Can anyone find their marriage please?

[Joan of Archives]

So I have looked for this marriage for ages & no joy.

Margaret CAMPBELL born Edinburgh approx. 1848/49, marries either George William COOPER b 1843 Arlesey Beds or William George COOPER b 1845 Arlesey Beds around 1866-68 if we are to believe what she put on the 1911 census :rolleyes:

George W & William G were brothers & the sons of George & Hannah COOPER living in Arlesey Bedfordshire where the Coopers have lived since the early 1450's (that bit was bizarrely easy!) Obviously they didn't have much imagination naming their sons! Unfortunately they seem to sometimes drop one of their first names on subsequent censuses!

Their first child I can find registered to Margaret CAMPBELL COOPER was in 1866 March Q Hannah Cooper, mmn CAMPBELL in Wandsworth.

I've tried every combination I can think of for this CAMPBELL/COOPER marriage but never found it, so either they had 15 kids without bothering or they could have married in Scotland or abroad?

Any ideas welcome!

Thanks :)

[Merry]

If I search Marg* Cooper b Scotland 1848+/-5 the two matches on the 1911 census don't seem to be yours, so could you please post a link?

[Olde Crone]

I've looked on SP for marriages and the only (remote) possibility is betwen George Cooper and Margaret COOPER in 1881. Doesn't really seem likely they'd nip up to Scotland to marry though.

OC

[ElizabethHerts]

Perhaps this wasn't Margaret's first marriage?

[Merry]

I thought that, or George/William had already married and didn't want to be a bigamist!

[kiterunner]

If I search Marg* Cooper b Scotland 1848+/-5 the two matches on the 1911 census don't seem to be yours, so could you please post a link?

I think this is her, Merry, but Ancestry have transcribed her birthplace as Edinborough, Essex! I will submit a correction:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2352/images/rg14_15103_0367_03?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=UMN93821&_phstart=successSource&pId=55924864

[Merry]

Thanks Kate. I just looked at the 1891 census (searched Ernest Cooper b Putney). I don't think I've ever seen a family with such diverse places of birth!!

[Joan of Archives]

I think this is her, Merry, but Ancestry have transcribed her birthplace as Edinborough, Essex! I will submit a correction:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2352/images/rg14_15103_0367_03?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=UMN93821&_phstart=successSource&pId=55924864

My sub has run out but if she's showing as living with Emma & Ernest & she is 62, been "married" for 44 years with 15 kids that's her! :rolleyes:

[Joan of Archives]

I've looked on SP for marriages and the only (remote) possibility is betwen George Cooper and Margaret COOPER in 1881. Doesn't really seem likely they'd nip up to Scotland to marry though.

OC

Does that give any father's details please? Do you have access to SP ? Thank you :)

[Joan of Archives]

Thanks Kate. I just looked at the 1891 census (searched Ernest Cooper b Putney). I don't think I've ever seen a family with such diverse places of birth!!

George W Cooper was a Foreman of Public works so I guess he moved around a lot! I know, it's amazing considering with such a ruddy common name they didn't move from Bedfordshire since records began!

[kiterunner]

Does that give any father's details please? Do you have access to SP ? Thank you :)

Scotland's People is pay per view, Joan.

[Joan of Archives]

Scotland's People is pay per view, Joan.

I thought so, I wondered how OC found that marriage? I thought I found Margaret's birth on there before but I can't find it now ;(

[kiterunner]

I thought so, I wondered how OC found that marriage? I thought I found Margaret's birth on there before but I can't find it now ;(

Searching is free, it's just viewing actual images etc that you have to pay for. They used to charge to view a list of search results in the old days but that is free nowadays.

[Olde Crone]

Joan

I searched for "George Cooper" married to "Margaret" no surname. Quite a few came up but this one caught my eye because her name was Cooper too. I don't really think it's them though.

Edit - I only looked at the free results for marriage. You might have seen a baptism for Margaret, civil registration didn't start till 1855.

OC

[Joan of Archives]

Joan

I searched for "George Cooper" married to "Margaret" no surname. Quite a few came up but this one caught my eye because her name was Cooper too. I don't really think it's them though.

Edit - I only looked at the free results for marriage. You might have seen a baptism for Margaret, civil registration didn't start till 1855.

OC

Thanks OC ! Did you also try William Cooper as the brothers seem to sometimes interchange names lol :d

[Merry]

As well as checking SP for the other forename, you might be able to eliminate the Cooper/Cooper marriage if there are children born in Scotland Cooper/Cooper after the marriage OC mentioned.

[Merry]

So to try and separate the two brothers..... there's:

COOPER, WILLIAM GEORGE mmn ROBINSON
GRO Reference: 1845 S Quarter in BIGGLESWADE Volume 06 Page 52

then this marriage where apparently the same person (!) helpfully married a Smith:

William George Cooper aged 23
6 Jul 1868 Arlesey, Bedford
Spouse Ann Smith aged 25

(Ann's father isn't on this transcription, so I don't know Smith is her maiden name)

Then there's 1871:

George (!) Cooper 26 b Arlesey
Ann 28 b Clifton
children Josiah 8, Ellen 4 (both Clifton) Sarah 2 and Samuel 3 weeks both Arlesey.

I expected the second two children to be Cooper/Smith regs, but there was only one possible match for Samuel (and no other Samuel Coopers with a different mmn) and clearly more than one Cooper/Smith couple in the area. There was more than one match for a Smith child called Ellen and no matches for Josiah.

On the following census the children are the same (no more) and Ann is a widow. She is still living in Arseley.

