View Full Version : Margeret (Lucy) Rothwell nee Williams born 1834
Hi Margeret Lucy Williams born in Denbighshire in 1834; marriage to John rothwell in 1857 in Ormskirk father Samuel Williams on Census’s After their marriages her place of birth is correct . I am doing a ancestry tree and want to get the parents correct ,there are a few suggestions on ancestry to say mother is Catherine parry also born in that area of wales and suggest a marriage in1825 Flintshire of a Catherine Parry and Samuel Williams . how do I prove or disprove this marriage . The welsh names are quite common ,so I don’t want to make any mistakes Any ideas ? Thanks
kiterunner
26-09-22, 15:40
For a start, you need to look at her exact birthplace, not just the county. If I am looking at the right 1881 census entry for the Rothwells, her birthplace is given as Wrexham. Also her father's occupation - policeman on her marriage cert. So you would want to find her family on the 1841 and 1851 censuses to see the names of the other family members, and if she has siblings born after 1837, look them up on the GRO birth index to get mother's maiden name. Also look for a baptism for Margaret / Lucy and see what her mother's name was.
Thanks kite will check it out .
Hi , Not had any luck as yet the only ones I have found in Wrexham don’t seem to be the right ones and the name obviously is very common .
The 1857 marriage record gives the bride's age as 19. I doubt she would say she was a minor if she was actually 23!
kiterunner
26-09-22, 18:39
She is 19 on her marriage record which would mean she was born about 1838, not 1834.
Edit - snap, Merry!
kiterunner
26-09-22, 18:46
This is the 1834 baptism of Margaret daughter of Samuel Williams and Catherine Parry:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2972/images/40612_B0151253-00099?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=UMN26583&_phstart=successSource&pId=2714927
Samuel Williams, a miller, of Flint, so it doesn't seem to fit with the other information that we have.
Hmmm, some trees on Ancestry have Margaret/Lucy born 24 Jul 1834 and bap 27th July 1834 in Flint, Flintshire with the same parents names you mention in your opening post.
Ignoring the fact that this baptism is too early Wrexham isn't in Flintshire, here is my transcription:
Margaret the daughter of Samuel Williams of Flint in the Parish of Flint in the County of Flint, miller, and of Catherine his wife who was the daughter of Henry and Eleanor Parry was born in the 22nd of July 1834 and was baptised on 27th July 1834 by me Thomas Aubrey.
So, wrong place, too early and wrong occ for father.
This is a year too early really...
These are to certify that Margaret Williams daughter of Joseph Williams and Elizabeth his wife was born in Cerybryn (?) in the parish of Ruabon in the county of Denbigh 25th April 1837 .
Ruabon is quite close to Wrexham.
Hi I saw the last census , but there is another birth Of a Margeret 1837 Wrexham father Moses Edward Williams mother Sarah Griffiths . And on one later census for her birth it says wales Wrexham .
There is one tree that is saying mother of Margeret is a Margeret forrester wales with a Samuel Williams .
On another tree they are saying Margeret Lucy rothwell married a James hall after her marriage to John Rothwell .
kiterunner
26-09-22, 21:53
A lot of trees are wrong. You need to check each of those to see whether they are right or not.
Catharine 1799 Parry
BIRTH1799 NEW Denbighshire, Wales
DEATHJan 1867 Holywell Flintshire Wales NEW
sources (13)records (7)
Family Info
Father
Thomas Parry NEW
Mother
Mary NEW
Spouse
Samuel 1802 Williams (1802–1876)
Married 1825
Children
Anne 1828 (1828–)
Henry 1832 (1832–)
Joseph 1837 (1837–)
Margaret 1839 (1837–1909)
Jane 1839 (1839–
Kate 1840 (1840–) This is a new list on a tree on ancestry . Whether it will help or not it says Samuel born Wrexham .
