View Full Version : Please help me with my dilemma
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
13-02-10, 18:53
As you know I have a Woods family (Great Grandfather is Richard). I have him on census from 1881 onwards as he is born late 1870's, 1901 and 1911 are definitely him as I know of his marriages. His father is given as John (a Gardener on UK marriage cert in 1909) I also have his WW1 service records.
Now this is where the dilemma arises.
Where it asks for siblings his service records state that he has older brothers Edward, William and John, and younger Walter and Joseph.
I definitely have the right service record as it also names his wife.
I cannot find Edward on any census unless of course his other name is James. Also why are the sisters not listed as siblings?
Any thoughts you have on the matter I would be grateful for.
Thanking you in advance.
Margaret in Burton
13-02-10, 18:55
Fi
Can you post the census refs you have him on?
kiterunner
13-02-10, 19:10
Does it ask for siblings who are in the services? I seem to remember seeing something like that in service papers of one of my rellies but it may have been from before WW1.
I've tried and tried to see if I can work out who you are talking about, but it's too difficult, sorry. Will have to wait for the census refs!
The only WW1 records i've seen with siblings/parents completed is where they have been KIA in WW1.
The first service record I looked at was, by chance, for a Richard who married in 1909, but as I couldn't find any ref to brothers (have never seen that before) I don't know if it's the right one for your g-grandfather.
Trouble is it took an age to look through the one, so I MUST WAIT (lol not good at that!) for further info!!
Am going away to do something else for a bit, so I don't keep looking at this thread!
I was astonished to see that form too whe looking at WW1 Army record of someone who'd died.
It showed wife and her address
parents
then brothers
then sisters
all separately.
However it must have been completed later as it gave his widow's married name and she married 3 years after he died of his wounds.
Margaret in Burton
13-02-10, 19:48
We applied for my husbands grandfathers WW1 record about 20 years ago. Had to provide proof of next of kin then.
On Ancestry there is a copy of the letter my father in law wrote to ask for the record in our name and a copy of his birth cert. Our address is on that letter and my father in law is still alive and his full birth cert in on show on Ancestry.
Don't know what to do to stop that and anyway will Ancestry take any notice? This stuff was obviously put with the army record and scanned at the same time.
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
13-02-10, 20:03
in fact I dont have him on 1901 as he was in boer war. His second marriage was in 1909 to Edith Francis Platt. His first marriage took place in Bombay. I have so much papers, I just realised the siblings are listed on his boer war records. These records are not online.
His ww1 reg number is pw850.
1891 census I have for Richard is RG12/2934
1881 RG11 3647
I do know that some of Richard's children have taken his mothers maiden name (Atkin) as their middle name.
Thank you
Margaret in Burton
13-02-10, 20:05
Fi, that's not the full census ref. Is that all you have?
Margaret in Burton
13-02-10, 20:08
Found it in 1891
Is this it?
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=6598&iid=LANRG12_2933_2936-0196&fn=Richard&ln=Woods&st=d&ssrc=&pid=25308973
Margaret in Burton
13-02-10, 20:10
That ref for 1881 brings up a different Richard
1881
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7572&iid=LANRG11_3643_3647-1202&fn=John&ln=Wood&st=d&ssrc=&pid=8934571
&
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=7572&path=Lancashire.Toxteth+Park.ALL.62.24&sid=&gskw=John+Wood&cr=1
That ref for 1881 brings up a different Richard
Why do you think that Marg? Parents, Mary E, Richard & Joseph all match?
Fi can't see the page with the siblings on his service records, can you post the link?
His no 850 brings up one result with the address 194 New Chester Road, Cheshire, there's another 2 records for Richards Woods' with the same address but can't see it in any of them?
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
13-02-10, 20:27
that is the ref's on the census pages
Margaret in Burton
13-02-10, 20:28
Why do you think that Marg? Parents, Mary E, Richard & Joseph all match?
The 1891 I came up with from the ref Fi gave was this one.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=6598&iid=LANRG12_2933_2936-0196&fn=Richard&ln=Woods&st=d&ssrc=&pid=25308973
Parents John and Ann and Richard is 13
1881 I get this one
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7572&iid=LANRG11_3647_3651-0059&fn=Richard&ln=Woods&st=d&ssrc=&pid=8936611
mother Mary and Richard is 15
Which is the right one?
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
13-02-10, 20:30
sorry, I did say in my last message that I got it wrong and the siblings are on his boer war records. Apologies for the confusion
Margaret in Burton
13-02-10, 20:30
that is the ref's on the census pages
There is more to it than that. eg 1891
RG12; Piece: 2934; Folio 86; Page 46
The 1891 I came up with from the ref Fi gave was this one.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=6598&iid=LANRG12_2933_2936-0196&fn=Richard&ln=Woods&st=d&ssrc=&pid=25308973
Parents John and Ann and Richard is 13
1881 I get this one
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7572&iid=LANRG11_3647_3651-0059&fn=Richard&ln=Woods&st=d&ssrc=&pid=8936611
mother Mary and Richard is 15
Which is the right one?