Of course the only death for either a Wm or a George in Biggleswade district between those two censuses is this one:

Deaths Jun 1878
COOPER George 35 Biggleswade 3b 221


In 1871 there are four George Coopers b around 1843/1845. Husbands of Ann, Emma, Elizabeth and Ellen all in Biggleswade district. In 1881 the husband of Ann is dec'd, the husband's of Elizabeth and Ellen are alive. Just need to find Emma....ok Emma and her husband have moved out of the area. So, obvs not conclusive, but it looks like after 1878 you can't get the two brothers mixed up because one is dead. You could pay £2.50 for the 1878 death entry and see if it does appear to be Ann's husband!


Here's the other brother:

COOPER, GEORGE WILLIAM mmn ROBINSON
GRO Reference: 1843 S Quarter in BIGGLESWADE Volume 06 Page 56

[Merry]

Joanie, I've found the Cooper/Campbell family on every census except the 1871. Do you know where they were? That was the only one I wanted to look at!!

[Merry]

lol found them now in West Ham. Wife transcribed as lodger!

[Merry]

With all those children to register I would have thought if they were not married they might have got caught out at the register office at least once?!! Have you got legitimate style registrations for all the children from the GRO site?

[Merry]

Have you got a birth cert for any of the children to confirm that (on that one at least!) Margaret doesn't say she had a prev marriage? I know it's unlikely, but not impossible.

[Olde Crone]

Yes, I searched SP for William, William George, George and George William. I also searched Cooper to Campbell and Cooper to Cooper, picking out any Margaret/Maggie wife. There were a few Margarets not called Campbell or Cooper, not possible to eliminate them by search listings alone.

I think they probably just didn't marry, too busy with 15 children to get around to it but another VERY remote possibility is a marriage in some obscure church which hasn't yet handed over its register.

OC

[Merry]

I think they probably just didn't marry, too busy with 15 children to get around to it but another VERY remote possibility is a marriage in some obscure church which hasn't yet handed over its register.

OC

I agree with OC. Most likely they didn't marry but if that's the case I would still be wondering if there was a reason, most likely being that Geo/Wm had already married someone else when he met Margaret (I suggest him only because he was a little older so more time to get himself in a fix!)

If they married in a C of E church then it just needs the vicar to forget to do his quarterly return to the GRO and for the church record to not yet be online. If you don't know where they marriage took place then it's impossible to enquire with a local RO. If the marriage was in an obscure church or chapel then you are reliant on the attendance of the local registrar (not a legal marriage if he missed the bus of whatever, but I bet this happened from time to time!), him completing the entry in his records and getting the book back to the register office without mishap. Obviously loads of potential chances for errors to be made!

[Joan of Archives]

Have you got a birth cert for any of the children to confirm that (on that one at least!) Margaret doesn't say she had a prev marriage? I know it's unlikely, but not impossible.

Yup. Margaret COOPER b 10th August 1869, mother Margaret formerly CAMPBELL. Father William COOPER occp excavator.

On the 1891 census William is listed as George William :rolleyes: In 1881 he's William! grrrrrrr ;( As can't find the marriage I don't know if she married William George or George William but I am fairly sure they did this deliberately lol :d It does look like she married the older brother which was George William, so why was he calling himself just William? This family was non conformist so whether that explains the lack of evidence of a wedding maybe?

According to free bmd there was a George William registered Sept 1843 Biggleswade & a William George registered Sep 1845

[Joan of Archives]

With all those children to register I would have thought if they were not married they might have got caught out at the register office at least once?!! Have you got legitimate style registrations for all the children from the GRO site?

I found all the births registered on the GRO site with CAMPBELL as MMN :cool:

[Merry]

It does look like she married the older brother which was George William


I agree as it does look like Ann Smith married the younger brother.

[ElizabethHerts]

Just a thought with the surname Cooper. We had next-door neighbours whose name sounded like Cooper, but it was spelt Couper. You can also have Cowper.

[Joan of Archives]

Just a thought with the surname Cooper. We had next-door neighbours whose name sounded like Cooper, but it was spelt Couper. You can also have Cowper.

Yes, I've seen it spelt like that, I'll try again searching for those variations too thanks :)

[Joan of Archives]

I think this is her, Merry, but Ancestry have transcribed her birthplace as Edinborough, Essex! I will submit a correction:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2352/images/rg14_15103_0367_03?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=UMN93821&_phstart=successSource&pId=55924864

I thought that was her, I have done some delving & found a George William Cooper died Huddersfield 1902, so it would fit.

I have been doing a bit of detective work by looking at the GRO index & doing the maiden name trick on the youngest 2 kids on the 1891.

George William Cooper
48 Head
Margaret Cooper 42 Wife
Margaret Cooper
21 Daughter
Sarah Ann Cooper
19 Daughter
Geo Wm Cooper
17 Son
Herbert Cooper
14 Son
Frederick Cooper
12 Son
Alfred Jas Cooper
8 Son
Arthur Cooper
7 Son
Emma Cooper
5 Daughter
Ernest Cooper
2 Son
Lavinia Cooper
11/12 Daughter

Well, turns out Ernest & Lavinia's mother was Margaret Crotcher!! Then I found this :

Marriages Sep 1894 (>99%)
Bell John Walter Salford 8d 149
Cooper George William Salford 8d 149
Crotcher Margaret Salford 8d 149
Cunningham Elizabeth Salford 8d 149
:eek::eek::eek:

Any ideas? There is no other Lavinia born to mmn Campbell etc I can find!

I've got the digital image of Lavinia's birth cert, father's occp is slightly different ? I have sent ff for the marriage cert as I can't wait to see what is going on:d

[Olde Crone]

Hmmm. There's only one mention of the Crotcher surname on Scotland's people and it's a marriage in 1865 of James to a Susan Gibb.

