View Full Version : very interesting search required please
garstonite
08-08-23, 07:38
Good Morning
John Terence Sherlock b 9/11/1897 in Skerries Dublin
an active IRA member - killed by the Black and Tans in Skerries Dublin 27th October 1920 aged 22 - a statue was erected to celebrate his life
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/119693584/john-terrence-sherlock#view-photo=91864725
..................................
1901 census
Michael Sherlock aged 37 - father
Jane Sherlock aged 38 - mother
siblings
James 13
Luke 11
Mary Ele 9
Joseph 7
JOHN TERENCE 3
Alica - no age given
.................................................. ...........
John Terence known as Terry - has 2 blood relatives who drink in my local and live here in Garston - they tell me that after Terrys death - more or less the whole family moved to the USA . paid for by the IRA
................
I have searched a few sites - but can't find Michael and Janes marriage - the 2 girls would love to find out her maiden name .so when they visit Skerries again they can see if there is any family with that surname left in Skerries
sadly - they tell me that every time they visit Skerries - the family clam up and won't give them any info .no idea why
if anyone has any spare time I would appreciate a little help ....cheers
garstonite
08-08-23, 07:40
just found this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=3qUpNk_RNxU
off out shopping soon will post after 12 noon ...xx
From the 1911 Irish census, Michael and Jane had been married 26 years, so about 1884/5.
From the birth registrations of the children, Jane's maiden name was Duff.
Michael and Jane were married 24 August 1885 at the RC chapel at Skerries in the union of Balrothery. Michael and both the fathers were labourers and Jane a servant. Address for both Skerries. Fathers were James Sherlock and Luke Duff. Witnesses were James Mullen and Jane Shervin (?). Everyone signed.
I used this site: https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/
From the same site, Luke Duff died 14 Jan 1910 aged 81 in Skerries. Interestingly he is listed as a sailor. It must be the right death as it was registered by his daughter, Jane Sherlock. Also says he was married rather than a widower.......
No luck finding him in 1901 (didn't look hard!), but in 1911 there's an Alicia Duff widow living in Skerries aged 80....She died 27 Jan 1913 still aged 80(!) in Skerries. The reg wasn't by a family member, so it would be good to find Luke or Alicia in 1901 to be sure they were a couple.
Ok, they are Luke and Alice Duffe in 1901. He is a retired sailor aged 70 and she is 65. Their address: New Street, Holmpatrick, Dublin, Ireland. Both born Co Dublin.
I thought the Sherlock family might be too difficult, but there's a James Sherlock died 16 Apr 1901 in Skerries, registered by his son, Michael. This James was aged 66. The census was taken 31 Mar so he should be on it. Death says he was married, not a widower. Michael made his mark though, but on the marriage I detailed earlier he signed. Doesn't mean it's the wrong James's death, but proceed with caution because the surname is more common than Duff!
(BTW, with the previous couple I forgot to say, it's always possible Alice/ia was a step mother to Jane Duff. Alice did fill in the boxes for marriage and children in 1911, but they were rubbed out as she was a widow, so shouldn't have completed that part!)
Can't find the above James S on the 1901 census yet.
Found a possible match for the James who died just after the 1901 census now.
He was aged 70 (!) and living at Great Strand Street, Holmpatrick, Dublin with his wife, Bessy aged 65. They were both born Co Meath. They have a couple of grandchildren with them surname Duffy.
As I say, I don't know for sure these are parents of the Michael you are looking at.
Even though Michael and Jane were probably born just too early to be registered for birth, they might both have younger siblings who were, given the ages of their parents (Duff line more certain), so you might be able to work out Alice/ia's maiden name at least, from the registration of any later children.
Ooh I take it all back about Jane Duff being born too soon to be registered!
08 Jan 1865 New St Skerries, Jane dau of Luke and Alicia formerly Hogan. Father's occ sailor.
Found a possible match for the James who died just after the 1901 census now.
He was aged 70 (!) and living at Great Strand Street, Holmpatrick, Dublin with his wife, Bessy aged 65. They were both born Co Meath. They have a couple of grandchildren with them surname Duffy.
As I say, I don't know for sure these are parents of the Michael you are looking at.
I hadn't taken in that Michael (the one who married Jane Duff) was also b Co Meath. Again, he may not have been quite as old as he thought (only by a couple of years).
Here is Michael's reg (or at least, most likely - with the same parents I found in 1901)
Michael Sherlock b 26 Mar 1864 son of James and Betsy formerly Gilligan. Occ of father labourer.