Ah the ref Fi posted 3647 brings up Richard WOODS, the one I found also 3647 is Richard Woods, but he's indexed as WOOD.
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
13-02-10, 20:34
The 1881 census is RG11 3647. The famnily are listed over 2 pages. Parents are together with son John on bottom of one page then others are on 2nd page.
The 1881 census is RG11 3647. The famnily are listed over 2 pages. Parents are together with son John on bottom of one page then others are on 2nd page.
1881
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7572&iid=LANRG11_3643_3647-1202&fn=John&ln=Wood&st=d&ssrc=&pid=8934571
&
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=7572&path=Lancashire.Toxteth+Park.ALL.62.24&sid=&gskw=John+Wood&cr=1
Which is these refs indexed as WOOD.
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
13-02-10, 20:37
on the 1881 my Richard Woods is 4, but in reality he is younger than that.
Margaret in Burton
13-02-10, 20:43
Fi, the ref you posted covers a lot of pages. You need the folio and page as well.
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
13-02-10, 20:47
ok, I am sorry. I just took the ref off the page that I printed out for my file. I will have a look on ancestry for it.
Thanks again
Piece: 3647 Folio: 50 Page: 23
Piece: 3647 Folio: 50 Page: 24
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
13-02-10, 21:19
Thanks JayG. I cant find him at all on 1881 now.
However my problem still exists, what happened to Edward, why as an older sibling does he not appear anywhere on the census with the family but is obviously still alive in 1898 - 1902 when Richard completed the papers for his Boer War Service.
They're indexed as WOOD in 1881 tho the image does day Woods.
Maybe Edward was his middle name & appears on the census under his first name?
Blimey. I only went away and tidied up and had a bath. So, the army record I ploughed through was the right one all the time.
I've got quite confused about what we are looking for now?
Should we be working back slowly from the 1911 which you have? (can we have the ref for that one, or preferably the full transcribed details, as I don't have access to the 1911 at the moment?)
Is the problem still that Richard has the wrong siblings and if so, on which census is that?
Thanks JayG. I cant find him at all on 1881 now.
However my problem still exists, what happened to Edward, why as an older sibling does he not appear anywhere on the census with the family but is obviously still alive in 1898 - 1902 when Richard completed the papers for his Boer War Service.
Is it just this one brother who is the problem then?
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
13-02-10, 21:36
the 1891 and 1881 census are the only census that have him with his siblings. Edward is nowhere to be seen on any census even further back. in 1901 Richard is in the Boer war and on 1911 he is with his wife who he married in 1909, his youngest child by his first wife (she died in childbirth) and his next daughter with my great grandmother.
Also Richard's female siblings are not mentioned on the service records as his siblings.
So, it's not that you have the wrong family then? Just that there is a brother missing?
Do you have the 1871 census?
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
13-02-10, 22:24
I have a 1871 census but Richard had not been born in time for this census and there is no Edward on it either. What confuses me and why I asked for help is why is Edward mentioned as a sibling but cant be found on census images with his family. And why why Richard's sisters are not mentioned as siblings in the boer war records.
I have just had a look on freebmd and found a Edward Atkin Woods born in 1864 in West Derby (same area as others) but still cant find him on any census'.
Anyway I am sorry for causing you all confusion. I am off to bed now. Please dont worry about this thread anymore.
Thanks to everyone for their time and help with this.
kiterunner
13-02-10, 22:31
Edward Atkin(s) Woods got married in 1900 in West Derby district to either Annie Holman or Sarah Ann Jolliffe (the other one married William Kenworthy).
kiterunner
13-02-10, 22:33
Oh, and then an Edward A Wood or Woods married Georgina Wedekind in 1914 in West Derby district.
kiterunner
13-02-10, 22:36
Okay, having checked with Lancashire BMD, the 1900 marriage was to Sarah A Jolliffe or Tennant at St Leonard, Bootle, and the 1914 marriage was at St Lawrence, Kirkdale, though unfortunately it doesn't confirm whether the groom's middle name was Atkin on that one.
