west riding

[bidston]

hi all, its me again, had no luck finding my grandfather but had such fun trying, i thought I'd try another one

have my great, great grandparents at pudsey in 1851, thomas and elizabeth jones living at 223 greaves fold, on the census is elizabet haldane, mother in law

found her in 1841 in pudsey as elizabeth alden or aldon age 55 living with elizabeth age 20 plus 2 other children, isabella and martha

would love to find birth or marriage details of elizabeth senior or junior, any tips

[Margaret in Burton]

For reference this is the 1851 census

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=YRKHO107_2313_2313-1018&fn=Elizabeth&ln=Haldane&st=d&ssrc=&pid=12313323

Isabella and Martha are also on this one, sisters in law.

[Margaret in Burton]

There seems to be some confusion over the spelling of Elizabeth's surname.

If Thomas and Elizabeth are your great great grandparents, do you have a birth cert for one of their children, i.e. your great grandparent?

Elizabeth's maiden name will be on that.

I've been looking on the IGI for possible baptisms for Elizabeth, Isabella and Martha but nothing stood out.

[Merry]

Yes, without that birth cert you can't assume Elizabeth Jones was previously a Haldane, despite using that surname in 1841, as she is older than Isabella and Martha so could have been born of an earlier marriage of Elizabeth senr. Really you can't know that until you have the date of her mother's marriage.

[bidston]

i have the marriage for squire jones and maria cochrane jan 14 1878 , and i have squire jones as a 7 year old in 1861 in pudsey with elizabeth jones, martha age 11 and william age 9

this is the same family in 1851 at pudsey although father thomas jones is missing in 1861, perhaps died

the 1851 family has the mother in law and 2 sisters in law with them

10 years previous i have elizabeth alden plus elizabeth, wife of thomas plus the 2 girls who appear as in-laws 10 years later in 1851 so i am pretty sure its the same lot

again all in pudsey

[bidston]

hi marg, they would not let me access the ancestry .co.uk info

the gap between elizabeth and isabella is only 5 years so i did not think it would be 2 marriages,
in 1851 liz senior is down as pauper with liz junior a power loom weaver

in 1861 liz junior is down as washerwoman, no sign now of mum and sisters

[bidston]

have just looked at the birth cert for squire jones

13 march 1854
thomas jones - blacksmith
elizabeth aldane

another spelling

[Margaret in Burton]

hi marg, they would not let me access the ancestry .co.uk info

the gap between elizabeth and isabella is only 5 years so i did not think it would be 2 marriages,
in 1851 liz senior is down as pauper with liz junior a power loom weaver

in 1861 liz junior is down as washerwoman, no sign now of mum and sisters

Never ever assume. Bad habit to get into. Women remarried only months after their husband died. No-one to support them or their children otherwise.

[Margaret in Burton]

Have you searched FreeBMD for a marriage of Thomas Jones and Elizabeth? No use going over ground that has been done?

[Margaret in Burton]

Looking at FreeBMD marriages Sep 1837 to Dec 1851 in Bradford, (district where Elizabeth lived)

There were only 3 possible Elizabeth's who may have married a Thomas Jones.

Elizabeth Davies (1841)
Elizabeth Fawkins (1845)
Elizabeth Arundale (1845)

[Margaret in Burton]

Can't find them in 1861?

Any census refs?

[Margaret in Burton]

For reference 1841

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8978&iid=WRYHO107_1298_1299-0115&fn=Elizabeth&ln=Alden&st=d&ssrc=&pid=12417960

[Margaret in Burton]

Found them in 1861

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8767&iid=WRYRG9_3354_3357-0172&fn=Elizabeth&ln=Jones&st=d&ssrc=&pid=10394108

[bidston]

hi marg, i tried putting in both eliz and thomas details into freebmd and both times it came back june 1845, is it safe to assume to each other, arundale is a hell of long way off the spelling though

[Margaret in Burton]

No, it's not safe to assume anything. The only way you will know is to buy that cert. There are 4 couples with that same ref. Anyone of them could have married each other. Thomas Jones could have married one of the other women listed. It is a common name after all.

[bidston]

blimey, not easy is it

[Margaret in Burton]

Have you found any of the sisters in 1861? Isabella and Martha?