Showing Margeret born in 1839,
Hi asked a tree owner for info on Samuel and Margeret , they pointed out the non conformist record of the birth of Margeret In Flint it mentions Samuel his father Catherine the wife father Henry of Sam but I can’t read the italics for sams mothers name and it looks like the date is 1834 but again it isn’t clear . I’m having issues viewing the censuses on ancestry as they never come up as a full page and can’t alter them .or focus . I clear all cookies etc but it doesn’t make any difference . Maybe you can see the mother of Samuel . Thanks
The non-conformist record kiterunner linked to in post #7 (is that the one you meant? No paternal grandparents mentioned so that confused me!) is the same one I transcribed in post #8. It’s too early to be your Margaret.
The person with the tree is pointing out to me that the transcription from the non conformist church record father of Samuel Henry , are correct and it is Margeret birth in 1834
. So I will have to ask her how she comes to that conclusion as you are saying it’s too early . We know that Catherine parry was born in Flintshire . ?
It would be really helpful if, when you post info from Ancestry you could post the link showing where it came from. It just took me since I posted last to find a tree with that Williams/Parry info and the same children.
The one I looked at (don't know if it's the same one as you mention?) took me to the 1841 and 1851 census records for Samuel and Catherine:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8979/images/FLNHO107_1406_1407-0149?pId=14072067
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8861/images/FLNHO107_2500_2501-0479?pId=16090401
So, again the issue is, firstly according to the 1851 Margaret is born in Flintshire and secondly she was 6 in 1841, so too old to be the one who married John Rothwell.
Don't you think people get carried away and forget Wrexham District doesn't appear on the 1841 census, so just pick records from the next county!!
I didn't know the last bit, below, about Wrexham census before!!
The 1841 census returns for the whole registration district of Wrexham, Denbighshire, were believed to be missing. However, the original enumeration books for the town of Wrexham were discovered in a bookshop, and are now deposited in the Denbighshire Archives.
lol imagine wandering in and finding those?!!
I see the 1841 census for Wrexham town has been published as a paperback:
1841 Census for Wrexham Town (Paperback)
Clwyd Family History Society
However, I've not found anyone selling it. Are you a member of RootsChat? There seems to be a few people doing lookups from this book, though they were a few years ago now.
hi I’m sorry merry issues seem to follow me , I’ve got a new iPad but ancestry view on census is not working on my pad properly , I go to view and it only shows a half a page which I can’t alter , I agree with you looking at her marriage she is nineteen so born approx 1838/39 , so the birth date is wrong on most of the trees . Have a lot say 1834 , but there is one which states born 1838 but with the same people Sam and Catherine parry . So we are looking at Margeret birth around that time .
I am not a member in roots chat but will have a look . Thanks
so born approx 1838/39
1837/38!
kiterunner
27-09-22, 08:49
I see the 1841 census for Wrexham town has been published as a paperback:
1841 Census for Wrexham Town (Paperback)
Clwyd Family History Society
However, I've not found anyone selling it. Are you a member of RootsChat? There seems to be a few people doing lookups from this book, though they were a few years ago now.
Clwyd Family History Society sells it for £11.50.
http://www.clwydfhs.org.uk/publications/otherpubs.htm
kiterunner
27-09-22, 08:54
Clwyd FHS's information says that "Two of the missing books containing the Wrexham town census were found by a member of the Clwyd Family History Society. These have now been deposited at Denbighshire Record Office, in Ruthin, but transcripts are available for purchase from the society. They are not available elsewhere." So it is not the whole of the 1841 census for Wrexham, just part of it.
Hi I have seen the marriage of Samuel and Catherine parry in 1825 in Flintshire . I think there are a few children that follow 1926/27 , then we see the family on the 1841 census , with Margeret age 6 which isn’t good as the age is too old , but could her age be wrong .?
It's unlikely her age is wrong as you also have the 1834 birth and baptism. Also, yours was born in Wrexham according to the 1871 and 1881 census, so not even the same county.
I don't know if anyone else can make the final step to either confirm or (more likely!) eliminate this Margaret.....I have lost the will to live over her!
