Some Marriage Certificate queries [Archive] - Genealogists' Forum

Muggins in Sussex

06-02-10, 20:57

I have just been looking at this certificate again and have a few queries :d

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o112/djangocrystal/Scannedat16-1-0920-072-1-1-1.jpg

Is the groom's occupation "Temporary Civil Servant"?...seems a bit odd.

Why would the bride's father's details have been ommitted?

Next to the witness Henry Oliphant's name is written "A K Platt" - I had thought this meant "otherwise known as Platt" - or is it that there was a 3rd witness called AK Platt?

Thank you

Joan

Jill

06-02-10, 21:08

I think AK Platt is a third witness. Presumably the bride knew nothing about her father.

As to the groom's occupation, I expect during 1917 lots of people ended up doing war work in odd places. Conscription started in 1916 I think so he has side stepped that for some reason.

Muggins in Sussex

06-02-10, 21:11

Thanks Jill :)

I am trying find out who Hester Appleton was and getting stuck!! LOL :d - If only her father's name had been on the cert!!

Your explanation for the groom's occupation makes perfect sense - Thank you :)

Jill

06-02-10, 21:20

There's an Alice K Platt born c1877 living in Kensington listed on the 1911 census (I don't have a sub to that), don't know if that rings any bells as the 3rd witness

Margaret in Burton

06-02-10, 21:27

There's an Alice K Platt born c1877 living in Kensington listed on the 1911 census (I don't have a sub to that), don't know if that rings any bells as the 3rd witness

I have a sub, I'll take a look

Muggins in Sussex

06-02-10, 21:29

Thanks again Jill :)- I hadn't seen that

Nothing rings any bells, because I'm not entirely sure what I am looking for! :d

What prompted me to send for the certificate was to see whether Clarence Edmund Platt could possibly be the same person as the Clarence T Platt on this cert ( who may well never have existed:eek:) - I know it's a long shot!!! and looks utterly unlikely - and the Clarence's father's are different - but, at least so far as the second Clarence (assuming he is a different Clarence) is concerned, I think there was an element of deception/fraud in relation to his marriage/s -sorry it's so complicated :(

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o112/djangocrystal/Scannedat16-11-0805-40bmp.jpg

No idea if this makes sense - even to me!! LOL

Margaret in Burton

06-02-10, 21:33

Can only find Alice K Platt born 1871 in Kensington. A single woman and her sister Emmie living with her.

Margaret in Burton

06-02-10, 21:34

Joan

Can't remember but have we found any of them in 1911?

Merry

06-02-10, 21:35

Alice K Platt is the sister of Clarence Edmund Platt. (1891 census)

Muggins in Sussex

06-02-10, 21:41

I have a sub, I'll take a look

Thank you Marg :)

Margaret in Burton

06-02-10, 21:41

Can only find Alice K Platt born 1871 in Kensington. A single woman and her sister Emmie living with her.

Alice and Emmie are born in Clapton, London.

I have found Clarence Edmond Platt in 1911, he is also born in Clapton, London.
There is also a Horace Frederick Platt there.
They seem to be at a sort of lodging house in Guildford

H F Platt on the marriage cert

Muggins in Sussex

06-02-10, 21:44

Alice and Emmie are born in Clapton, London.

I have found Clarence Edmond Platt in 1911, he is also born in Clapton, London.
There is also a Horace Frederick Platt there.
They seem to be at a sort of lodging house in Guildford

Oooh thank you Margaret...Guildford is interesting :) - I don;t suppose there are any lodgers there with German- sounding surnames? :confused:

Margaret in Burton

06-02-10, 21:47

Clarence Thomas Platt's father is listed as Joseph Platt a Toll Collector.

In 1911 there is a person of the same name and occupation (the only one) in Barton upon Irwell, Lancashire. He was employed by Manchester Corporation and was born in Manchester. No sign of Clarence Thomas there as well.

Margaret in Burton

06-02-10, 21:48

Oooh thank you Margaret...Guildford is interesting :) - I don;t suppose there are any lodgers there with German- sounding surnames? :confused:

I'll have a look

Margaret in Burton

06-02-10, 21:52

ZAMBRA, Marcus Warren

ZAMBRA, Edith Mary

ZAMBRA, George Julius

REEDER, Jessie Edith

ZAMBRA, William Warren

ZAMBRA, Reginald Colpas

ACKERMANN, Kathleen Maud

SMITH, Cyril Wortner

PLATT, Horace Frederick

PLATT, Clarence Edmond

TRIGGS, Harold Thomas

STAMFORD, Alice Amy

MILLER, Emma Rose

DRAYS, Ruth Lilian Winfred

None born in Germany though.