[Merry]

the gap between elizabeth and isabella is only 5 years so i did not think it would be 2 marriages,


Well, obviously I can't say which ages are accurate, but in 1851 Elizabeth is 35 and Isabella is 25.

[Merry]

in 1861 liz junior is down as washerwoman, no sign now of mum and sisters

Have you not got the 1871 census for Squire and his sister Martha? Isn't that Isabella living nextdoor (surname Haldon) with her (illegitimate) son Tom S Haldon?

[Merry]

I can't see a birth reg for Isabella's son, but this looks like his marriage:

Marriages Sep 1888 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chapman Savina Kate Leeds 9b 829
DIXON Mary Hannah Leeds 9b 829
Haldon Tom Squire Leeds 9b 829
Richards Charles Frederick Leeds 9b 829


He is with his mum in 1881 with his middle name listed in full.

[Merry]

Isabella's death:

Deaths Mar 1885
Haldon Isabella 59 Leeds 9b 310

[Margaret in Burton]

Oooh I dozed off on the sofa. :p:p

You've found a lot Merry. :)

Bidston

I think you seem to be jumping around a bit on this line of your research. Try to go into more depth which what you do know. Go backwards from yourself leaving no stone unturned. Look at the neighbours on census always, as Merry has noticed, Isabella is next door. Always note the witnesses on marriage certs, they may be close family.

Never assume anything - assume = ass-u-me.

Sorry if I'm teaching an old dog new tricks so to speak but I've forgotten how long you said you have been researching your tree.

[bidston]

oh my goodness, i think you have found them, details please

i was going to suggest should i look for the sisters but you beat me to it, again, thank you

where are they living

[bidston]

marg i accept all your suggestions, have only been doing this a month, am so grateful for your expertise

never even thought about next door neighbours

i am an old dog but you are not stepping on any toes here, am fumbling away in the dark, so happy to have come across you guys, experience is everything

to go backwards as you suggest starts with me paul david girling, father albert henry girling, grandfather robert girling, the mystery man,his wife, grandmother mary jones, her father squire jones, all for definite so far, his parents thomas jones and elizabeth jones ( haldane, alden, halden, aldon) her mother according to 1851 census elizabeth haldane - age 67, pauper

hope this helps, don't hesitate to ask me questions as i probably have more info but need you to identify whats important, many many thanks

[bidston]

bye the way, you seem to have access to many things i cant find, what would you suggest i subscribe to in order to further my knowledge

[Margaret in Burton]

For some reason I was under the impression that you had been researching for longer. I thought you mentioned 30 years in your previous thread.

Must have misunderstood.

Do you have Ancestry so that you can read the census details?

[Margaret in Burton]

Elizabeth Jones death is a bit tricky.

In 1861 she was living in Hunslet registration district.

In 1871 Martha and Squire are living in Bramley district.

Death in 1861 (Mar qtr 9b 227 - Hunslet) no age at death listed in the index as this wasn't done until 1866.

Death in 1868 ( Dec qtr 9b 259 - Bramley) age 55 (age is a bit out)



edit:

Just checked the National Burial Index. The death in 1861 is for a 60 year old buried 17 March 1861 in Hunslet Cemetery, Leeds. (so not yours)

Probably the 1868 one is her.

Always order certs from the GRO or the local offices and never pay more than £7. Other sites are a rip off.

[bidston]

hi marg, no, what i meant was the mysterious robert girling came to my attention about 30 years ago when my old man was alive but i just tried to get stuff out of the family

then about 1990 i tried again and went to the reference libraries in birkenhead, wallasey and liverpool, mostly looking at directories

i also remember the mormon records coming available but only in certain places, i think my cousin and myself booked consecutive hours at the library in northwich, if i remember right, it was such hard work then, i gave up after a while

were i live now we have had 'who do you think you are' on t.v. australian version, so i thought i would try the internet and was surprised to find all these great forums full of really helpful people. so that was a month ago and i have made great progress on some lines of the family because of people like you, that's were i am up to now, thanks

[bidston]

hi marg, hunslett, stanningley, bramley are more or less the same place, they appear constantly in all mentions, pudsey as well, if you look on the map they are almost in walking distance from each other

[kiterunner]

Hmmm... do you think Haldane / Alden / Aldon are variations of the surname Holden?