The odd thing about it though - it's in the same registration district (685) as the unlikely marriage between George and Margaret Cooper! (Sorry about that).

OC

[Joan of Archives]

Hmmm. There's only one mention of the Crotcher surname on Scotland's people and it's a marriage in 1865 of James to a Susan Gibb.

The odd thing about it though - it's in the same registration district (685) as the unlikely marriage between George and Margaret Cooper! (Sorry about that).

OC

Oh God the plot thickens lol :d OC there is a likely nc baptism for Margaret Crotcher b Oct 1848 in Edinburgh, that James was her brother! Someone has Margaret Crotcher in their tree on Ancestry so I've dropped them a message in the hope they know what is going on :rolleyes:

[Olde Crone]

Oh, could Ernest and Lavinia be grandchildren?

OC

[Olde Crone]

James Crotcher married a Margaret McEwen. Did Margaret McEwen (widowed) thenmarry a Campbell in 1861, causing her daughter Margaret to use the surname Campbell? Too tired to pursue this tonight, will pick it up tomorrow.

OC

[kiterunner]

Isn't Margaret Campbell likely to be Margaret Crotcher, sister of James, given the birth year?

[Joan of Archives]

Oh, could Ernest and Lavinia be grandchildren?

OC



Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1894 (>99%)
Bell John Walter Salford 8d 149 Scan available - click to view
Cooper George William Salford 8d 149 Scan available - click to view
Crotcher Margaret Salford 8d 149 Scan available - click to view
Cunningham Elizabeth Salford 8d 149 Scan available - click to view


I don't think so, this marriage looks like it could be my two :rolleyes:

[Joan of Archives]

Isn't Margaret Campbell likely to be Margaret Crotcher, sister of James, given the birth year?

I agree Kate, the dob of this Margaret (Crotcher) fits perfectly with the one on the 1911 census who I am 99 % sure is the same one! There is no other Lavinia birth reg that fits that date & no other marriage for a Crotcher except the Margaret/George William one in 1894!

I have the digital image of Lavinia's birth cert, George William named as the father, occupation is slightly different, he's a railway foreman rather than a foreman excavator for Emma, born 1886.

[kiterunner]

Oh, I see - Margaret Crotcher's parents were James Crotcher sr and Margaret McEwen. I understand your post now, OC.

[kiterunner]

Margaret McEuan / McEwan / Crotcher died 1859 St Giles (Edinburgh), age 48, MMN Walker.

[Joan of Archives]

Margaret McEuan / McEwan / Crotcher died 1859 St Giles (Edinburgh), age 48, MMN Walker.

That rules Margaret senior out nicely then :d

So, the two youngest kids had a different mmn Margaret Crotcher, one is living with Margaret Cooper in 1911. Margaret Cooper 1911's age ties in exactly with the birth of a Margaret Crotcher b oct 1848 Edinburgh. parents James Crotcher & Margaret McEwan. If this Margaret Cooper b 1848 is the same, I cannot find out why she called herself Campbell on the other birth regs?

[Olde Crone]

My internet keeps dropping out.

Where is "Margaret Crotcher" in 1891?

OC

[Merry]

I found all the births registered on the GRO site with CAMPBELL as MMN :cool:

I thought the last two were Crotcher? :confused:

[Olde Crone]

No one called Crotcher on any Scottish census. (SP). It's such an unusual surname I wonder if it was a mistake originally?

OC

[Joan of Archives]

That rules Margaret senior out nicely then :d

So, the two youngest kids had a different mmn Margaret Crotcher, one is living with Margaret Cooper in 1911. Margaret Cooper 1911's age ties in exactly with the birth of a Margaret Crotcher b oct 1848 Edinburgh. parents James Crotcher & Margaret McEwan. If this Margaret Cooper b 1848 is the same, I cannot find out why she called herself Campbell on the other birth regs?

Kate I mean all were registered with MMN Campbell except the last two, they had MMN Crotcher, but the marriage was still after they were born, in 1894, it has to be the right George & Margaret? Why did she lie about her surnane being Campbell?

[Olde Crone]

Merry's post #16 - I've searched for Cooper/Cooper children born after the 1881 marriage. There are several in the right area so I think that rules out the Cooper/Cooper marriage. What a shame!

OC

[Joan of Archives]

Merry's post #16 - I've searched for Cooper/Cooper children born after the 1881 marriage. There are several in the right area so I think that rules out the Cooper/Cooper marriage. What a shame!

OC
Did I mention their daughter Margaret Cooper? She married her cousin, William George & Ann Smith's son, Samuel Cooper :D It's a flipping nightmare!! They certainly had no imagination when it came to names!

I hope this person with Margaret Crotcher in their tree on Ancestry can shed some light on it all!

[Merry]

These people live at Middleton's Entry in Edinburgh, St Cuthberts in 1851:

Janes Chester 35 Head
Margaret Chester 35 Wife
Janes Chester 7 Son
Margaret Chester 2 Daughter

James senr is a 'tamplighter' lol

I also saw that address here (FMP):

First name(s) Dugald B Mce
Last name Crotcher
Place Edinburgh
County Midlothian
Country Scotland
Entry 810
Age 3 years 2 months
Birth year 1846
Burial date 30 Aug 1849
Record set Scotland, Parish Deaths & Burials 1564-2017
Cause of death Hooping Cough
Dataset Title Edinburgh, Grange Cemetery Burials, 1846-1854
Head of household James Crotcher
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Relationship to head Son of
Subcategory Parish Burials
Residence 5 Middleton's Entry
Collections from Great Britain, Scotland
Cemetery Grange Cemetery

[Merry]

There's also these baps

Dougald R., Male, Parents: James Crotcher Labourer & Margaret Mcewan, Born 10 June 1846, Middleton's Entry, Baptised 12 July 1846

and Margaret's:

Margaret, Female, Parents: James Crotcher Labourer & Margaret Mcewen, Born 28 October 1848, Middleton's Entry, Baptised 26 November 1848 By Revd Wm Peddie, D.D.