Below...1851 census, Margaret Williams aged 14 b Wrexham, the niece of Edward or Judith Lewis:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8861/images/DENHO107_2502_2502-0959?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=16120704
Marriage of Edward and Judith - 1844, Judith is surname Parsonage, a widow, nee Pritchard:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/62104/images/004328393_00024?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=d921e724219b9494cf60592a0cebcd2e&pId=78394
This, 1832 marriage below, is presumably that of the parents of Margaret who is in the 1851 census above, given the witnesses are Edward Lewis and Mary Parsonage. (in 1850 Mary Parsonage became Mrs Mary Done, wife of Richard Done and is also on that 1851 census with the Lewis couple. These days we would say she was Edward Lewis's step-daughter, but dau-in-law was commonly used instead).
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/62103/images/004631639_00020?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=psY33725&_phstart=successSource&pId=841163
I can't find any baps for children of Samuel and Margaret and there are absolutely loads of Willams/Pritchard birth registrations after 1837.
So, the good news is that this Margaret does have the correct father's name, but was he the policeman?!!
Judith Pritchard was bap in 1786 at Llanferres, Denbighshire, dau of Edward and Mary. She had several siblings including Margaret, bap either 30 Dec 1798 or 04 Jan 1799 (two identical entries, dau of Edward and Mary, formerly Edwards).
So, this younger sister, Margaret, should be the one who married Samuel Williams in 1832.
Hi merry ,This marriage me: Margaret Prichard
Gender: Female
Record Type: Marriage Banns (Marriage Bann)
Marriage Banns Date: 25 Nov 1832
Marriage Banns Place: Brymbo, Denbighshire, Wales
Marriage Date: 1832
Residence Place: Wrexham
Spouse:
Samuel Williams
Page number: 136 do you think that coukd be our Samuel and Margerets mother ?
Sorry that should have said I found this marriage lol
That's the banns for the the same marriage I posted a link to in post #30, isn't it?
I don't know what you mean by:
do you think that coukd be our Samuel and Margerets mother ?
Samuel and Margaret who married in 1832 are the parents of the Margaret who is a niece in 1851, but I don't know if she is the same Margaret who married John Rothwell. ie is the groom in the 1832 marriage the policeman?
I looked on the wales 1841 census for Margeret Williams and found one in the same place as the marriage with only her and a 80 year old Margeret Williams nobody else . ?
I’m sorry merry I didn’t see that post your right with everything you have found , so that’s looking like the right person as the birth would fit better . And it fits the criteria , Samuel could have become a policeman later , So we may not find that . But you are a true star , x
I would never have found all of that info without you .x
so that’s looking like the right person as the birth would fit better .
STOP - NO!! You can't say she is the right Margaret!! I said she is a person to investigate. If we can't say her father is a policeman then we can't say she is the one.
You need to access the Wrexham 1841 census via that book or RootsChat and keep your fingers crossed it turns up something useful, be it this Margaret or another.
If you look at the GRO indexes you will see how many Margaret Williams were registered in Wrexham district at the start of civil registration, plus your Margaret may have been born a little earlier. Remember in 1851 if your Margaret is in England it may only say Wales for place of birth.
Yes I understand so I need to check the 1841 census for Wrexham , I’ve got it .
Hi I’m on roots chat and a member checked out the Wrexham 1841 census for me there were four Margeret Williams nine of the right age , and no Samuel .
So did you get the full details for each household where the Margaret was the correct age?
Don't understand how there can be 4, but 9 of the right age! Should that be the other way round?
kiterunner
29-09-22, 15:10
Maybe it was a typo for "none"?
Sorry ,they said there were four Margeret Williams but none of the correct age , no Samuel on the census .
Ok, well we know that only part of the census for the town of Wrexham was recovered, so that leaves the rest of the town and the whole of the rest of Wrexham registration district missing, so maybe Margaret and her family are elsewhere within that district. :o
This person said they had a booklet produced by the Wrexham FHS in alpha order of the two Wrexham divisions .
hi I tried looking for Margeret rothwells death , but couldn’t find what I thought was the correct one looking at the areas as there are a few Margeret rothwells living in different parts of Lancashire . John is living with his son and family and daughter in 1891 in Eccleston . But no Margeret .so I presume she had died any ideas
Also Isreal is living in Northumberland in 1890s and I think he married there I have checked Free bmd but can’t find his marriage on there . There is a marriage but a few prospective spouses ? I think he then emigrated to New Zealand with his wife and child . .?