I can't read the place name for this birth....Kentstown? It's in Navan district in Co Meath.
Honestly, I've never found an Irish Catholic family who have all their events at the right times to make them not too difficult to find. All mine are the exact opposite!! lol
The death reg for Bessie Sherlock is two entries after the one for Luke Duff. Bessie, widow, died 29 Jan 1910 aged 69 in Skerries. The death was reg by her dau Lizzie Duffy.
garstonite
08-08-23, 15:23
UNBELIEVABLE Merry - you are a star once again - so Duff - Gilligan - and Hogan are blood related family surnames to look for - I am going over with the girls ( both in their 60's ) My son has lived in Saggart ,Dublin for 29 years - so I have 4 grandchildren there ...I will visit my family and help the girls look for theirs ...a big thanks Merry - I don't know how you do it xxxxxxxx....
garstonite
08-08-23, 15:45
I have just realised - the girls never told me who John Terence Sherlock married ??? can you find that marriage please Merry - I will have a look on familysearch now ...xx
Do you know that he married anyone? He was only 22 when he died.
I've looked at his death reg and it says bachelor.
I realise I've seen this death before. Have we looked for him before?!!
garstonite
08-08-23, 16:48
confused now - been on Skerries FB page and they say John Terence Sherlock never married ....??
garstonite
08-08-23, 16:48
I've looked at his death reg and it says bachelor.
I realise I've seen this death before. Have we looked for him before?!!
Not from me - only found out about him yesterday xx
confused now - been on Skerries FB page and they say John Terence Sherlock never married ....??
Why would you think he had been? He was only 22.
garstonite
08-08-23, 17:15
I presumed they were descended from John Terry - but now I think it is possibly Jane Duff who is their blood relation - I will find out next time I see them - all they could talk about was John Terence and about him being a hero and having a statue erected in his honour ...so I thought they were descended from Terry AS HE WAS KNOWN ?
I knew I'd seen this family before!!
This thread from last year:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showthread.php?t=30823&highlight=john+sherlock
Starts off talking about an Ellen Sherlock b 1905. But around post 18 I say I think it's more likely you should be looking at Ellen Sherlock from Skerries b 19 Aug 1904. Post 31 I post a link to the same census already mentioned in this thread with the children of Michael Sherlock and Jane Duff!
So are the girls you mentioned today the sisters you were helping on the other thread?!!
garstonite
09-08-23, 06:53
Thanks Merry - I am confused - what is the connection to Ellen Sherlock and John Terry Sherlock - if Joseph was Ellens dad - and Michael was John Terrys dad - are Joseph and Michael brothers ????
yes same sisters - I can only post what they tell me
so Ellen b 1905 - do we think Ellen is John Terrys cousin ?
ADDED
the way I see it Ellen Sherlock - THEIR Nan - so - ALL the info you posted on John Terry Sherlock - is completely irrelevant - as it is Josephs and Ruth Ryder Ratcliffes parents we should be looking for ???? so how do the 2 sisters here in Garston think that John Terry Sherlock is THEIR relative - there is no proof ??? led me down the wrong path ??
I'll have to read the other thread again, (well, I should say I'll have to read the other thread, as I didn't read it properly yesterday!).
Will get back here later....
Ok, so that other thread begins with the birth cert of your friends' mother, b 1936 and adopted. Her original birth cert says she was the child of a woman called Ellen Moles nee Sherlock whose husband, Joseph Moles, was dead. You found an Ellen Sherlock on the 1939 census, who was unmarried, because you couldn't find a Sherlock/Moles marriage so thought the mum had lies about her status on the 1936 birth cert. The woman you were looking at is the one you mentioned in the opening post of the other thread - Ellen Sherlock b 1905 in England, the dau of Joseph Sherlock and Ruth Ryder Ratcliffe.
However, I found another Ellen Sherlock who had been married to a Mr Moles (John Moles though rather than Joseph) and had been widowed not long before 1936. The reason you hadn't seen her was because her events happened in Ireland. The 1936 birth cert mentioned a place in Ireland called Skerries which was where this Ellen was from. We decided this Ellen Sherlock b 1904 in Ireland was the mother of your friends' mother and not the English Ellen Sherlock. The Irish Ellen was the sister of JTS who was murdered.
I must have sent you an email with copies of the Irish records (I say I will in the other thread!).
