Ann Watkins and her illegitimate daughter 1840's

[Steve Bridges]

Hello-

After the wonderful help the forum gave me last year with my inquiry about William Bridges' mixed up death in Southampton, I thought I'd give it another go.

I have a real mystery on my hands with a young woman called Ann Watkins. She gave birth to an Esther Watkins in Clyro, Radnorshire, who was baptised on 14/04/1842. I'm pretty sure this Esther turns up in the 1851 Census in Weobley, Herefordshire, listed as a 'boarder' with Hannah Jones (n. Kinnersley), along with Hannah's 3 grandchildren. Her birthplace is listed as Hay (just across the river from Clyro) The 3 grandchildren's mother was also an Ann Watkins, who married Thomas Jones in 1845 in Weobley. I suspect therefore that Esther is actually Hannah's step-granddaughter.

Ann's father is listed as William Watkins on her marriage certificate. The only Anne Watkins I can tie (through FamilySearch) to a father named William, who is closest to Weobley, was baptised in 1821 in Upper Sapey, which is still a fair distance away.

I cannot make the link between Upper Sapey and Ann having a daughter in Clyro, especially since there is no Ann Watkins on the 1841 Census near there who is of the same age. There is a Watkins family in Clyro in 1841 Census, but their dates do not match her, unfortunately. The only Ann Watkins in 1841 closer to Weobley is in Canon Pion, as an agricultural labourer.

So, was Ann born in Upper Sapey in 1821, went to Canon Pion by 1841, had a baby (Esther, who ends up in Weobley by 1851) in Clyro in 1842 and then married Thomas Jones in Weobley in 1845?

Any help in solving this conundrum would be much appreciated.

Sorry for the big dump of information.

Steve Bridges
Sydney

[Merry]

especially since there is no Ann Watkins on the 1841 Census near there who is of the same age.

The same age as what?! Is Ann's age recorded on the marriage certificate?

Unless Thomas and Ann moved to another area, it doesn't look as if they had any more children. Might the reason Hannah has all the children and there were no more, be that Ann or Thomas or both had passed away? This is the only death reg in Hay or Weobley districts who looks like a possible match for Ann:

JONES, ANN 29
GRO Reference: 1850 D Quarter in OF WEOBLEY Volume 26 Page 166

I did look for a Thomas Jones widower in the area in 1851. The only one I could see that looked possible is this:

1851 census

Westhopehill, Canon Pion

Thomas Jones head widower 37 ag lab born Hereford Almeley

No one else in his household.

Maybe he is too old? Do you have an age for your Thomas?

If Thomas died before 1851 there are several to choose from without knowing his approx age.

Obviously none of this directly helps with Ann's origins, but the more you know, the greater the chance of tracing her back accurately.

EDIT: I just looked at Jones baptisms in Almeley. There's one for a Thomas in 1814 but his mother is Elizabeth, not Hannah (father John), so probably not the person you are looking for unless John remarried to a Hannah!!

[Merry]

Who are the 1845 marriage witnesses?

and the occupation of the groom?

[Merry]

I'm presuming Thomas is this one?

Bap 30 Jul 1815 at Weobley, parents John and Hannah.

(parents married 1803, but did you get Hannah's maiden surname from someone else's tree?!! I'm not saying it is wrong, just risky, especially when you have the name Jones to contend with!)

[Merry]

Oooh, is this Thomas Jones with a new wife in 1861?

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8767/images/HEFRG9_1824_1828-0262?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=19563634

The two daughters fit well.

[kiterunner]

Do you have a Esther's birth certificate, and if so, does it give an occupation and address for Ann in any more detail than the baptism record?

[Steve Bridges]

Thanks, everyone, for the suggestions. A lot to reply to, but here's what I know.
Thomas Jones, born 1815 in Weobley, was the son of John Jones and Hannah Kinnersley, who were married at Dilwyn in 1803, where Hannah and John came from (source: Family Search parish register - I have the image).

In Thomas and Ann Watkins' Marriage Certificate, it just says "of full age". Thomas' father John is a 'labourer', as was Ann's father, William. The witnesses were John and Martha Jones, Who were Thomas' brother and sister-in-law.

Ann did die in 1850, aged 29. Thomas then remarried an Eliza Pugh from Canon Pion in 1852. They had one more son, Thomas, born in 1854. That's why I also thought he was the one on the 1851 Census at Canon Pion, from Almeley, (as Merry suggested), which doesn't work. I had thought perhaps that he was a grieving widower who went somewhere else, leaving the 3 girls with his mother, and met Eliza Pugh there. Otherwise, I can't find him on the 1851 Census (or later ones).

On Ann's daughter (?) Esther's Birth Certificate from Clyro, Ann is a 'single woman' with no occupation.