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
13-02-10, 22:50
Thank you Kiterunner. I am going to order some certs tomorrow so will order of those and the birth one i found for 1864 on freebmd.
kiterunner
14-02-10, 09:47
I had a look at the 1891 and 1901 censuses last night but no luck.
kiterunner
14-02-10, 10:52
Hmmm... Sarah Ann Tennant married James Henry Jolliffe in 1875! If she married the Edward Atkin Woods who was born in 1864 then she was a lot older than him. The most likely death for James Henry Jolliffe is in 1896 in Liverpool, age 49, so maybe we can find James and Sarah in 1881 and / or 1891 now and use that info to look for Sarah and Edward in 1901.
kiterunner
14-02-10, 10:55
Right, got James and Sarah in 1891 - Sarah is age 34 and born Essex Stratford, and they have a daughter Sarah A age 9 born Liverpool. James 44 born Liverpool, plus there is a William Tennant 26 born Liverpool, probably Sarah's brother.
kiterunner
14-02-10, 11:01
So, armed with that information, back to 1901 and I've found Sarah but she isn't with Edward!
8 Threlfall Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool
Sarah A Woods Head M 46 Charwoman Essex Stratford
Sarah A Jolliffe Daur S 19 Charwoman Lancs Liverpool
Albert Do Son S 7 Lancs Do
And there is a death for Sarah A Woods Mar 1913 Toxteth Park age 56.
Aha! And now, on 1911, I've found at Toxteth Park:
E Atkin Woods 46
S Anne Woods 50
Albert Jolliffe 17
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
14-02-10, 11:10
thank you so much Kiterunner, I have not long woken up and I have seen you have found so much.
kiterunner
14-02-10, 11:12
I still haven't found him on the 1871 - 1891 censuses to see why he wasn't with his family, if he is your Edward, though.
kiterunner
14-02-10, 11:26
Another aha!
1871:
7 Dolling Street, Toxteth Park
William Chase Head Mar 52 Rigger Yarmouth Norfolk
Jane Chase Wife Mar 52 Rigger's Wife Liverpool
Edward Atkin Nephew 6 Liverpool
Piece: 3797; Folio: 72; Page: 2
Please tell me Jane is Ann's sister!
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
14-02-10, 11:35
It is very strange that Edward does not apear on any census until 1911, I wonder where he was.
Edward is the oldest sibling of my Richard Woods. Their parents married in 1863. I did wonder if Edward might be in boar war but he married in the middle of it.
kiterunner
14-02-10, 11:42
Did you see my post # 45 just above yours, Fi?
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
14-02-10, 11:58
i saw it but i been searching for Jane but cant see her being Ann's sister as yet
The couple Kite found in 1871 are in Liverpool in 1861, with a Mary A Jones aged 19 listed as sister.
In 1851 she's living with them as Mary D Jones aged 12.
Is Richard's mother Ann Atkin the daughter of John & Mary?
If i've got the right family in 1851 Ann has brothers Richard, Edward & John, so it makes sense her naming her sons after her brothers.
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
14-02-10, 12:21
so Jane is a Jones then I would assume by that JayG. Thanks
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
14-02-10, 12:24
Is Richard's mother Ann Atkin the daughter of John & Mary?
If i've got the right family in 1851 Ann has brothers Richard, Edward & John, so it makes sense her naming her sons after her brothers.
Yes JayG you have the right family thanks. Just found that myself too. :)
1871 Toxteth Park
John Atkin Head Married 52 Gardener born Garton, Lancs
Mary Atkin Wife Married 60 born Shoting? Lancs
Edward E Woods grandson 7 months born Liverpool
Richard Kay grandson 5 months born Liverpool
Should the 7 months really say 7???
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
14-02-10, 12:33
I have looked for John's marriage and I have found that he could of married 1 of 3 Mary's in the quarter of 1840.
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
14-02-10, 12:38
I will check 1861 and see who is living with them then
Fi see my reply on post 54!!!
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
14-02-10, 12:50
He appears to be with an Ann in 1861 but with Mary in census's either side of that.
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
14-02-10, 13:01
Yes I saw that too JayG thanks,. You could be right. Now I cant find John and Ann in 1871
kiterunner
14-02-10, 16:52
I'm not quite sure who you're looking for in 1871, but I was wondering whether Edward Atkin Woods was a sailor or soldier to explain his absence from most of the censuses, so I put in occupation sailor on the 1911 search and it matched!
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
14-02-10, 17:25
oohh so you say he was a sailor then Kiterunner. How did u work that out please.
kiterunner
14-02-10, 17:54
It was just a lucky guess, Fi.
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
14-02-10, 17:59
Hi Kiterunner, I have just done a search on the 1911 and I cant find Edward Atkin Woods at all. Please advise how you did this. I even tried Edward Woods with occupation as sailor.
kiterunner
14-02-10, 18:34
He's listed as E Atkin Woods.
Fi aka Wheelie Spice
14-02-10, 19:05
Thanks Kiterunner, I found him on the 1911 now. Maybe he is listed like that on the other census'.
I will have to see if i can find his service records when I go to Kew. In pencil or lighter pen on the 1911 it says Merchant Seaman.
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