[Merry]

I hope this person with Margaret Crotcher in their tree on Ancestry can shed some light on it all!

When I looked at trees with Margaret Crotcher in them no one had anything forward for her as they probably didn't look as far as the 1890s or only looked in Scotland! Did you find any with the Cooper marriage?

[Joan of Archives]

When I looked at trees with Margaret Crotcher in them no one had anything forward for her as they probably didn't look as far as the 1890s or only looked in Scotland! Did you find any with the Cooper marriage?

When I search for Margaret Crotcher on Ancestry most come up with trees with her spouse as George William Cooper, using that name there are also trees with just Margaret or Margaret Campbell in! One we are responsible for; we've had a dna match with a Campbell too so there are definitely Campbells involved somewhere! :rolleyes:

[Olde Crone]

I've done a Croucher surname search on SP as that seems a more likely name than Crotcherbut it didn't lead to anything. Merry's Chester family looks good though.

(I have a similar surname thing in Scotland, the name only appears twice anywhere in the history of time, except that it is carefully copied in all the subsequent documents for that family. I suspect the surname was written down (wrongly) in the family bible and used ever forward).

OC

[Joan of Archives]

When I looked at trees with Margaret Crotcher in them no one had anything forward for her as they probably didn't look as far as the 1890s or only looked in Scotland! Did you find any with the Cooper marriage?

I've sent off for the cert for Cooper/Crotcher marriage 1894, as they don't do digital versions.
Should I trawl through the GRO & check what MMN was used for all 15 kids?! I'll need another coffee first lol :d

Unfortunately the trees are all private , so I' ve messaged one with the biggest tree & who has been on Ancestry recently.

[Olde Crone]

FWIW - Dugald's middle name was Barrowman I think. That name will be significant somewhere in this family.

OC

[Joan of Archives]

FWIW - Dugald's middle name was Barrowman I think. That name will be significant somewhere in this family.

OC

That's not what I wanted to hear OC, I need to find a Campbell somewhere lol :d

[Merry]

Should I trawl through the GRO & check what MMN was used for all 15 kids?! I'll :D to need another coffee first lol :d


Well, you did say you had already done that!! :D

It’s quicker to look at FMP than the GRO and then just use the GRO for any missing ones. However my laptop is across the room and Tabitha is snoozing on my lap. If you don’t mind waiting I will look shortly if you don’t have FMP!

[Joan of Archives]

Well, you did say you had already done that!! :D

It’s quicker to look at FMP than the GRO and then just use the GRO for any missing ones. However my laptop is across the room and Tabitha is snoozing on my lap. If you don’t mind waiting I will look shortly if you don’t have FMP!

That would be great thanks, I don't have FMP. Let Tabitha finish her snooze though lol :d I've checked the first couple of kids & the last 4 what more do you want lol :d:d after that I lost the will to live :D I also need to track down the 4
that probably passed away & don't appear on the censuses.

[Mary from Italy]

I've just had a quick look on the GRO site, and there was also a Thomas Cooper mmn Crotcher born in King's Norton in 1874. There's a possible death in King's Norton in 1875.

[Joan of Archives]

I've just had a quick look on the GRO site, and there was also a Thomas Cooper mmn Crotcher born in King's Norton in 1874. There's a possible death in King's Norton in 1875.

Thanks Mary, I can't discount that one either, he probably was theirs because they've had a child in almost every place they lived & Thomas is not a name they've used before lol :d

[Merry]

Hannah 1866 Surrey
William 1869 Greenwich
Margaret 1870 Barking
Sarah Ann 1872 Plaistow
Geo Wm 1873 Birmingham
Herbert 1876 Rutland
Fred 1879 Rutland
Alfred 1882 Beckenham
Arthur 1884 Yorks South Cave
Emma 1886 Tilbury
Ernest 1889 Putney
Lavinia 1890 Claughton Lancs

These are the names I've collected from the census to look for. I'm going to eat my lunch now, so maybe you could look at this list and tell me who you have registrations for? Plus if you have any more names as I may have missed someone? What did M say in 1911? Was it 15/11/4 or something similar?

[Merry]

Damn it! I looked them all up and then lost the post. Things I remember are, I didn't bother with the first two or the last two as you said you had done those.

I couldn't find Sarah Ann, but not looked properly yet.

The one for Geo Wm was Kings Norton 1873 so same area as the one Mary found.

All the rest were in the districts and dates I would have expected and all were mmn Campbell.

[Merry]

I tried the GRO site for Sarah but no matches for Campbell or Crotcher for mmn. I've just discovered there are two places called Plaistow but that shouldn't matter as I didn't restrict the place search.

[Joan of Archives]

Hannah 1866 Surrey
William 1869 Greenwich
Margaret 1870 Barking
Sarah Ann 1872 Plaistow
Geo Wm 1873 Birmingham
Herbert 1876 Rutland
Fred 1879 Rutland
Alfred 1882 Beckenham
Arthur 1884 Yorks South Cave
Emma 1886 Tilbury
Ernest 1889 Putney
Lavinia 1890 Claughton Lancs

These are the names I've collected from the census to look for. I'm going to eat my lunch now, so maybe you could look at this list and tell me who you have registrations for? Plus if you have any more names as I may have missed someone? What did M say in 1911? Was it 15/11/4 or something similar?