I think that answers most of the replies, thank you.

My mystery is indeed compounded by having the name Jones with ancestors born and living near the Welsh border. I have extended my search for Ann Watkins into Wales, but without much success - it seems to be a common surname there.

Either Ann Watkins is from the Canon Pion branch of the family (there are other Watkins' living there in 1841 and 1851 but no baptism record for an Ann there), or possibly from Upper Sapey, which as I said, seems feasible but a 'longer shot'. An Ann Watkins was baptised there on 15/11/1820 with parents named William and Mary.

Any further ideas are welcome on Ann and if and how she moved around. I could be wrong about her being Esther's mother over in Clyro, but then why did she turn up as a 'boarder' with Hannah Jones (Kinnersley) in 1851? - the ages and place of birth match.

[Steve Bridges]

Revision - sorry, Thomas Jones does turn up in the 1861 Census again, with his new wife and children, but not 1871, so I'm ordering a death certificate for a Thomas Jones from Weobley District in late 1861.

[kiterunner]

There is an Ann Watkins marriage 29 Jan 1844 at Upper Sapey, to an Edwin Pitt. On the 1851 census Ann Pitt is age 30, born Upper Sapey. The transcription of the marriage record gives her father's name as William Watkins. Her eldest children on the 1851 census are named Mary and William (matching the names of the parents of Ann Watkins who was baptised in 1820 - it was pretty usual to name your eldest children after your parents.) So I don't think your Ann is the one from Upper Sapey.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8860/images/HEFHO107_1980_1980-0801?pId=7958592

[Steve Bridges]

Thanks, kiterunner, I suspect you're correct. Oh dear...

The only other Ann Watkins' with a father William, that match that were 1) baptised on 28/10/1821 in what is called Monmouth. However, it says it is in Gloucestershire in the FamilySearch database. I thought it was in Wales? 2) Another Ann Watkins is from Lancashire, but I don't know if that is likely. 3) Another is from Enfield is unlikely because Ann's age at death doesn't align with the baptism date...

[kiterunner]

Or it could be that your Ann wasn't baptised or her baptism is not available online.

[Merry]

FMP has a couple of transcriptions of baptisms for Anne Watkins they say are within five miles of Weobley (I haven't checked that). Exact date (in first case) and occs have not been transcribed:


Lyonshall, Herefordshire 1823 parents William and Elizabeth

Mansell Gamage, Herefordshire 26 Dec 1824 parents William and Mary Ann

She could easily have come from further away though, or as Kate said, not been baptised or her baptism was somewhere not yet online. She might have been in service a long way from 'home' when she became pregnant/had her baby, or she might have been 'sent away' by her family to have the child because she was unmarried. There are a lot of possible other scenarios too!

[kiterunner]

FamilySearch has the exact date for the Lyonshall one as 16 Mar 1823. And gives the parish for the other one as Mansel Lacy.

[Steve Bridges]

I thought I would add to this by asking a slightly different question. Are members aware whether it was common practice in the UK for young women with illegitimate children to go to another town or parish when giving birth? Might there been anything different about Clyro in this regard, being right on the border of England and Wales? Especially since Ann's daughter Esther is listed as being in the Census as being born in Hay (on Wye). It is possible, searching further afield, that Ann could be from Monmouth.

[Steve Bridges]

Sorry, I replied before your messages appeared. So, yes on the being 'sent away' question. Is Monmouth too far away from Clyro?

I suspect given the (hopefully correct) age on the death certificate as 29 in 1850 rules out Lyonshall and Mansell Lacey in 1823 and 1824. Unless she was baptised as a small child rather than a baby.

[Steve Bridges]

...oops, or Mansell Gamage...

[Merry]

She could have been baptised as a small child, she could have travelled to have her child, or any number of other possibilities. She could have been under age at her marriage so chose to add on a year or two etc etc you could see if you can eliminate the 1824 and 1825 children, but then you will be back to square one again!

[Steve Bridges]

I'm not sure this thread has much life left in it, but reviewing the 1841 Census, an Ann Watkins is at Lawton's Hope Farm near Canon Pyon (a short distance from Weobley), is aged 20 (which fits nicely) and is an F S (farm servant?). I can't find another that is closer. However, I take Merry's point about baptism dates. Hopefully not totally back at square one again... The Mansell Lacey (Gammage?) and Lyonshall ones don't match as well with her confirmed death age of 29 in 1850.

[Merry]

FS generally means female servant rather than farm servant :)

[Steve Bridges]

Ah, that might make more sense; she is also shown on her marriage certificate as a Servant. Such a shame she died in 1850, as I might have traced her birth and by association her parents etc. from the 1851 Census...