[Margaret in Burton]

hi marg, hunslett, stanningley, bramley are more or less the same place, they appear constantly in all mentions, pudsey as well, if you look on the map they are almost in walking distance from each other

Yes, I know that. They are all areas of Leeds. The census record tells you what registration district they were living in. That district is where they probably died unless at a relatives house or something and where the death would have been registered.

Where in the world are you by the way?

Do you have access to Ancestry?

[Margaret in Burton]

Hmmm... do you think Haldane / Alden / Aldon are variations of the surname Holden?

Oh no Kate, don't say that. LOL

[bidston]

have never come across holden so far, but its pretty close for sure

[bidston]

i am in thailand and yes i can subscribe to ancestry.co.uk which i will do asap

[Margaret in Burton]

There is a very famous Holden on this site Bidston. (well famous on genealogy forums anyway) LOL

If you subcribe to Ancestry you will be able to access the census links I have posted.


This is the 1871 that Merry found.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7619&iid=WRYRG10_4524_4529-0236&fn=Squire&ln=Jones&st=r&ssrc=&pid=26207150

[bidston]

just looked at ancestry, whats best essential or premium

[Margaret in Burton]

Essentials will get you the BMD indexes and census. I only have Essentials at the moment.
If you think you may need other things like LMA records (London Metropolitan Archives) you need premium.
You can always upgrade at a later date.

[bidston]

thanks marg, will sign up monthly to essentials

[Margaret in Burton]

Sometimes you get an option of a 14 day free trial, you have to remember to cancel in time though or your card gets charged.

[kiterunner]

I can't find a baptism for Elizabeth, Martha or Isabella anywhere online. Think you would need to get a look at the parish registers for Pudsey and Bramley and places nearby to look for them.

[Merry]

Hmmm... do you think Haldane / Alden / Aldon are variations of the surname Holden?

I've been holding (holden?!) off from saying that for a while! lol

[Merry]

Martha whatsit, b about 1827, married Benjamin Rooks here:

Marriages Mar 1862
Halden Martha Leeds 9b 501 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Lakeland Victoria Leeds 9b 501 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Rooks Benjamin Leeds 9b 501
Suttiell Thomas Leeds 9b 501

So, if you can't track down Elizabeth and Thomas Jones' marriage cert easily and we know Isabella didn't get married, then the above cert is one way to sort out the first name/occ of the girls' father.

I couldn't easily see Martha as a single person in 1861, but in 1871 the Rooks family details are:

27 Cherry Row, Leeds, Yorks

Benjamin Rooks head m 43 licenced victualler b Yorks, Cleckheaton
Martha Rooks wife m 43 b Yorks, Stanningley
Jno Wm Rawling nephew unm 21 brewer b Yorks, Leeds
William Jones nephew unm 19 machine fitter b Yorks, Stanningley (he was with his mum, Elizabeth, in 1861)
Mary Ann Firth serv unm 16 General domestic serv b Yorks Leeds.

I think it most likely John Wm Rawling is a nephew of Benjamin Rooks, rather than martha (the relationship to the head of house is often pretty fliud!) as they are together in 1861 as well, which was before Benjamin and Martha were married.

[Merry]

There's a Martha Halden aged 30, who is a domestic cook in 1861, living in Bradford (household of Benjamin Ingle, woollen mill owner) and b in Bramley, so that might be her. Servants often have the wrong age on the census.

[bidston]

o.k. so if i get the marriage certificate for martha halden and benjamin rooks march 1862 leeds 9b 501, that will get me her, and elizabeths, fathers name and occupation, yes

do you promise if i stay on this forum long enough i will get the holden angle

[bidston]

blimey merry, looking next door, better than columbo, did they have the washing out

[Merry]

o.k. so if i get the marriage certificate for martha halden and benjamin rooks march 1862 leeds 9b 501, that will get me her, and elizabeths, fathers name and occupation, yes



Can't guarantee a thing lol! You will find out what Martha felt like saying about her father. If you can then find a marriage for the dad to Elizabeth and it's before the birth of all the girls an you can find a death for him and that is after all the girls were conceived then you will be getting somewhere. Hopefully at some point you might also track doesn their baptisms, though this may be tricky as they all seem a bit vague about their birth parishes, presumablybecause they are close together.