Yes she was aged 62 on 1911 census (fits perfectly with Margaret Crotcher's birth in Edinburgh in October 1848) She said she was married, 44 years :d maybe that is a typo!! 15 kids, 11 still living. So there should be 4 deceased somewhere. I'm gonna switch to the laptop rather than my phone, what do you want me to search for next? I thought I'd found Sarah Ann, let me check. Btw, I did read that you should never trust a Campbell lol :d

[Olde Crone]

I looked earlier and couldn't find a Sarah Ann either.

OC

[Merry]

You look for Sarah as I've had enough of that one!

There's 12 names on my list and we know Lavinia died just after the 1891 census in Garstang district, so the 11 living are presumably the rest of my list.

Two of the four dec'd are Lavinia 1890-1891 and Thomas 1874-1875

Two to find. Pity I lost my list as I had typed the year and Q for each reg which would have made the gaps easier to establish. The years in my list above are not exact as they are just from the census :(

[Merry]

Because they moved about so much it's going to be a long job to look for any additional registered children. If you search Cooper with Campbell you need to check each one to see if they died before the next census because they may well be nothing to do with your couple (there were about 60 matches for this name combo on FMP and their index is incomplete!). If you search Cooper with Crotcher you will probably get very few results, but you may miss any where Crotcher has been spelled incorrectly.

If it was my tree I would just say perhaps Margaret had two stillborn children she has included in the number and move on. I would try harder for Sarah Ann though!

[Merry]

I've not looked back, but I thought on one census Sarah Ann just had Essex as her birth place and Plaistow on another. That Plaistow is in West Ham district. I also remember she was 19 on one census so born after March 1871 (as I'm sure (!) she wasn't on the 1871 census) and her brother was reg in Q2 1873 (the first one in Kings Norton) so SA should have been registered Q2 1871-Q3 1872 to fit in the gap.

[Joan of Archives]

You look for Sarah as I've had enough of that one!

There's 12 names on my list and we know Lavinia died just after the 1891 census in Garstang district, so the 11 living are presumably the rest of my list.

Two of the four dec'd are Lavinia 1890-1891 and Thomas 1874-1875

Two to find. Pity I lost my list as I had typed the year and Q for each reg which would have made the gaps easier to establish. The years in my list above are not exact as they are just from the census :(

I'm doing the list atm ! I'll put names, year district & quarter after them :rolleyes:

[Joan of Archives]

Hannah 1866 Surrey mmn CAMPBELL 1866 March Q WANDSWORTH
William 1868 Greenwich mmn CAMPBELL 1868 June Q GREENWICH
Margaret 1869 Barking mmn CAMPBELL 1869 Sept Q WEST HAM
Sarah Ann 1872 Plaistow can't find her yet
Geo Wm 1873 Birmingham mmn CAMPBELL 1873 June Q KINGS NORTON
Thomas 1874 mmn CROTCHER 1874 Sept Q KINGS NORTON
Herbert 1876 Rutland mmn CAMPBELL 1876 Dec Q UPPINGHAM
Frederick 1879 Rutland mmn CAMPBELL 1879 March Q UPPINGHAM
Alfred James 1882 Beckenham mmn CAMPBELL 1882 June Q BROMLEY
Arthur 1884 Yorks South Cave mmn CAMPBELL 1883 Dec Q BEVERLEY
Emma 1886 Tilbury mmn CAMPBELL 1886 March Q ORSETT
Ernest 1889 Putney mmn CROTCHER 1888 June Q WANDSWORTH
Lavinia 1890 Claughton Lancs mmn CROTCHER 1890 June Q GARSTANG

[Merry]

Well done, those are the same as I had! Not really much in the way of gaps.

How long did Margaret say she had been married? 44 years?? We don't know if that's the time she spent with GW or 1911-44? Which is his death?

[Joan of Archives]

Well done, those are the same as I had! Not really much in the way of gaps.

How long did Margaret say she had been married? 44 years?? We don't know if that's the time she spent with GW or 1911-44? Which is his death?

As his last appearance was on 1901 census I've ordered the pdf of what I am fairly sure is his death between then & the 1911 where she was a widow, it's registered in Huddersfield 1902, aged 59 which would be perfect for George William b 1843.

As for her "44" years married I take that with a very large pinch of salt, but I think she means co-habiting :rolleyes: I reckon she means 44 years up to 1911, meaning she was roughly 18 when they "married" the first time, maybe by jumping over a broomstick lol

[Merry]

Ok, so no gap at the beginning if that's the case.

I agree with you about the 1902 death.

[Joan of Archives]

Merry did you say you found James & Margaret Crotcher on a census?

[Joan of Archives]

These people live at Middleton's Entry in Edinburgh, St Cuthberts in 1851:

Janes Chester 35 Head
Margaret Chester 35 Wife
Janes Chester 7 Son
Margaret Chester 2 Daughter

James senr is a 'tamplighter' lol

I also saw that address here (FMP):

First name(s) Dugald B Mce
Last name Crotcher
Place Edinburgh
County Midlothian
Country Scotland
Entry 810
Age 3 years 2 months
Birth year 1846
Burial date 30 Aug 1849
Record set Scotland, Parish Deaths & Burials 1564-2017
Cause of death Hooping Cough
Dataset Title Edinburgh, Grange Cemetery Burials, 1846-1854
Head of household James Crotcher
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Relationship to head Son of
Subcategory Parish Burials
Residence 5 Middleton's Entry
Collections from Great Britain, Scotland
Cemetery Grange Cemetery

Merry when it says Janes Chester is that supposed to be James Crotcher? Is this on FMP?

[kiterunner]

You can only find out whether it actually says Chester or Crotcher on the image by paying to view it on SP, Joanie.