Muggins in Sussex

06-02-10, 21:52

Thank you Margaret :)

Margaret in Burton

06-02-10, 21:56

Caroline Ruth Dowsett is employed by Gerard Mottram Hutton a clergyman in Brighton

Muggins in Sussex

06-02-10, 22:05

Thanks Marg :) Highly fitting that she worked for a man of the cloth! LOL!!

She went on to marry HW Wicks - probably bigamously -( HW may well have been Clarence T Platt)......I don't now think he was also Clarence Edmund Platt..- I have found Clarence Edmund's birth...may sound a bit far-fetched, but I was thinking about identity theft.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o112/djangocrystal/Scannedat30-8-0815-08-2.jpg

and I have discovered on a rummage a German bible with a name inscribed...Hans T Praht :confused:

Think I need a lie-down :d - thanks again for your help, Marg :)

Margaret in Burton

06-02-10, 22:07

Clarence Thomas Platt doesn't appear to exist but his supposed father Joseph a toll collector does.

Joseph has a son Thomas but not a Clarence. Thomas was born about 1883 in Manchester. No Clarence Platt seems to have a birth reg in Manchester either.

Margaret in Burton

06-02-10, 22:10

The Dowsett family are at that same address in 1911. Do you have that census image Joan?

Muggins in Sussex

06-02-10, 22:11

Alice K Platt is the sister of Clarence Edmund Platt. (1891 census)

Thanks Merry :)

Sorry if I have got into a dreadful muddle again :o - it all makes me quite dizzy! :d

Margaret in Burton

06-02-10, 22:13

Very odd.

17 Bloomsbury Place, Brighton doesn't seem to have existed in 1911. There are a few numbers missing.

Muggins in Sussex

06-02-10, 22:16

Muggins in Sussex

06-02-10, 22:17

Very odd.

17 Bloomsbury Place, Brighton doesn't seem to have existed in 1911. There are a few numbers missing.

How wierd !!

Margaret in Burton

06-02-10, 22:19

Ooh Marg-- that is really, really helpful :)... where did you find Joseph?

Joan #13

I'll send you the image

Carolyn P

06-02-10, 22:20

peppie

06-02-10, 22:24

Im so glad you posted this because this afternoon I put Thomas Platt into ancestry thinking we haven't looked at him in a while........ :d

What if he added Clarence to the front having some allusions of grandeur? :eek:

marquette

06-02-10, 22:27

In 1861, Bloomsbury St, across St George's Road from Bloomsbury Place, is missing from the ancestry census.

My ancestors the Bishops lived at 5 Bloomsbury STREET, from 1841-1873.

oh, and I have an interest (great-great aunt's first husband) in Joseph Gear Platt born about 1836 in Limehouse Middlesex. Does not look like the same Platts though.

Di

Muggins in Sussex

06-02-10, 22:38

I would definitely suggest (if you haven't done so already) that you try and get to view the original marriage entries from the actual parish registers. Since the London marriages have been available on Ancestry I have been able to compare my GRO versions with the originals and apart from seeing the actual signatures of the bride, groom and witnesses (which could be significant in your cases) have also found other slight differences such as an additional 3rd witness who did not appear on the GRO version.

Thank you Caroline - I have a letter from Hove Register Office saying that the signatures of Caroline Ruth Dowsett on both certificates appear to be identical - and that they assume the second marriage is bigamous...but you are right - I really should try to visit and view the original documents

Im so glad you posted this because this afternoon I put Thomas Platt into ancestry thinking we haven't looked at him in a while........ :d

What if he added Clarence to the front having some allusions of grandeur? :eek:

Sounds quite plausible, Peppie- thanks

In 1861, Bloomsbury St, across St George's Road from Bloomsbury Place, is missing from the ancestry census.

My ancestors the Bishops lived at 5 Bloomsbury STREET, from 1841-1873.

oh, and I have an interest (great-great aunt's first husband) in Joseph Gear Platt born about 1836 in Limehouse Middlesex. Does not look like the same Platts though.

Di

Thanks Di...curious it's another Joseph Platt......:confused:

Muggins in Sussex

06-02-10, 22:39

Joan #13

I'll send you the image

Thank you Marg :)

Muggins in Sussex

06-02-10, 22:46

Thank you Marg :)

Got it Marg --thank you :) - How exciting..

