Joseph and Susannah Brown - Quaker experts please!

[kiterunner]

This may be complicated, so bear with me...


My 3xg-grandfather Joseph Brown jr was baptised 11th Nov 1795 at St Mary Whitechapel in London, parents Joseph and Susannah, residence Alie Street. As far as I know, he was their first child, the others that I know of being Martha Bird Brown born 16th Jan 1798, Edward Brown baptised 11th May 1800 and William Brown born 4th Feb (or maybe 27th Jan) 1803 and baptised 18th Feb 1803 at St Botolph without Aldgate, residence Aldgate High Street, father's occupation butcher.

Susannah must have died soon after William's birth as Joseph sr married again on the 14th Feb 1804 to Sarah Clarke, at St George in the East. I haven't managed to find Susannah's burial yet though.

Now, especially with a name like Brown, it's no good just finding a marriage that looks likely and assuming it's right! I have found a likely marriage, but I'm trying to find some piece of evidence to prove it's my couple.

Joseph Brown bachelor of this parish married Susanna Stearns spinster of this parish on the 24th March 1794 at St Leonard Shoreditch, by banns, witnesses John Banfield and Henrietta Banfield. I've compared Joseph's signature with the one on the marriage to Sarah Clarke, but I'm not sure whether it's written by the same hand or not (please have a look and give your opinions! Both are on ancestry in the LMA records)

Susanna Stearnes born 9th October 1775 christened 12th November 1775 at St Dunstan in the East, London, parents Martin Stearnes and Martha. This is definitely the same Susanna as the one in the marriage above, because I've downloaded Martin Stearns' will (victualler of Lower Thames Street, London) and he mentions his daughter Susanna, leaving her all his properties when she reaches 21 or marries, but not saying what / where the properties were, and he makes John Banfield an executor. But unfortunately for me, Martin's will was written on the 18th Dec 1792 and proved on the 6th Nov 1793, before Susanna married Joseph, and so it doesn't say anything about her husband and children. There is also no mention of Martin's wife (Martha) so presumably she died before him. Also it doesn't look as if Martin had any other children apart from Susanna. I've downloaded John Banfield's will and Henrietta Banfield's will and didn't see any mention of the Brown family in them (if it is my Susanna then she died before the Banfields).

Martin does mention his father Martin Stearns of Lavenham, Suffolk in his will. There is a burial for Martin Stearns in 1795 which I assume is Martin senior. Martin jr's other executor was Thomas Rogers of Thames Street, wine merchant.

There is a marriage between Martin Stearnes and Martha Carpenter on the IGI, 26th Jan 1775 at Beddington, Surrey.

Phew! Any ideas how I can confirm that Susanna Stearns is my Susanna, please?

[kiterunner]

Sorry, forgot to say Henrietta Banfield was a spinster, so don't bother looking for a marriage between John and Henrietta!

[Phoenix]

One thing you could look for is a will for Martin senior. It might name Susannah. In the best of all worlds, a solicitor would have kept a receipt when the legacy was handed over and there would be another signature for you to compare.

Circumstantially, it looks good.

I wonder why Martin junior married at Beddington, btw? An attractive little church, but not exactly on London's doorstep.

[kiterunner]

Good idea, Phoenix. I've emailed Suffolk Record Office to ask if they have a Martin Stearns will. What I really need is for it to say "Susannah, wife of Joseph Brown, butcher" or something like that! I also downloaded a Samuel Stearns PCC will because he was also a victualler, but it doesn't look as though he was closely related to Martin.

I guess Martha Carpenter may have come from Beddington and that's why they married there?

[Phoenix]

Another possibility is to see if you could find a Stearns/Banfield connection and look for a will for John Banfield. Perhaps he died after Susannah and left something to her child/children?

[kiterunner]

I mentioned in my first post that I already downloaded John Banfield's will and Henrietta's too and neither of them mentioned the Browns. But I haven't traced Thomas Rogers yet, who was Martin Stearns' other executor, so I suppose I should have a look for him to see if he left a will.

[kiterunner]

Hmmm, I don't think this exactly counts as conclusive evidence yet but it made me cheer!

Martha "Corpenter" baptism on the IGI at Beddington, Surrey - I would swear this baptism wasn't there last time I looked! 27 Oct 1754, parents William and Martha. Other children of the same couple (or at least, people with the same names) include Wm 1753, Mary 1757, Ann 1767, Sibina 1769 and John 1777. So, looking for a William Carpenter marrying a Martha around 1752-3, I find a William Carpenter marrying a Martha Cator 19th July 1752 at St George Mayfair, Westminster. All right, it's not where I would expect them to marry, but my Joseph and Susanna had a grandson called Joseph Cator Brown, so maybe, just maybe, I am following the right lines!

[Phoenix]

Ooh, that sounds good. Cator isn't exactly the commonest of names.

[kiterunner]

Well, I've found out who Joseph Cator Brown was named after, in another will that I would never have been able to justify paying for on the off-chance:

Joseph Cator of Pleasant Row, Kingsland Road in the County of Middlesex, Gentleman, formerly of Bishopsgate Street Without in the City of London, Hatter, brother of Ruth Cator and uncle or cousin of a Naomi Bowry (wife of Thomas Wingfield Bowry). After leaving most of his estate to Ruth and Naomi, the first legacy is:

To Joseph Edward and William Brown the three sons of Joseph Brown of Eastham in the County of Essex Butcher £30 each.