I've not forgotten being caught out by a woman who gav her father's details at her marriage and I saw her birth reg (1919) showing her born with dad's surname and correct mmn showing. Found parents marriage some 20 years before the daughter's birth and found the newlyweds in 1901. traced back both sides 150 years. All fairly easy. It was only after all this research that I realised the 'father' had died in 1903, making the conception of a child in 1918 slightly unlikely, to say the least! The birth cert was the purchased and the discovery made that there was no name on the father's box, but, of course, the entry still looked exactly the same in the index. This is an example of why it's so important to know the dates of all surrounding events before you start making assumptions about anything!


do you promise if i stay on this forum long enough i will get the holden angle

Yes, don't worry!

[Merry]

blimey merry, looking next door, better than columbo, did they have the washing out

Yes, no men's stuff though, which is how I realised Isabella wasn't in a relationship!

[Merry]

Isabella's son, Tom Squire Haldon doesn't seem to have remained married for long (at least from the census mterial)

He married Savina Kate Chapman:

Marriages Sep 1888
Chapman Savina Kate Leeds 9b 829 <<<<<<<<<<<
DIXON Mary Hannah Leeds 9b 829
Haldon Tom Squire Leeds 9b 829 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Richards Charles Frederick Leeds 9b 829

In 1891 she is a housekeeper in Headingley with a family headed by Wm Geo Raper and Tom is nowhere to be seen at the moment. In 1901 she is the 'wife' of the man she was previously housekeeper to and there's a nine-year-old child in the house who may be theirs! Meanwhile Tom is living in Halifax, says he is married and has his own 'housekeeper'!

I'm assuming (as Marg said, never do that!) Tom and Savina never divorced as this was rare amongst ordinary people at the time, but it's something worth investigating as did sometimes happen). If they didn't divorce then this looks like a bigamous marriage:

Marriages Jun 1895
Anderson Sarah Theodosia Leeds 9b 805
Butler Walter Leeds 9b 805
Haldon Lavinia Kate Leeds 9b 805 <<<<<<<<<<<<<
Raper William George Leeds 9b 8 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Wm Geo Raper died in 1907 and Savina went on to marry again, by the look of it. I can't find Tom's death, so it's always possible this one is bigamous as well!

Marriages Mar 1920
Dickinson William Raper N. Bierley 9b 95 <<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hughes Ivy Waterhouse W. Bierley 9b 95
Raper Savina K Dickinson N. Bierley 9b 95 <<<<<<<<<<<<
Waterhouse Alfred Hughes N. Bierley 9b 95

[Margaret in Burton]

Bl***y hell Merry, you've even lost me.

*goes back to read it again*

How common was the name Squire?

I was looking on the IGI yesterday at the surname Arundale. (Remember that an Elizabeth Arundale may have married a Thomas Jones?)

I'm sure I saw a Squire or Esquire with that surname.

[Margaret in Burton]

Yes I did

From the IGI

James ARANDALL 25 AUG 1808 Lane Particular Baptist, Bramley By Leeds, Yorkshire

Esquire ARUNDALL - 24 MAY 1819 Lane Particular Baptist, Bramley By Leeds, Yorkshire,

Elizabeth ARUNDALL - 25 DEC 1816 Lane Particular Baptist, Bramley By Leeds, Yorkshire,

Parents Joseph and Elizabeth

batch number C093301

Possible marriage,
Joseph Arundale married Elizabeth Broughton
17 FEB 1806 Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire

batch M151051

No sign of an Isabella or Martha though. Maybe a red herring.

[Merry]

I think Savina may already be a Dickinson in 1911 as there's a Kate Dickinson right age, b Suffolk in North Bierley, but I'm not sure if it's her as I can't get her exact plac of birth.

[Merry]

Oooh, hello Marg! I think Squire (not sure about Esquire?) was a name that was 'about' in the north of England - don't have any in my tree, but I don't have many north of Watford lol

[Margaret in Burton]

lol

I don't have any in my tree either.

[Margaret in Burton]

You want me to look up that Kate in 1911 yes?

[Merry]

Oooh yes please! Her birthplace should start with Thorn??? in Suffolk and she was b abt 1868.

[Margaret in Burton]

I would think it's her as there are Raper children in the household.

I'll do a couple of screenshots save typing it all out.