[kiterunner]

On FamilySearch it has the baptism of a John Gilroy Gallantly, born 1826 Glasgow, parents James Gallantly and Margaret Crotcher. Scotland's People has the marriage of James Gellatly and Margaret Crocker in 1821 in Glasgow. I also saw a Thomas Crotcher in Glasgow around that time come up on another search that I did. Obviously I don't know whether they are connected to the Edinburgh family but anyway, maybe searching for Crocker will help.

[Merry]

Merry when it says Janes Chester is that supposed to be James Crotcher? Is this on FMP?

That's the transcription that appears on all sites (I copied it from Ancestry). As Kate says you would have to pay to see it on SP.

[Joan of Archives]

That's the transcription that appears on all sites (I copied it from Ancestry). As Kate says you would have to pay to see it on SP.


It's not on SP !! :confused: However there is a Margaret Crusher on the 1851 census on there? She lives with a James!

CRUSHER
MARGARET
1851
F
35
685/2 198/ 4
ST CUTHBERT'S
MIDLOTHIAN
CRUSHER
JAMES
1851
M
35
685/2 198/ 4
ST CUTHBERT'S
MIDLOTHIAN
CRUSHER
MARGARET
1851
F
2
685/2 198/ 4
ST CUTHBERT'S
MIDLOTHIAN
CRUSHER
JAMES
1851
M
7
685/2 198/ 4
ST CUTHBERT'S
MIDLOTHIAN

[Merry]

lol I didn't mean on SP - on all the other sites!

Here's the bap for James Crusher/Chester etc:

James, Male, Parents: James Crotcher Labourer & Margaret Mcewan, Born 17 October 1843, Middleton's Entry, Baptised 19 November 1843.

[Joan of Archives]

lol I didn't mean on SP - on all the other sites!

Here's the bap for James Crusher/Chester etc:

James, Male, Parents: James Crotcher Labourer & Margaret Mcewan, Born 17 October 1843, Middleton's Entry, Baptised 19 November 1843.

So do you think the SP one with Crusher is the same family? Presumably they hold the original images?

Btw James Crotcher snr appears to have remarried in 1859 as soon as Margaret senior died! :eek:

[Merry]

So do you think the SP one with Crusher is the same family? Presumably they hold the original images?

Yes, I would imagine pretty bad handwriting given the different transcriptions.

That's what you pay for on SP; to see the original image.

[Olde Crone]

I have a lot of Scottish certificates and I have to say the handwriting is very peculiar, not the simplified copperplate we are used to on English certificates but what I can only describe as a rounded italic. The handwriting is so similar I can only think it was widely taught - either that or there was only one person writing certificates (registers)!

OC

[Joan of Archives]

I have a lot of Scottish certificates and I have to say the handwriting is very peculiar, not the simplified copperplate we are used to on English certificates but what I can only describe as a rounded italic. The handwriting is so similar I can only think it was widely taught - either that or there was only one person writing certificates (registers)!

OC

Oooo so you are the person to go to to read the old handwriting then? :d I can remember learning to write in primary school, back then we had to all write the same way, the letters had to be a uniform size & we used lines to guide us. I cannot really be that old surely?! :d:d Our desks had ink well holes :rolleyes: Where has the time gone?

[Joan of Archives]

So I have received a reply on Ancestry, she says she has Margaret down as Croucher :rolleyes:However that could be the way it's transcribed. I'm waiting on the marriage cert from 1894 (after all 15 kids were born!) & George W Cooper's death cert. Once they arrive I might get the digital copies of the 2 Kings Norton births to see if they are the same parents & where they were living to prove they were the same couple.

Strangely I found a Margaret Campbell aged 12 on the 1861 England census, she is "nurse" to a family, (I think it says niece) her age fits though & I am wondering if she was orphaned & sent to England to live, maybe with distant relatives & they changed her surname, as perhaps they didn't like it lol :rolleyes::d

Isabella Stewart
52
Head
Jane Stewart
27
Daughter
Margret Campbell 12 Nurse
Mary Makin
25
Servant
Alice Creswell
32
Servant
Mary A Gregory
16
Servant
Edward Huggin
49
Servant
Ann Doyle
39
Servant
Annie Longtail
25
Servant
Fanny Howard
36
Servant


Household schedule number 117
Piece 2954
Folio 96
Page number 23

[Mary from Italy]

"Nurse child" usually meant something like foster child.

[Joan of Archives]

"Nurse child" usually meant something like foster child.

It's quite hard to read but looking at it again it does look like niece ? If anyone wants to look at the image I've put the ref above.

[kiterunner]

It looks like niese but I suppose they mean niece. The aunt, Isabella Stewart, is down as a widow, restaurant keeper, also born Edinburgh.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8767/images/LANRG9_2951_2956-0616?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=fb9bafa80ca0073a3c2a68d7d46bd28d&pId=14483146

[Joan of Archives]

It looks like niese but I suppose they mean niece. The aunt, Isabella Stewart, is down as a widow, restaurant keeper, also born Edinburgh.

I've had a look on SP & I can't track an Isabella Stewart on there, assuming she would be the sister of either James Crotcher or his wife Margaret McEwen before marriage :confused:

[kiterunner]

On the 1851 census Isabella Stewart's birthplace is Blair Atholl, Scotland:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8860/images/30859_A008145-00344?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=UMN93859&_phstart=successSource&pId=11664692

I wouldn't assume that Isabella is the sister of either James Crotcher or of his wife because we don't know whether the niece is the right Margaret Campbell.

[Joan of Archives]

On the 1851 census Isabella Stewart's birthplace is Blair Atholl, Scotland:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8860/images/30859_A008145-00344?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=UMN93859&_phstart=successSource&pId=11664692

I wouldn't assume that Isabella is the sister of either James Crotcher or of his wife because we don't know whether the niece is the right Margaret Campbell.

