Maybe a last grasp at Peter Henry Harrison

[Margaret in Burton]

http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=10966

That’s a recap.

When he worked down the pit they referred to him as ‘ the little Italian’ , which he strongly denied. He refused to talk about his family, just said he wasn’t wanted.

1911 and 1921 census says he was born in Rotherham, Yorkshire in 1885. Nobody with that name was.

Daughters DNA throw up some Italian. Elder daughter 3% and younger daughter 6%. Definitely not from my side. To get that sort of percentage match what number of cousin should I be looking for.

OH had three cousins on that line. I don’t have anything to do with them but one has tested and does show up in my daughters matches. She has a 10% match with 670 cM
No visible tree but I suspect the one she has is based on the wrong information I gave them years ago when I thought he was the Peter Harrison in York. Only discovered my mistake when the 1911 census came out and that Peter Harrison was still in York and the one I needed was in Ashby de la Zouch.

Any tips

[Margaret in Burton]

I missed the N off Harrison. Can an admin add it please

[kiterunner]

3% - 6% could be from a 2xg-grandparent or 3xg-grandparent.

[Margaret in Burton]

Peter is my daughters great grandfather

[kiterunner]

So it could be that Peter had an Italian parent or grandparent.

[Margaret in Burton]

He really railed against being referred to as Italian from what I’ve been told. He got quite angry.

[Margaret in Burton]

I didn’t look at the cousin match’s ethnicity. Kite runner has. She has 18% northern Italy.

Looking like Peter had an Italian father or grandfather

[Margaret in Burton]

Just remembered that my father in law met an Italian girl during WW2 when he was stationed there. He wanted to marry her. In fact I found a photo after he died and his brother said it was her. Apparently Peter absolutely refused to accept his marriage to an Italian girl and he obeyed his father.

[Merry]

Nothing to do with what you are asking specifically, Marg...

I wonder if you remember Peter Harris b 1886 Q1 Dudley district? His parents moved to Rotherham and both died in 1900. There was a question as to whether their son had travelled to Canada, but there was also a death in Rotherham district in 1921 Q3 for a Peter Harris aged 35. We were not sure if this was the same man b 1886.

I looked for this Peter Harris (the one who died in 1921) on the 1921 census and this is him:

Peter Harris
b 1885 at Oldbury, Worcestershire, England
living at Rawmarsh, Rotherham, Yorkshire (West Riding)

In 1891 he was recorded as born in Round's Green Worcestershire. That's right next to Oldbury, though neither of them are in Dudley district (both in W Brom I believe), but the birth reg is the right one as it has the correct mmn!

Anyway, I think that fully eliminates this 1886 Peter, if you have a list of people to eliminate - given he is on the 1921 census in Rotherham when your PHH was elsewhere.

[Margaret in Burton]

Nothing to do with what you are asking specifically, Marg...

I wonder if you remember Peter Harris b 1886 Q1 Dudley district? His parents moved to Rotherham and both died in 1900. There was a question as to whether their son had travelled to Canada, but there was also a death in Rotherham district in 1921 Q3 for a Peter Harris aged 35. We were not sure if this was the same man b 1886.

I looked for this Peter Harris (the one who died in 1921) on the 1921 census and this is him:

Peter Harris
b 1885 at Oldbury, Worcestershire, England
living at Rawmarsh, Rotherham, Yorkshire (West Riding)

In 1891 he was recorded as born in Round's Green Worcestershire. That's right next to Oldbury, though neither of them are in Dudley district (both in W Brom I believe), but the birth reg is the right one as it has the correct mmn!

Anyway, I think that fully eliminates this 1886 Peter, if you have a list of people to eliminate - given he is on the 1921 census in Rotherham when your PHH was elsewhere.

Thanks Merry my PHH was in Ashby de la Zouch in 1911 and 1921

[Olde Crone]

At the risk of muddying the waters, would Lorenzo Harrison be worth investigating? Lorenzo seems an unusually Italian name for a Harrison. I'm thinking he would have dropped that name of he was angry at the Italian connotation. He wasn't born in Rotherham though. Sorry if this is a stupid idea!

OC

[Merry]

Though Lorenzo's birth has no middle name:

Births Sep 1885
Harrison Lorenzo Guisbro' 9d 487

his baptism is Lorenzo John Harrison:

Lorenzo John Harrison bap 20 Sep 1885 at Kimberley, Holy Trinity, Notts, parents Henry and Elizabeth Harrison

This is probably his dath reg:

Deaths Sep 1954
HARRISON Lorenzo J 70 Basford 3c 64

In 1911 he and his wife (m 1910) are here (Ancestry have his first name as Lorenz):

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2352/images/rg14_20364_0661_03?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=4ded4e2272db209ea1c83684e1b68cc1&pId=5279562

in Kimberley Notts whilst PHH is in Ashby de la Zouch.

[Olde Crone]

Ah right, Thank you Merry. Definitely a stupid idea then!


OC

[Merry]

It's never stupid to eliminate someone :D

I was thinking about this 'little Italian' 'insult'. I wondered why Italian in particular? I don't think he looks particularly Italian and a lot of men were short, so I don't know how significant his height would be. I see from his army papers that aged around 18 (1903) he was 5'4 7/8" so, short by today's standards, but not so much for that time frame.

So...why little Italian? Not small Spaniard or tiny Frenchman? I feel as if the nickname must have come from something he himself had said and then perhaps regretted mentioning - people can be so quick to pick up on something and not let it go if they think it irritates, but they just think it's funny. Of course just because others, or Peter himself, thought something doesn't make it true, unfortunately.