James would have been almost the right age....could he be Clarence T ???

Margaret in Burton

06-02-10, 23:03

Got it Marg --thank you :) - How exciting..

James would have been exactly the right age....could he be Clarence T ???

On the 1891 census for the same family there is a Thomas.

I really don't know Joan.

Margaret in Burton

06-02-10, 23:08

Can't remember if you have Ancestry Joan.

1891

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=6598&iid=LANRG12_3194_3196-0306&fn=Joseph&ln=Platt&st=d&ssrc=&pid=20940738

1901

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7814&iid=LANRG13_3705_3707-0929&fn=Joseph&ln=Platt&st=d&ssrc=&pid=23249968

Kit

06-02-10, 23:15

If Joseph Platt toll collector exists I would say his son does too.

It would be nothing to have left the Clarence off the birth cert and for him to have been known by his second name. My mum is one of 5 children but the only one known by her birth cert name.

Merry

07-02-10, 08:27

But I thought the original Clarence who married Caroline was from Canada???

*throws self to floor, weeping copiously*

*wishes I'd taken notes* lol

Margaret in Burton

07-02-10, 08:34

But I thought the original Clarence who married Caroline was from Canada???

*throws self to floor, weeping copiously*

*wishes I'd taken notes* lol

Me too, can't remember who Joan has on what census or anything.

Joan

We need a timeline and summary.

Muggins in Sussex

07-02-10, 09:19

Thanks again for you help Marg- I had seen the Joseph Platt in 1891 before, but discounted him as he was a button maker, and there was no Clarence in the - but now I see that Joseph was a toll collector in 1911, he seems much more interesting :)

*passes Merry tissues* :) - the idea that Clarence was Canadian came about because he could not be found in England, and because he is a soldier, there was a suggestion that he could be part of the Canadian Expeditionary Force -Platt seems quite a common name in Canada, and in 1930, Wicks said that he wanted to go to Canada to prove the validity of his marriage.

However I have not been able to find him in Canada, either, or in records of the CEF.

Here is a very brief timeline - I don't wan't to confuse things! :d

1893 Henry William Wicks, born London (sisters Beatrice Maud, Florence A and Kate)

1895 John Arthur Dowsett, born Patcham (sisters Caroline Ruth, Mary M and Doris Marjorie)

1915 HW marries Mary Suzette Symes b Islington 1878

1916 John Arthur Dowsett marries Dorothy Scruttton (my grandmother)

1917 HW and Mary have a daughter, Mary, who lives only a few months

1918 (May 28th) Mary Suzette Wicks dies

1918 (August 8th ) Caroline Ruth Dowsett marries Clarence T Platt

1918 (Dec 26th) Caroline Ruth Dowsett marries HW Wicks.

BTW earlier today I found (on the Family Search pilot site) a baptism for a male - MAUD Clarence Platt in 1905 - wrong parents, but it made me smile :)

peppie

07-02-10, 10:05

in 1930, Wicks said that he wanted to go to Canada to prove the validity of his marriage.

And we also know he was writing with his grumbles to every President in the world plus the pope.... :d So I'm going to put aside Platt being Canadian for the mo :d:D

Margaret in Burton

07-02-10, 11:20

Muggins in Sussex

07-02-10, 12:16

And we also know he was writing with his grumbles to every President in the world plus the pope.... :d So I'm going to put aside Platt being Canadian for the mo :d:D

LOL Peppie!!! :d

He is also a Market Collector of rents and tolls in 1901

Yes, thanks, Marg - I'm not sure how I missed that before - but I did! :confused:

But if "Clarence Thomas" was one of this Joseph's sons I'm not sure which one he was. :confused:

If "Clarence" was, as he said on the marriage cert, a soldier, I guess there may be some army records....off for a hunt.........

Margaret in Burton

07-02-10, 12:19

LOL Peppie!!! :d

Yes, thanks, Marg - I'm not sure how I missed that before - but I did! :confused:

But if "Clarence Thomas" was one of this Joseph's sons I'm not sure which one he was. :confused:

If "Clarence" was, as he said on the marriage cert, a soldier, I guess there may be some army records....off for a hunt.........

I did have a quick look last night but I was getting tired and may have missed something.

JessBow

07-02-10, 21:09

Hans T Praht

Anglasised would be Henry Platt ???