I think after I did that we carried on corresponding about the Irish Sherlocks and that led to JTS the first time around! I didn't remember him yesterday, even when you opened this thread with what happened to him. It was only when you asked about whether he was married and I opened his death cert to see that info and read what was written in the cause of death box that I knew I'd been down this path before and a year ago sounded just right. How did the sisters learn their great uncle came to this fate? Did that come from you, or did they find out some other way?
garstonite
09-08-23, 12:28
They told me Monday about John Terry Sherlock ??...no idea until i speak to them where the info came from - THANX AGAIN MERRY - BE LOST WITHOUT YOU XXXXX
garstonite
09-08-23, 16:40
exactly ...puzzled now ...xx
garstonite
10-08-23, 05:48
Totally confused now - the girls Nan - Ellen Sherlock b 1905 in Everton ,Liverpool ----- parents Joseph Sherlock and Ruth Ryder Sutcliffe - Joseph and Ruth married in 1891 at Christ Church EVERTON,Liverpool ....on Lancsbmd ..... Ruth Ryder Sutcliffe was born 1867 ,West Derby ,Liverpool - on freebmd - so the girls said Ruth and Joseph came over from Ireland to have Ellen - so the family story is very wrong - checking 1901 census now
added
can't find Joseph or Ruth in Liverpool or Dublin in 1901 census ??
garstonite
10-08-23, 05:55
Ruth Ryder Sherlock
Sex Female
Age 34
Birth Year (Estimated) 1867
Birthplace Liverpool, Lancashire
Marital Status Married
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Relationship Code Head
Event Type Census
Event Date 31 Mar 1901
Event Place Everton, Liverpool, Lancashire, England, United Kingdom
Event Place (Original) Everton, Lancashire, England
Event Place Note Thirlmere Road Rydal Street
Sub-District North Everton
Registration District West Derby
Page Number 10
Piece/Folio 84
Schedule Type 51
Ruth Ryder Sherlock's Parents and Siblings
OPEN ALL
Thomas Suteliffe
Father
M
72
Liverpool, Lancashire
Ruth Ryder Sherlock's Spouses and Children
OPEN ALL
Joseph Sherlock
Son
M
8
Liverpool, Lancashire
Ruth Sherlock
Daughter
F
5
Liverpool, Lancashire
Everline Sherlock
Daughter
F
2
Liverpool, Lancashire
Mabel Sherlock
Daughter
F
0
Liverpool, Lancashire
.....................................
so where is Joseph ? I am beginning to wonder if Ellen Sherlock b 1905 - was Joseph the father ?? had he left Ruth ?? Ruth was 38 when she had Ellen
Totally confused now - the girls Nan - Ellen Sherlock b 1905 in Everton ,Liverpool ----- parents Joseph Sherlock and Ruth Ryder Sutcliffe - Joseph and Ruth married in 1891 at Christ Church EVERTON,Liverpool ....on Lancsbmd ..... Ruth Ryder Sutcliffe was born 1867 ,West Derby ,Liverpool - on freebmd - so the girls said Ruth and Joseph came over from Ireland to have Ellen - so the family story is very wrong - checking 1901 census now
added
can't find Joseph or Ruth in Liverpool or Dublin in 1901 census ??
But that Ellen with those parents is not the right person.
The mother of the baby born in 1936 had been married to and been widowed from a Mr Moles and her address was in Skerries, not England. It says all that on the original birth cert for the 1936 baby. The Ellen b 1904 in Skerries married Mr Moles and had two children with him in Ireland. He died before 1936. She became pregnant with your friends' mother and came to England from Skerries to have the baby. She then returned to Ireland and the baby was adopted. She died in Ireland in the 1950s I think (that info is on the other thread).
And she named the baby Alice after her grandmother, Alice Duff nee Hogan!!
garstonite
10-08-23, 07:00
Thanks Merry- so Ellen b 1905 is a red herring ....I understand now so - do I have this right - Ellen b 1904 Skerries - married Mr Moles - divorced Mr Moles - then had the Garston girls mum to someone else and that baby was then adopted in Liverpool- do we know who Ellen b 1904 parents were ???
added - daft question - as Ellen and Mr Moles ( do we know his christian name ?) were divorced - does that mean they were Protestants ??
Ellen was a widow when she had the baby, not divorced. The death details for her husband are on the other thread. Her late husband was called John Moles but she said his name was Joseph Moles when she registered the baby. (maybe the baby's bio father was called Joseph X?)
Ellen's parents were Michael Sherlock and Jane Duff and her brother was (John) Terry Sherlock who was shot by the Black and Tans.
garstonite
13-08-23, 06:16
Thanks Merry - all my questions answered - sorry its late but we had the dog neutered Friday and i have been keeping an eye on her ...xxxx
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