[Margaret in Burton]

Oooh yes please! Her birthplace should start with Thorn??? in Suffolk and she was b abt 1868.



Thornton (as in the chocolate) lol

[Merry]

Lovely! Thank you :)

[Margaret in Burton]

1911 address Cavendish Square Beckbottom Farsley

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu326/margharrison/0ne.jpg

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu326/margharrison/two.jpg

[Merry]

Oooh, Fred HALDEN Roper! So, did Tom leave Savina pregnant when she became the housekeeper to Mr Roper?

Beckbottom Farsley

Lol that made me larf!

[bidston]

i don't know about beckbottom, i'm at rock bottom, who are all these people , am i on the right thread, what kind of a name is beckbottom farsley, is it a man or a woman

need to sit down for an hour with a big bit of paper for this

[Merry]

I have just been looking at an old will from which my mum received a small legacy. It is dated 2000 and gives the descendents of Henrietta Pike as Royston Joseph Baum Pike, John Baum Pike and Geoffrey Royston Pike so you have obviously found the right family. I did not realise they were in Australia. For fans of Heir hunters the research was done by title research.

Now it's me who is very confused! Who are they??

need to sit down for an hour with a big bit of paper for this

Oh no you don't.....a small bit is fine!

Elizabeth X married someone with a funny name no. one could spell. She probably had at least three children of this marriage, Elizabeth, Martha and Isabella.

Elizabeth m Thomas Jones and had various children.

Martha married Benjamin Rooks and didn't have any surviving children, by the look of it.

Isabella didn't marry but gave birth to one son - Tom Squire Halden. He married once to Savina Kate Chapman, but she married three times; first to Tom, then, probably bigamously to Wm Geo Raper and finally to Wm Dickinson.

All sounds a pretty average family to me!

[bidston]

hang on, were did these pike people come from,

[bidston]

now wait a minute, we have to keep this factual, cant have someone with a funny name and martha whatsit I'm writing all this down and people looking over my shoulder think i am descended from a whatsit, and the australians should keep out of it, hard to follow as it is

[kiterunner]

I think Anne's post belongs in a different thread... will see if I can find it and move it there...

It seems she has already posted the same on her own thread, so it can be safely deleted from this one.

[bidston]

thanks kiterunner, i can stop looking up australia now, i think i will subscribe to the premium package, as it has london and i still have this scallywag robert girling to track down

[Margaret in Burton]

This is the enumerator's writing of the address:

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu326/margharrison/address.jpg

and William Dickinson's signature:

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu326/margharrison/signature.jpg

[bidston]

thanks marg. looked it up the stanningley bypass, where loads of mentions are, runs into the farsly bypass, so its all in a little group of townships

[Lindsay]

Bidston,

This website is brilliant if you have connections in the Calverley area (including Pudsey) - loads of parish records transcriptions and more online:

http://www.calverley.info/

[Margaret in Burton]

Bidston

As I think Merry said earlier, you need to access parish registers to try to find the marriages of Elizabeth X to Unknown Halden / Haldane / Aldon etc. Also the marriage of Elizabeth etc to Thomas Jones.

I know you are in Thailand, but the LDS have Family History Centres all over the world where you can order films of parish registers for a small cost and view them at the centre. You would need to contact your local one to make sure. I have looked on the LDS site (www.familysearch.org).
There are 5 centres in Thailand, are any within reach of you?
It does say that "These are not mailing addresses. Due to limited staff, Family History Centers are unable to respond to mail inquiries."


Chiang Mai Thailand
136/10 Ratchamaka Road
Tambolphasing Amphurmuang
Chiang Mai, Thailand

Khon Kaen Thailand
168/156 Prachasamosorn Road
Amphurmuang
Khon Kaen, Thailand

Pakkret Thailand
50/980 Muu 5 Chaengwattana Road
T. Banmai A. Prakret
Nonthaburi, Thailand

Ubon Thailand
61/3 Sappasit Road
T. Nai Muang A. Muang
Ubonratchathani, Thailand

Udorn Thailand
70/15 Soi. Jintakram
Mittapab Road
Udorn, Thailand

[bidston]

thanks marg, sorry nowhere near were i live, but thanks for looking

also thanks to lindsay, will check that out

trying to get my head around ancestry now