that the marriage between Elizabeth and Thomas was a bigamous one.