That's true!

Ok so no marriage cert yet, but, I received the pdf for George William Cooper d 1902. He is the one that was living on the 1901 census with Margaret Campbell/Croucher/Crotcher etc :rolleyes: The address is the same as 1901, informant was the son William. His occupation was Foreman at water works, slightly unfortunate he died of Bright's disease (kidney failure) a bit ironic in a way ;( Anyway that confirms to me that the family in 1891 is the same & it definitely seems to be that Margaret was not actually married to him until 1894, after all the children had been born. This makes me think as he had a chronic disease he basically knew he was dying, probably even back then in 1894 so they would need to be married for her to get a widow's pension of any sort.

She was living with Emma & Ernest in Bristol from 1911 onwards, another son also moved to Bristol to be near the rest of the family. I still can't find a birth reg for Sarah Ann, born Plaistow around 1870-1872. It might be they didn't register her before they moved again when Thomas & Geo Wm jnr were born in King's Norton. I've tried Sally/Sarah/Sara/Susannah. Maybe they registered her in the new district?

So the marriage cert should make interesting reading! I have a hunch that Geo Wm was already married & possibly they had to wait until is first wife passed away. I might have a look to see if there are any possible marriages registered in Biggleswade for him, prior to 1870. He could of course had 2 women on the go, I've got one in my tree where the chap had a wife & a mistress in the 1840's, with about 7 or 8 kids with each one! apparently they were aware of one another too :eek:

[Joan of Archives]

I've tracked down Sarah Ann Cooper, married to a John Pedder in Lancashire 1901.


Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1895 (>99%)
Cooper Sarah Ann Huddersfield 9a 537 Scan available - click to view
Dyson John Smith Huddersfield 9a 537 Scan available - click to view
Pedder John Huddersfield 9a 537 Scan available - click to view
Wood Hannah Huddersfield 9a 537 Scan available - click to view

[ElizabethHerts]

I found this but I'm rather confused as you said 1901.

First name(s) John
Last name Pedder
Name note -
Age 33
Marriage year 1895
Marriage date 31 Aug 1895
Residence York, England
Marriage place Marsden
County Yorkshire
Country England
Father's first name(s) William
Father's last name Pedder
Spouse's first name(s) Sarah Ann
Spouse's last name Cooper
Spouse's birth year 1871
Spouse's birth date 1871
Spouse's age 24
Spouse's father's first name(s) William
Spouse's father's last name Cooper
Record set England Marriages 1538-1973
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Collections from England, Great Britain

On FMP but no image.

[Joan of Archives]

I found this but I'm rather confused as you said 1901.

First name(s) John
Last name Pedder
Name note -
Age 33
Marriage year 1895
Marriage date 31 Aug 1895
Residence York, England
Marriage place Marsden
County Yorkshire
Country England
Father's first name(s) William
Father's last name Pedder
Spouse's first name(s) Sarah Ann
Spouse's last name Cooper
Spouse's birth year 1871
Spouse's birth date 1871
Spouse's age 24
Spouse's father's first name(s) William
Spouse's father's last name Cooper
Record set England Marriages 1538-1973
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Collections from England, Great Britain

On FMP but no image.

Yes I meant on the 1901 census, that's them :)

[Mary from Italy]

The image is on Ancestry:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2253/images/32355_249183-00100?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=19a751e596bd74c987d21210cdcae96d&pId=7697278

Age 24, father William Cooper, foreman, and one of the witnesses was George Wm Cooper.

[kiterunner]

I still can't find a birth reg for Sarah Ann, born Plaistow around 1870-1872. It might be they didn't register her before they moved again when Thomas & Geo Wm jnr were born in King's Norton. I've tried Sally/Sarah/Sara/Susannah. Maybe they registered her in the new district?


She isn't with the family on the 1871 census so presumably she was not born in 1870.

[Joan of Archives]

Still no marriage cert for Margaret Campbell sometimes Crotcher Cooper, the suspense is killing me :rolleyes:

[Joan of Archives]

How long are certificates taking to come? :rolleyes: I have a horrible feeling it's the wrong one now ;( I've forgotten what a horrible waiting game family history is lol :d

[Olde Crone]

Joan, I waited over two weeks for a pdf, so I can't imagine how long for a real certificate!

OC

[Joan of Archives]

Joan, I waited over two weeks for a pdf, so I can't imagine how long for a real certificate!

OC

Oh no, I hope not! ;( The pdf death cert was really quick!

[Joan of Archives]

It's here!!! I am even more confused now lol :rolleyes:
Marriage cert :
1894 solemnized at Sacred Trinity church, Salford in the county of Salford

August 8th 1894
George William Cooper age 52 Batchelor
Occp Labourer 20 Cross Street father George Cooper Labourer

Margaret CROTCHER age 45 Spinster 20 Cross Street father James Crotcher (deceased) Labourer.

George William Cooper his mark
Margaret Crotcher

All the parents match up with what's on here & their ages.

I'm stunned, they're either lying & George William was actually a widower by then or Margaret suffered from amnesia :d Out of 15 kids, 3 had her mmn as Crotcher, the last 2 b in 1888 & 1890. All the others had mmn Campbell. I am going to get the digital downliad for Thomas b 1873 mmn Crotcher & George William jnr (yes really) b 1874 mmn Campbell reg in Kings Norton to check their addresses are the same.
My head is spinning! Geo W said he was a foreman on the censuses, I am wondering if he knew he was dying & married her because she would get a pension from the waterworks?

For reference the last child Lavinia, was born in Claughton where they were living in 1891.

