Esther Watkins Again

[Steve Bridges]

Hello-
A few months ago, I inquired about Ann Watkins and her daughter Esther. There were a few interesting leads, but I didn't solve the mystery of Ann. However, having dug further on Esther, I have found what I am pretty sure is her marriage in 1865. The image is attached.

None of the possible family members seem to live near Hereford in censuses except one at Canon Pion - but the ages don't seem to match - and John and Anne are living somewhat further away near the Welsh border.

Leaving aside my difficulty in finding the groom and bride's fathers/families on the censuses (there are quite a few Watkins' in south-western Herefordshire), I'd also like to know why they might have been married in the Primitive Methodist Church in Hereford rather than one of the chapels closer to their place of abode, like Craswall (https://www.myprimitivemethodists.org.uk/content/chapels/herefordshire/a-d/craswell_primitive_methodist_chapels_herefordshire ). British religious history (Methodist) is not something I know much about.



Thanks
Steve Bridges, Sydney, Australia.

[kiterunner]

This is a link to the old thread so we can refresh our memories:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showthread.php?t=31582

[Olde Crone]

I can't give you a definitive reason for the marriage at that particular chapel, but my own family history has an extreme example of just how seriously Primitive Methodists took their religion. One of my relatives attended an Ebenezer Chapel nearly all her life, as did her family and her husband's family. Her husband was buried in their burial ground. A new Minister came to the chapel, my relative (and others) fell out with him and my relative had her husband disinterred and reburied in another chapel ground miles away.

This goes to prove that people sometimes have the oddest and, to us, trivial reasons for their actions and maybe in your case, it was down to like or dislike of a Minister. Or maybe something else, lol.

OC

[Steve Bridges]

Sorry, OC, but what is an Ebenezer Chapel within Methodism? I couldn't see on a Google search result what distinguishes them from other types of chapels.
PS Your family story is interesting; one of my Australian (Scottish) ancestors was also buried in a different cemetery from others in his direct family; could be a similar issue, especially since Methodism seems to favour individual relationships with God and a willingness to disagree within each community?
Steve

[kiterunner]

This is John and Esther in 1871, in Hereford (though I assume you already have it):
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7619/images/HEFRG10_2700_2704-0443?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=UMN91359&_phstart=successSource&pId=1962031

John Watkins Head Mar 31 Ag Lab Herefordshire Canonpyon
Esther Do Wife Mar 29 Ags Wife Breconshire Hay
William Do Son 6 Herefordshire Ewyas Harold
Anne Do Daur 5 Herefordshire Abbeydore
Mary Jane Do Daur 4 Do Do
John Do Son 2 Mo Do Wormbridge.

[kiterunner]

On the 1891 census, John and Esther have a lodger Nicholas G Jones, 18, coal miner, born Weobley. Is he from the Jones family mentioned in the other thread? If so then it proves that you have the right Esther.

[Olde Crone]

I think Ebenezer Chapel is just a more or less random name, taken from the Old Testament. It is a fairly common name for independent places of religion, not specifically Methodism. I guess - but don't know - that the meaning (stone of help) was a dig at the established church, which offered little or no practical help to the poor. Most of the independent religions offered practical help within their congregations and often outside as well. The established church hated this because it weakened their power over the poor.

OC

[Steve Bridges]

Thanks, kiterunner-
Yes, that does seem to be a match. If he was indeed born in Canon Pion around 1840, then I can match him up with other censuses such as the 1871 one you mention. Here's the 1841 one: https://www.ancestry.com.au/discoveryui-content/view/2575211:8978?tid=&pid=&queryId=e49d891c226a596c923e8cb10567e618&_phsrc=hue3087&_phstart=successSource

What concerns me is that on his marriage certificate, John says he is 23 years old (in January 1865), which suggests a birth date closer to 1841-2. That's a 1-2 year gap from the census dates...

[kiterunner]

People were often pretty vague about their ages in those days.

[Steve Bridges]

Thanks for the help and reassurance folks.
Kiterunner, Nicholas G Jones is indeed from the family line (my g-g-uncle), so that links them together nicely. It just didn't help that the Jones' married other Jones' and the Watkins' married other Watkins'! Not direct cousins, thankfully (perhaps I shouldn't be judgemental...).
Intriguingly I just discovered a brother of John Watkins (Esther's husband), George, married on 12/06/1859, at age 16 and 11 months, to a 24 year old woman (Mary Prosser) in Hereford, she apparently having been pregnant (their son James was born in September Quarter. 1859) That one I'm going to follow up!

[Merry]

Hi Steve, is their son the first of these two (both districts in Herefordshire, so more than one Watkins/Prosser couple!)?

WATKINS, JAMES mmn PROSSER
GRO Reference: 1859 S Quarter in WEOBLEY Volume 06A Page 448

WATKINS, JAMES mmn PROSSER
GRO Reference: 1860 M Quarter in HEREFORD AND DORE Volume 06A Page 496

There's a notice in the Hereford Journal 22 June 1859:

WATKINS - PROSSER June 12th at Berrington Street chapel, by the Rev. R.S. Short, Mr. George Watkins of Wellington to Miss Mary Prosser of the same place.

Very unusual for a young lad to be called Mr.

Wellington is in Hereford district so I wonder if the Q1 1860 is their James?

I'm not convinced about your young groom unless you have some proof I can't see!

There seem to be quite a few potential Prosser/Watkins marriages in Herefordshire so lots of chances for confusion.

I also did a search on the 1861 census for George Watkins (variable spellings) b 1842+/-2 years and married (anywhere in Eng/Wales with any place of birth) and there were none!

EDIT - I couldn't find a James with parents George and Mary in 1861 yet neither of those James's (regs listed above) seem to have died before the census unless they moved to a different district, which would take me too much time to work out. Were you under the impression the child survived?

[Merry]

I've just seen where your info probably came from. I see your George on the 1881 census with older wife Mary and three children b Staunton on Wye, inc James aged 21. Have you found this family in 1871 or 1861? I'm just wondering if any are George's step children?

EDIT they are on the 1871 together with the same eldest two children.

and Oooh, you were right! They are together in 1861 and George says he is 18 and married, which proves FMP's effort at transcribing them must be incorrect (I'm looking on Ancestry now)!!

So, I take it all back lol Also you were right that the Q3 1859 birth is probably their child given S on W is in Weobley district.

[Steve Bridges]

Thanks, Merry.

Yes, an intriguing story. I agree that if the Hereford Journal is correct (perhaps I should order the certificate to verify), he is indeed very young!

I found a Mary Prosser on IGI baptised 06/12/1835 at Byford, which matches Mary. There may be more to come...

[Merry]

Yes, I'd be very surprised if the marriage certificate shows full age for George.

[garstonite]

I am not jumping in to the thread - but my John Merrick / wife Constance Prosser - - Merrick from Norton Canon for around 200 years - BUT - Byford is 3 miles from Norton Canon - so if you do go back with Prosser could you let me know please - My G G Grandmother was Mary Ann Merrick born 1852 in Ocle Pychard - came to Garston in 1871 - Ocle Pychard is 15 miles from Byford ... but the Prosser name in Norton Canon / Byford 3 miles apart intrigues me - cheers