And no mention of Joseph Brown's children by his second wife, so hopefully that means the connection was with Susannah.

It looks as though these Cators were Quakers, though, and I haven't come across a Quaker connection in this part of the tree so it may turn out he was just a friend of the family after all.

[kiterunner]

I've looked at the burial entry for Joseph Cator and he was 80 when he died in Dec 1822, so he must be the Joseph Cator whose birth is on BMD Registers, 1742, Wales, mother Martha Cator. (I got her name from the free search with a lucky guess! Not paid yet to see the father's name). There is also Ruth Cator 1745 Wales same mother. I've found in the past that the place name on BMD Registers isn't always accurate, so I'm not sure if they were really born in Wales or not till I pay up to look!

I also looked at the William Carpenter / Martha Cator marriage entry (1752) on the same site and it didn't give much info except to say that Martha was of Lambeth. It looks to have been a "Fleet" marriage. There isn't a birth listed for a Martha Cator so I wonder if this is the same Martha who was Joseph and Ruth's mother.

I've edited the thread title in the hope of attracting help from Quaker experts!

[ElizabethHerts]

Have you seen this link:

http://pickpatspage.com/the-cators-of-beckenham-woodbastwick

I wonder if there is a connection?

[ElizabethHerts]

The marriage of William Carpenter and Martha Cator can be also found here:

page 222

http://www.archive.org/stream/registersofbapti00inarmy#page/222/mode/2up/search/Cator

[JayG]

Kite using the BMD registers free search Joseph's father is Jonah as is Ruth's.

[JayG]

The ref for those births is RG6/1365 - Register of Births belonging to the Monthly Meeting of the South Division of Wales from 1660 to 1768, with a Register of Marriages from 1660 to 1771, and a Register of Burials from 1663 to 1775

[JayG]

To confirm what Elizabeth has found Martha's marriage ref is RG7/248 - Marriages and Baptisms from the May Fair Chapel Register performed according to the Rules of the Fleet, London from 1749 to 1753.

[kiterunner]

Thanks very much indeed for all that, Jay and Elizabeth. I had come across a Cator from Beckenham in my searching of wills etc earlier today but not sure if those Cators are connected with mine yet. There are some submitted birth records for Jonah Cator on the IGI which name his parents as Jonah Cator and Sarah Browne, and say he was born in Ross on Wye, so it does look likely to be the same family.

[kiterunner]

I've found this snippet on Google Books, from "West Wales Historical Records, the annual magazine of the... volume 12"

"Thomas Cornock having laid before the meeting that Jonah Cator have gone from his family and that he (apparently Cornock) wants relief for his wife and children, we, apprehending that they belong to Ross Monthly Meeting, we desire that Richard Summers and John Lewis to write to Friends at Ross of their necessities (1.2.1747)"

So Jonah and Martha had Joseph in 1742 and Ruth in 1745, then Jonah left in 1747, that could well fit with Martha marrying William Carpenter in a "Fleet" marriage in 1752, couldn't it? I haven't found anything that gives Martha's previous marital status for that marriage, but I guess the point of a Fleet marriage was that not too many questions were asked! I think I should try following up the rest of Martha's children by William Carpenter, in the hope of finding a Naomi somewhere in there (I haven't found Naomi's marriage to Thomas Wingfield Bowry yet to see what her maiden name was. There is a Thomas Wingfield Bowry marriage in 1776 on BMD Registers but I think that would be his first marriage, to a Sarah who died in 1787, and Naomi was his second wife, who he must have married soon after that. There is a John Wingfield birth listed in 1788 with parents Thomas Wingfield Bowry and Naomi, and then a Joseph Bowry in 1790 with the same parents, and some other children, some of whom seem to be listed with both surnames Wingfield and Bowry, but I don't know if that means Wingfield was Naomi's maiden name or more likely, Thomas sometimes used it as his surname.

[kiterunner]

I've got another little clue, from Naomi Bowry's will - she had a nephew called Samuel Simmons of Cannon Street in the City of London.

I've been having a look at the Quaker Family History Society website but finding it difficult to navigate - I've found a bit on it where it says they have produced "Digests" of Quaker BMD records for various counties, with Digest number 15 covering Herefordshire, but I can't see any info on how to order it! Or do you have to be a member to order digests, anyone know, please?

Ah, reading on, it doesn't look as though you can order copies but have to go to the record office to look at them. Would they include entries that aren't on the BMD Registers website, do you think?

[Merry]

Ah, at last a bit I can answer!

Yes the digests of BMDs may well not be found on the BMD registers site. The main problem with Quaker records is the number of times county boundaries get crossed for a particular Meeting and then the records turn up in an unexpected RO!

There are usually minutes of other events mentioned at Meeting, such as people being accepted into the Society or being disowned, as well as the BMD records.