[Olde Crone]

I hesitate to post this as it's completely off field, but, from my own research and from my mother, I know that Scots are very patriotic and clannish. My mother and her family claimed to be clan McDonald. I've found nothing to support that in my research, but I wonder if Margaret had a late burst of clannishness, lol and wanted to ally herself with the Campbell clan. Scots women mostly kept their own surnames when they married (before 1900) so they didn't have the same attitude to surnames that we have today.

As I say, a wild suggestion.

OC

[Joan of Archives]

I hesitate to post this as it's completely off field, but, from my own research and from my mother, I know that Scots are very patriotic and clannish. My mother and her family claimed to be clan McDonald. I've found nothing to support that in my research, but I wonder if Margaret had a late burst of clannishness, lol and wanted to ally herself with the Campbell clan. Scots women mostly kept their own surnames when they married (before 1900) so they didn't have the same attitude to surnames that we have today.

As I say, a wild suggestion.

OC

Lol OC I would not be surprised! I mean this family is so like the family on WDYTYA with Lesley Manville the other night :rolleyes: Geo W Cooper was a foreman on the censuses then he was a labourer that couldn't sign his name! I am shocked in a way that Margaret Crotcher could sign her name, but I wonder if her McEwens were actually educated & maybe it is her appearing as Margaret Campbell in the 1861 census, if she lost her parents maybe the woman looking after her decided Crotcher was a pretty awful name & not as posh as Campbell?

[Olde Crone]

I've been surprised at how well educated my Scots ag labs appear to have been. They could all read and write well enough to sign their names, so I wouldn't find it odd that Margaret could sign her name but her English husband couldn't.

OC

[Joan of Archives]

I've been surprised at how well educated my Scots ag labs appear to have been. They could all read and write well enough to sign their names, so I wouldn't find it odd that Margaret could sign her name but her English husband couldn't.

OC

Yup that would make perfect sense!:d

[Merry]

There are no Cooper/Crotcher births on FMP after 1894.

[Joan of Archives]

There are no Cooper/Crotcher births on FMP after 1894.

I think she was too old by then! :d

I'm just ordering the 2 births in Kings Norton that I think are their 2 kids, one has mmn Crotcher one has mmn Campbell! :rolleyes:

[Joan of Archives]

Ok so the plot thickens! :d

I've found a Susan CROTCHER b. Edinburgh in Kings Norton marrying a Samuel CAPENESS in 1876 :rolleyes:

Turns out she was Susan GIBB who married my Margaret Crotcher's father James Crotcher in 1859 in Edinburgh after Margaret's mother died!

Merry can you find Margaret CROTCHER b 1848 Edinburgh on any 1861 census please? I can find her on the 1851 Scotland one. I am now wondering if she came to England with Susan as she was her step mother. I can't find James CROTCHER in 1861 anywhere or his death. I assume he did die because Susan remarried at least once!

[Joan of Archives]

Ok so................

First birth was :

George William Cooper boy (again) b 3rd May 1873 at 10 Acre Street Northfield Worcester. Father George William Cooper :rolleyes: railway labourer
mother Margaret Cooper formerly Campbell *coughs* :d

2nd birth:

Thomas Cooper boy b 17th July 1874 at 10 Acre Street Northfield Worcester. Father George William Cooper :rolleyes: railway labourer
mother Margaret Cooper formerly CROTCHER :rolleyes:

Liar liar pants on fire, this is just like Lesley Manville's lot on WDYTYA lol :d

[Olde Crone]

Who registered the births? Mum or Dad?

OC

[Joan of Archives]

Who registered the births? Mum or Dad?

OC

The mother Margaret with the amnesia OC lol :d

[Merry]

I think she was too old by then! :d



I thought that was the whole point of me looking! I thought you were using my search result as a method to 'prove' the marriage certificate wasn't for some other (younger) couple with the same details.

[Joan of Archives]

I thought that was the whole point of me looking! I thought you were using my search result as a method to 'prove' the marriage certificate wasn't for some other (younger) couple with the same details.

Nope, I think we had our wires crossed somewhere, sorry :o I am still looking for Margaret Crotcher/Campbell in the 1861 census, I am not sure if she was in England by then or not. I can't find her on either England or Scotland censuses. I wonder if she was with her stepmother Susan? I can't find her in 1861 either nor James Crotcher's death. ;(

[Merry]

Have you bought the Crotcher/Gibb marriage entry? If yes, have you checked the address/ess from it in 1861?

[Merry]

No time to look more -

marriage Birm 1876 Susan C to Samuel Capeness. Together in 1881 she is b Scotland. Living King's Norton.

[Joan of Archives]

No time to look more -

marriage Birm 1876 Susan C to Samuel Capeness. Together in 1881 she is b Scotland. Living King's Norton.

Yes Merry, I mentioned this one I'm sure it's Margaret's stepmother. Also Margaret & Geo W were living in Birmingham about the same time & had the 2 kids there (where she couldn't remember if her correct "maiden" name was Crotcher or Campbell :rolleyes:
So I do wonder if Margaret will be with Susan on the 1861 census if her father had akready died by then. I haven't got the marriage entry of Susan Gibbs to James Crotcher in 1859.

[kiterunner]

Trouble is there are a lot of missing bits of the 1861 census.

[Joan of Archives]

Trouble is there are a lot of missing bits of the 1861 census.

Just my luck they're on that bit! Does that apply to the Scottish 1861 too do you know? It's strange why I can't find James Crotcher's death though :confused:

[kiterunner]

There don't seem to be any missing Scottish pieces of the 1861.

[Merry]

There's a James Crotcher on the Army Lists 1861 in barracks in Dublin. Could be the son perhaps?