Praht >>Platt

Dont know why ~I have added that really, was just a thought as I read thru. Im sure that has occured to you

Muggins in Sussex

08-02-10, 06:21

Thanks Jess! :)

Am beginning to think the bible is a red hering! :confused:

Mary from Italy

08-02-10, 06:33

Hans is a diminutive of Johann (John).

JayG

08-02-10, 13:07

I noticed CTP & CRD married by licence, have you tried to obtain a copy of this as that should have his army number which my lead to a service record.

Margaret in Burton

08-02-10, 13:57

I noticed CTP & CRD married by licence, have you tried to obtain a copy of this as that should have his army number which my lead to a service record.

I was suprised that his army number wasn't on the cert. I have a birth cert where the fathers number and regiment is listed.

JayG

08-02-10, 14:03

Same here Marg, have both marriages & births with the numbers & units on.

Muggins in Sussex

08-02-10, 18:58

I noticed CTP & CRD married by licence, have you tried to obtain a copy of this as that should have his army number which my lead to a service record.

Jay, I didn't realise that the licence might have the army number - thank you :) - Where would I look for copy of the licence?

I was suprised that his army number wasn't on the cert. I have a birth cert where the fathers number and regiment is listed.

Same here Marg, have both marriages & births with the numbers & units on.

Marg & Jay - I always thought that the description "soldier" seemed a bit vague :confused:

maggie_4_7

08-02-10, 19:07

I was suprised that his army number wasn't on the cert. I have a birth cert where the fathers number and regiment is listed.

Me too.

My grandfather's regiment and number is written on some birth certificates for his children.

JayG

08-02-10, 19:26

Joan the licence's i've found where held at either the Record Office or where the Diocesan records are deposited, which isn't necessarily the Record Office.

Kit

08-02-10, 23:28

There is a C Platt on the National Roll of the Great War 1914-1918 on FMP. There is a number at the end X21868. He was a sapper, R.E. There is an address of 15 Ballantine St Wandsworth SW18.

Don't know if it he is yours but thought the number might be useful in checking it out.

Kit

08-02-10, 23:32

There is another C Platt number Z2865 but you can discount him. He was serving overseas and wouldn't have been here to marry Caroline.

The first one could not serve overseas due to ill health.

JayG

08-02-10, 23:50

There is another C Platt number Z2865 but you can discount him. He was serving overseas and wouldn't have been here to marry Caroline.

LOL Toni from what i've gathered of Joan's quest nothing would suprise me more if that turned out to be him! :d:d

Muggins in Sussex

09-02-10, 06:38

Thanks Kit & Jay - I look at those C Platts -
wish I didn't have to go to work :(

I've just e-mailed West Sussex Records Office to ask whether they would have a copy of the marriage licence.

Joan

Kit

09-02-10, 07:28

[QUOTE=Kit;57491]LOL Toni from what i've gathered of Joan's quest nothing would suprise me more if that turned out to be him! :d:d

:mad: I hate it when you are right. ;):d

Muggins in Sussex

10-02-10, 06:16

Margaret in Burton

10-02-10, 06:21

Ooh that's good news Joan. Have you told them to go ahead?

maggie_4_7

10-02-10, 06:26

LOL Kit :d

In my usual muddle, I realised I had e-mailed West Sussex Records Office intead of East Sussex :o But I have had a reply!-

"We have 650 marriage licences for 1918 for the Archdeaconry of Lewes which includes the parish of Preston"

Doen't sound an awful lot, but they can search for me for a small fee.

I know that you've been over this before but I get confused with HWW ;) but if that marriage was bigamous after the Platt one wouldn't there have been something in the courts or newspapers, have you ever tried that avenue? I'm sure you have. Of course they probably weren't found out.

Its finding Clarence that's the key isn't it? And you have never found him have you?

Did he exist, did he die or leave the country, or was it a psuedonym of someone else?

I'm trying to think about how you unravel it and I suppose proving that Clarence existed is the first hurdle!

Muggins in Sussex

16-06-12, 15:08

Hmmmm - I just wonder whether this could be Clarence Thomas Platt's birth

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&tid=45875&tpid=-1105462807&ssrc=pt_t45875_p-1105462807&MSAV=0&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsfn=Clarence+Thomas+&gsln=Platt&msbdy=1886&sbo=1&uidh=nn3&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=2200280&recoff=7+8+10+42&db=ontario_births&indiv=1

Thomas Clarence Ernest Platt, born 1885 in Northumberland, Ontario - father
J A Platt, father a Trader then a word I can't read

Clarence Thomas's marriage cert to Caroline Dowsett in 1918 shows him as aged 32 and his father as Joseph Platt

If Clarence ever existed, then it seems he came from Ontario - at least, according to Caroline! :d

Merry

16-06-12, 15:15

Quite an age difference then. How old was Caroline?