[kiterunner]

Thanks, Merry. I bet Jonah Cator will have been disowned for leaving his family, and if they found out about Martha's Fleet wedding, I would have thought she would be? But their children seem to have stayed as Quakers, so maybe not. I presume that snippet I found on Google books about Jonah having left his family was from the Minutes, do you think so?

[Merry]

Probably.

Before the 1850s Quakers would be disowned for things like entering a C of E church, marrying out (of the Society), attending a university (:eek:) or the sort of bad behaviour people get ASBOs for these days!

After the mid 1850s they began to realised their membership was falling, so they allowed out marriages, though I would think if they didn't approve of the new partner for other reasons that might have caused a problem.

[JayG]

Kite I think you might have access but i've checked the Times archives & the 19th Cen newspaper 'Jonah Cator' but get no results.

[kiterunner]

Thanks, Jay. Yes, I do have access to those but thanks for looking!

[kiterunner]

Just thought to Google for Samuel Simmons of Cannon Street, and I've found out he was a coal merchant. Now, I'm sure I came across a Samuel Simmons, coal merchant, during my searches the other day, but I didn't know he was the right person. Hope I can find him again!

[kiterunner]

Yes, on the 1851 census he is a retired coal merchant age 63 of Bride Terrace, Islington, London, born Middlesex London, with wife Sarah age 59 born Middlesex St Martin in the Fields. And in 1841 at Cornwall Cottages, Islington, age 50, coal merchant, not born in county. 1861 at 15 Bride Terrace, Liverpool Road, Islington, age 73 born Middlesex London. Likely death in 1863, and Sarah died in 1866.

So Samuel was born about 1788 either in London, Middlesex or not. Just in case anyone's forgotten who he is, he's mentioned in Naomi Bowry's will as her nephew, and I'm hoping he was her nephew rather than her husband's, in which case it's possible that finding out who his parents were might help me find out who Naomi was and how she fits in!

[kiterunner]

Samuel Simmons junior of the parish of St Swithins London married Sarah Chambers 14 Aug 1814 at St Martin in the Fields, Westminster. So Samuel's father was also Samuel. Possible baptism 12 Feb 1786 at St Botolph without Aldersgate, parents Samuel and Sarah, who are probably Samuel Simmons and Sarah Cain who married 26 Jan 1784 at St Botolph. Hmmm, still doesn't get me anywhere yet...

[Merry]

There are some submitted birth records for Jonah Cator on the IGI which name his parents as Jonah Cator and Sarah Browne, and say he was born in Ross on Wye, so it does look likely to be the same family.


The Ross on Wye Cators (or some of them) are on The Peerage.com (and a few other similar sites) They seem to have moved to Bromley, Kent.

Don't have time to read all this either.....

http://www.authorsonline.co.uk/book/193/The_Cators_of_Beckenham_and_Woodbastwick/sample/

[kiterunner]

Yes, I had a look at the Peerage.com and I downloaded John Cator's will but it looks as if "my" Jonah was on a different branch of that family. Although it's only his wife Martha that I'm really interested in anyway because if I'm right, she's my ancestor but Jonah isn't.

[Merry]

I have read this thread quite a few times now, but I can't get to grips with it! If you find any more Quakers you should expect a lot of intermarrying, so you may find yourself related to a lot more people than you first think!

[kiterunner]

This recap may or may not help:

My ancestors were Joseph Brown, a butcher, and his wife Susannah. I've found a likely marriage between a Joseph Brown and a Susannah Stearns, and I'm trying to find some evidence to confirm that these are my Joseph and Susannah, because Joseph Brown is such a common name. Susannah Stearns' grandparents were William Carpenter and Martha Cator who had a "Fleet" marriage.
When I was looking at PCC wills for free at my local record office, one of the ones I looked at was a Joseph Cator (because one of the Browns in my tree was called Joseph Cator Brown), and he turned out to leave money to some of my Browns, but unfortunately he didn't specify if and how they were related to him. He also mentions a sister Ruth Cator and a niece Naomi Bowry, the widow of Thomas Wingfield Bowry. Ruth also left a will and she refers to Naomi as her cousin rather than niece. Naomi's will mentions a nephew Samuel Simmons.
Joseph and Ruth Cator were the children of Jonah and Martha of Ross on Wye, and I found a snippet about the fact that Jonah left his family when the children were young. This would have been just a few years before the Fleet wedding between William Carpenter and Martha Cator, so I'm thinking it's the same Martha, which would make Joseph Cator the half-great-uncle of the Browns he mentioned in his will.
But I'm still scrabbling around trying to fill in the gaps and see if I can confirm that it's the same Martha. It doesn't help that I haven't found her first marriage, to Jonah Cator, nor her burial as Martha Carpenter to check her age at death. I'm just hoping that someone somewhere in this bit of the tree will mention one of my Browns in their will and actually say how they're related!

Update Oct 2010 - Martha Cator who married William Carpenter was evidently the Martha Cater who was born 27 Aug 1729, parents Jonah and Martha, and baptised 8 Nov 1751 at St Leonard's Shoreditch, London, so she is Joseph and Ruth's sister, not their mother. Which means those Cators of Beckenham are distant relatives of mine after all! Hurray!