I have limited battery life on my phone so won’t do searches today. In 1891 does John say he is a widower?
If he does, then list all the deaths for Margaret between 1881 and 1891. Then list all the Margaret’s in 1881 and see which of those also appear in 1891. You should be left with a list of those that may have died. You may be able to establish which deaths belong to which Margaret by doing this.
There’s only one before 1891 as a lot of the deaths are babies and children . That is death 1891 haslingden . Age 46 , which makes birth 1835 . There is one in 1891 in haslinden living at the golden cup inn was 55 in 1891 birth approx 1839
Where was your couple in 1881? And where was John in 1891?
The Haslingden death is 1881 not 1891.
There are three others at Stockport 1885, Blackburn 1886 and Oldham 1890. First and last are aged 50 and the other 52.
kiterunner
01-10-22, 09:19
Don't forget she could also be listed as Lucy.
John was with his son Alfred and family and Alfred’s sister in Eccleston st Helen’s in 1891 , so I was looking around that area of lancs , but of course there’s nothing to say she didn’t die elsewhere . Some tree have her dying in 1889 in Tunstall row , but don’t say where . But I’ll look at the others .
I’ve checked free bmd Lancashire online. And Lancashire bmd , but there isn’t a Margeret, Lucy that will fit the age , and there is a Elizabeth Nancy in Middleton. that would fit but I’ve never seen Margeret use the name Nancy .?
kiterunner
01-10-22, 13:38
I should think she is most likely to be listed as Margaret if there is no Lucy who fits. The trouble is she doesn't seem to have died in the area where she was living in 1881 or where John was in 1891 so it's hard to know which death is hers.
Hi , yes I can’t seem to find her ,I think some of her children moved up to Northumberland , whether John did too ,I don’t know as one tree I’ve seen are saying his death in Northumberland . Isreal rothwell moved up there and married there and I think he emigrated to South Africa with a young child Aaron . I did find a birth for a Aaron rothwell mmn strong , 1893 but couldn’t find a marriage between a rothwell and strong in Northumberland . I did see a document somewhere which I thought I had added to my data , it mentioned adoption . Just can’t find it . I can find Isreal emigration . I will check for johns death ,
There is also another boy born his name was Christian rothwell .
hi John rothwell was living in Northumberland with his son Alfred and family on the 1901 census . So John coukd have died there . will check
The Haslingden death is 1881 not 1891.
This is the Haslingden Margaret:
Burial: 8 Sep 1881 St James, Haslingden, Lancashire, England
Margaret Rothwell -
Age: 46 years
Abode: George Street
Buried by: Richard El Crawley Boevey
Register: Burials 1865 - 1882, Page 485, Entry 4067
Source: Original Parish Register at Lancashire Archives
In 1881 she is at George ST with her husband William.
There are three others at Stockport 1885, Blackburn 1886 and Oldham 1890. First and last are aged 50 and the other 52.
The 1881 census has Margaret Rothwell, widow, aged 46 living in Stockport. I can't find her in 1891 so the 1885 death could be her.
There's a Margaret Rothwell aged 46 in Blackburn in 1881. She is married with no husband with her, but not a second incantation of your Margaret as she was also born in Blackburn. The 1886 death could be her.
In 1881 there's another John and Margaret Rothwell (aged 41) living in Oldham. He is still there in 1891 but is a widower. I expect the 1890 death is hers.
So, whilst I can't be 100% with the above, all the Lancashire deaths have been eliminated.
Don't forget she could also be listed as Lucy.
I’ve checked free bmd Lancashire online. And Lancashire bmd , but there isn’t a Margeret, Lucy that will fit the age , and there is a Elizabeth Nancy in Middleton. that would fit but I’ve never seen Margeret use the name Nancy .?
I took the above to mean that kiterunner had pointed out that she might have been listed as Lucy and your response was to say you had looked and there wasn't one. That's why I moved on to eliminating the Margarets.
But what about this one?