I can't see the doc as I don't have worldwide membership.

Muggins in Sussex

16-06-12, 15:27

Sorry Merry - I always seem to get something wrong when I post :o

The year of birth is 1885, not 1895 as I put in my last post!

Caroline was 27

Janet

16-06-12, 15:32

Merry, have PMd you an image. Wish I could stay for the denouement, but I have to go out shortly!

Merry

16-06-12, 15:48

lol Thanks Janet and yes, 1885 Muggins!!

I think the bit after "Trader" is his address/residence. Does it say Bewdley?

Muggins in Sussex

16-06-12, 15:50

Merry, have PMd you an image. Wish I could stay for the denouement, but I have to go out shortly!

Thanks Janet :)

My instinct has always been that Clarence did exist.

Just spent a time looking for his marriage cert, then realised it apears on post 6 of this thread!

Muggins in Sussex

16-06-12, 15:53

lol Thanks Janet and yes, 1885 Muggins!!

I think the bit after "Trader" is is address/residece. Does it say Bewdley?

It does look like Bewdley, Merry - thanks - at first I thought it was "boarder", but that makes no sense

The only meaning of Bewdley that I know is a small town in Worcestershire - wonder if it has any other meanings :confused:

Muggins in Sussex

16-06-12, 15:55

Yes, its a township in Northumberland, Ontario - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bewdley,_Ontario - thanks Merry:)

kiterunner

16-06-12, 16:11

Sorry to put a spanner in the works, but there is an Earnest T Platt on the 1901 Canadian census, in Cobourg Town, Northumberland, Ontario, dob 3 May 1885, father John A Platt, egg dealer. And looking back at that birth registration, the dob does look like 3rd May rather than 30th.

Merry

16-06-12, 16:28

the dob does look like 3rd May rather than 30th.

Do we want it to be 30th or don't we know Clarence's birthday?

Merry

16-06-12, 16:41

Do we know who Eunice Hope is?

kiterunner

16-06-12, 16:49

Do we want it to be 30th or don't we know Clarence's birthday?

If we wanted that birth registration to be Joan's Clarence Thomas, I suppose we would want the date of birth to be 30th so it didn't match Ernest T in the census entry, who is the son of John rather than of Joseph (Clarence's father on the marriage cert is Joseph). But I'm pretty sure the birth reg is the same person who is on the census, sorry.

Merry

16-06-12, 17:20

Ah, I only asked because I was looking at a Clarence Platt on the 1901 Canadian census whose birthday was 30th May, but also with the wrong father!

I see the witnesses on the marriage cert were probably already married to each other when Clarence Platt was married but Eunice signed with her maiden name.

kiterunner

16-06-12, 18:13

I've now found Ernest Platt on the 1891 Canada census and his mother's name on there is Annie which matches the birth registration too.

Merry

16-06-12, 18:35

I've just read this thread back and now realise there's a good chance Canada is a red herring.

I did wonder if the marriage cert of Eunice and Wm Lee would tell us anything?

Muggins in Sussex

16-06-12, 18:47

Thank you Kite & Merry - it looks as though my instinct was wrong then!

Merry, I have the marriage cert for William & Eunice - have tried to copy it but Photobucket seems to have changed and I don't understand it any more!

Brighton Register Office - 9th March 1916

William Martin Lee, aged 23, Bachelor, Provision Salesman, 39 Queen's Gardens Brighton
William's father -William Lee - Sergeant 14th Hussars (coachman domestic)

Eunice Hannah Elizabeth Hope, aged 24, Spinster, Dressmaker, 18 Upper North St, Brighton
Eunice's father - George Edgar hope, Carpenter

Witnesses - Annie Lee & Edith Penfold

I always wondered whether William & Eunice were just two people who happened to be walking by and were asked to witness the marriage :confused:

Merry

16-06-12, 19:01

I always wondered whether William & Eunice were just two people who happened to be walking by

Maybe.

Anstey Nomad

16-06-12, 19:43

Can I just say that in an effort to identify my great aunt's husband who died in WW1 and has a relatively common name, I sent for their marriage certificate because I was assured that it would give his army number. It just said 'Sapper R E' so I have not been able to track him down yet.

It seems therefore that a number on a certificate cannot be guaranteed.

AN