finding James father

[benrymnd]

I have come across a problem in that James marsh born Nov 1807 and christened in 1808 in St Helens Lancashire has his mother is shown as Mary no surname but I cannot find his father. Any help with finding his father's or his mother's surname would be most helpful.
Regards Ray

[Merry]

Is this about the James Marsh who married Mary Houghton in 1831? I think you previously believed this was his baptism (thread from 2020):

Name: James Marsh
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 10 Oct 1808
Baptism Date: 6 Nov 1808
Baptism Place: Saint Helens,Lancashire,England
Father: George Marsh

Have you managed to eliminate this baptism?

[kiterunner]

I can't find the PR image (for the baptism mentioned in post #1) on any site apart from on FamilySearch which has two films 107327871 and 107327873 covering St Helens baptisms and burials 1713-1812 and 1778-1812, but those are locked and it doesn't even say they can be viewed at FamilySearch Centres.

If I am looking at the right transcription on FamilySearch and on Ancestry, it says he was born 11 Oct 1807 and baptised 1 Nov 1807 (not born Nov 1807 and baptised 1808) and gives his mother's name as Mary Marsh. I would imagine that he was illegitimate and that there is no record of the father's name. Where have you found the version of the record where his mother's surname is not given?

[Merry]

Is one of James's children your ancestor? If yes and they are one of the children born after 1837, do you have the birth cert?

[kiterunner]

There is an entry in the Lancashire Archives Catalogue dated 3 Nov 1807: Sutton. Order of filiation and maintenance of James, bastard child of Thomas Unsworth of Whiston, servant, and Mary Marsh, singlewoman. It comes under Wigan.

https://archivecat.lancashire.gov.uk/calmview/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=Q%2fS%2fP%2f2558%2f88&pos=34

[Merry]

I just looked at the number of Ancestry trees with James Marsh and Mary Houghton recorded. 75 trees and at least six different couples taken to be James's parents (and I didn't look at all 75!).

1851 James 44 b Parr, Lancs
1861 James 54 b Sutton, Lancs
1871 James 63 b St Helen's, Lancs
1881 James 73 b St Helen's, Lancs

1886 24 Jan (probate index), death reg aged 78 Also same age on gravestone:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/mediaui-viewer/tree/177237495/person/272299250799/media/0a5491bc-c4b7-4bcc-8725-c9f67ee85250

So, from the above, April 1806-April 1808 would appear to cover his date of birth, but we can't tell how accurate those records are. For what it's worth, the age of James's dau, Mary Ann, on the grave is correct as she is shown as aged 6 months for the 1841 census.

The witnesses at the 1831 wedding don't seem to help... James Southern (serial witness) and Samuel Daniels, who may be the chap in St Helens aged 40 on the 1841 census (married Elizabeth Banks in 1827).

[benrymnd]

Thank you everyone I think kiterunner has found him.

[benrymnd]

Thank you Merry for that bit of information on his daughter Mary Ann didn't know she had died so young. I did have a membership of Ancestry but it ran out in Feb before I got to my Marsh family, been researching Bennett, Horton, and Danson families in the last couple of years. I tend to wait for offers and then join Ancestry. So I am sitting back and waiting.

[Merry]

Thank you everyone I think kiterunner has found him.

How do you know James isn't the son of George? Have you been able to eliminate that James?

[benrymnd]

His children are on my wife's side of the family. By researching back with the information the family has we know that James' child William was the father of my wife's Grandfather.

[Merry]

From memory, was William b about 1850? I think he was one of two I couldn't find a birth certificate for!

Anyway, we still seem to have a problem that we don't know which James Marsh is yours - the illegitimate son of Mary Marsh or the son of George Marsh, both born around the same date.

[Merry]

There's a birth reg in 1849 Wigan district for Wm Marsh mmn Houghton, but I thought that was a different family? (EDIT son of John Marsh and Margaret nee Houghton, m 1841, Wm b Ashton in Makerfield (Wigan District)).

[benrymnd]

I am certain he is the illegitimate son of Mary as William his son is the grandfather of my wife's grandfather George Ernest Marsh.

[Merry]

I am certain he is the illegitimate son of Mary as William his son is the grandfather of my wife's grandfather George Ernest Marsh.

How do you know James wasn't the son of George? You thought he was in 2020, so something must have changed your mind.

[benrymnd]

I will have to look at why I changed my mind about his father my mind is going in swirls at the moment with all the different information I am accumulating.