Deaths Sep 1889
Rothwell Lucy 57 Prescot 8b 472
I know she is slightly too old, but have you eliminated her?
John is living with his son and family and daughter in 1891 in Eccleston .
So, John was in Prescot district in 1891.
I’ve checked free bmd Lancashire online.
Ah, I read that as FreeBMD and Lancashire BMD, but I'm thinking perhaps you didn't look at FreeBMD? https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Lancs BMD is a great site but you do need to check their coverage includes what you are looking for as they have not transcribed everything yet.
So, you knew John was in Eccleston in 1891 (so Prescot district), and if you had looked al Lancs BMD coverage list for deaths you would have seen this:
PRESCOT See Huyton to Whiston below
Huyton 1837-1905 Prescot PRE None
Huyton with Roby -1971 Prescot HWR None
Kirby -1971 Prescot None
Knowsley 1971- Prescot KNO None
Prescot 1837- Prescot HUY None
Prescot and Huyton -1971 Prescot PH None
Whiston -1971 Prescot WHI None
The right-hand column is "Years Indexed", so None in every instance.
No , I saw the Lucy death ,but the age wasn’t correct ,so I discounted it . Thanks
Like I previously said John is in inorthumberland. With hides family On the 1901 census and Margeret isn’t on it so I presume she must have died prior ,
Like I previously said John is in inorthumberland. With hides family On the 1901 census and Margeret isn’t on it so I presume she must have died prior ,
John had already been recorded as a widower in 1891.
No , I saw the Lucy death ,but the age wasn’t correct ,so I discounted it . Thanks
You discounted it, or you eliminated it?
Hi merry ,I have a bit of a puzzler for you , I belong to ancestry now and trees come up with the person who is on my tree , but as I can see are not correct . I have sent a few questions to this particular tree owner as they have no source etc to prove or disprove that the person is right or wrong .they have my John rothwell marrying a Margeret Forrester ,in 1857 in Ormskirk it says she was born in Denbighshire in 1840 ,our John married Margeret (lucy williams in 1857 at Ormskirk parish church . The rest of their tree with all the children in Northumberland are correct and they have Margeret dying in St. Helens Tunstall row . Now it coukd be a good reason , whilst I have been waiting for their reply I tried a search for ms Forrester birth in Denbigh but wasn’t successful . You may have your own ideas to whether this is the same person as our Margeret Williams ? Let me know your thoughts ? Regrds Chrissie
So the children they have recorded for their Rothwell/Forrester couple are the children you know to be Rothwell/Williams?
The easiest way to demonstrate they have gone wrong (not too surprising given Margaret is Lucy on some records) is to show them the birth registrations for the children with mmn Williams.
I remember you can't access the GRO index for some reason, but if you list the FreeBMD versions of the Birth Registrations for the children I will post up the GRO index versions and then you can send them to the tree owner.
Hi merry that’s a great idea , as the mmn won’t be as they are saying , you are a genius . I knew you would have a answer . Re.chrissie x
Whilst I was waiting for your list, I thought I'd look at this tree for Rothwell/Forrester, but I can't find it. Can you post a link please?
Hi , I’m sorry I don’t know how to share from the share sign I have never done it before .
I don’t know what the share sign means!
Just tell me the names of the children and when and where they were born.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/31720312/family/familyview?cfpid=222292851705#:~:text=View%20focus %20person-,henriksen,-_%20Watson%20Family%20Tree
Thanks. So are those the children you have? Alfred, Sophia, Israel and Margaret?
ROTHWELL, ALFRED WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 593
ROTHWELL, SOPHIA WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1864 D Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 671
ROTHWELL, ISRAEL WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 684
ROTHWELL, MARGARET ALICE WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1876 M Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 843
Hi thanks yes that’s great definetly Williams . There’s another tree with Margeret Williams . Showing a birth in Flintshire with Samuel Williams and Catherine parry as parents But yet saying she was born in Denbigh on the tree as the census says she was ? So one of them is wrong she’s either born in one or the other lol if I do my own tree the dates etc must be correct . As this person as shown the baptism in Flintshire . Which I think I have seen before . .?
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