Marg, I am not liking your use of the phrase "last grasp" lol We can never give up!!

Hve your daughters got any close(ish) DNA matches that you suspect come from PHH's line, or are they all from other parts of their tree?

[Margaret in Burton]

It's never stupid to eliminate someone :D

I was thinking about this 'little Italian' 'insult'. I wondered why Italian in particular? I don't think he looks particularly Italian and a lot of men were short, so I don't know how significant his height would be. I see from his army papers that aged around 18 (1903) he was 5'4 7/8" so, short by today's standards, but not so much for that time frame.

So...why little Italian? Not smallish Spaniard or tiny Frenchman? I feel as if the nickname must have come from something he himself had said and then perhaps regretted mentioning - people can be so quick to pick up on something and not let it go if they think it irritates, but they just think it's funny. Of course just because others, or Peter himself, thought something doesn't make it true, unfortunately.

Marg, I am not liking your use of the phrase "last grasp" lol We can never give up!!

Hve your daughters got any close(ish) DNA matches that you suspect come from PHH's line, or are they all from other parts of their tree?


He was livid that my father in law wanted to marry an Italian girl and bring her back to England. Refused to allow it. Fil was stationed in Italy during the war and ate with an Italian family. He loved Italian food and as he wouldn’t touch any other ‘foreign’ food I asked him why. He said he’d had the proper thing during the war with a family. I asked why would this family singled him out. He replied, rather sheepishly, there was a girl involved. I found a photo after he died and OH and I didn’t know who it was. I asked his younger brother and he said it was the Italian girl he’d wanted to marry. He’d kept her photo all of that time.

As for daughters matches. Kate is looking through them. There’s one obvious one to me. OH’s first cousin. She has 18% Northern Italy and 1% southern Italy. She is older than OH, born in 1948 and one of twins. We don’t have anything to do with them, and they wouldn’t know anything anyway. She has a tree and it’s wrong. She has the Peter in York. She’s very scatterbrained

Other than her they are all other side of the family so far.

[Olde Crone]

Merry, that's why I was drawn to Lorenzo. I was thinking that he dropped the name because it was too Italian, but some people knew his real name and why. I know this isn't him, but as you say, why "little Italian"?

OC

[Merry]

Of course a lot more people were very openly 'racist' then, along with being sceptical about the lifestyles and food preferences of other nationalities, so not wanting someone to marry an Italian might not be anything more than being scared of something you are not sure about.

https://www.ourmigrationstory.org.uk/oms/italian-immigration-to-britain

Of course an Italian would be Catholic - would that have been a reason to not want a family member marrying one?

[Margaret in Burton]

Of course a lot more people were very openly 'racist' then, along with being sceptical about the lifestyles and food preferences of other nationalities, so not wanting someone to marry an Italian might not be anything more than being scared of something you are not sure about.

https://www.ourmigrationstory.org.uk/oms/italian-immigration-to-britain

Of course an Italian would be Catholic - would that have been a reason to not want a family member marrying one?

Father in law and his siblings were brought up Methodist. Mother in law was brought up Catholic but didn’t follow it once she was an adult. OH wasn’t brought up with any religion really other than baptism.

[Margaret in Burton]

I don’t think a middle name is important. I think he gave himself that name. On his marriage cert in 1908 he’s just Peter Harrison. Apparently he was sometimes referred to as Harry but I think that’s just a shortened version of Harrison. His army record says Peter Henry but as it’s from 1913 when he rejoined before WW1. I’m not convinced he was born with a middle name.

[Margaret in Burton]

It’s looking like one parent if not both were Italian.

Peter, when asked about his family, refused to say anything, just said that all they needed to know was that he wasn’t wanted.

To me, that says adopted, abandoned or something. Some years ago I did get Rotherham archives to search the workhouse records. They didn’t find anything and also said some were missing.

[JBee]

Maybe he was brought up by someone else and adopted their name instead of his own.

Watching countdown yesterday and the host said he was born one name but took his stepfather's name.

Doesn't look like any italian surnames but maybe the mother's.

Births Mar 1884 (>99%)
Irvine Peter Cope Rotherham 9c 653 Scan available - click to view
Births Sep 1884 (>99%)
Lidgett Peter John Rotherham 9c 613 Scan available - click to view
Births Dec 1884 (>99%)
Johnson Peter Rotherham 9c 680 Scan available - click to view
Births Dec 1885 (>99%)
Sheridan Peter Rotherham 9c 657 Scan available - click to view
Births Mar 1886 (>99%)
Kirk Peter Rotherham 9c 628 Scan available - click to view
Births Jun 1886 (>99%)
PARRY Peter Rotherham 9c 656 Scan available - click to view
Births Sep 1886 (>99%)
Lewin Peter Rotherham 9c 684

[Margaret in Burton]

Thanks Julie

Birthday is supposedly 22 July 1885

I did look at people born in Italy but living in Rotherham in 1881 and 1891. Thinking his parentage.

Nothing in 1881

1891

Bartholomaus Federici 39 Head
Rose A Federici 29 Wife
Theresa Federici 5 Daughter
Lucy Federici 1 Daughter
Mary Federici 4/12 Daughter
Joseph Federici 36 Brother
Starbori Vincenzo 26 Cousin
Pezzi Luigi 22 Visitor



Stephen Hrugone 42 Head
Betsy Hrugone 36 Wife

The wives in both households are from Yorkshire

[kiterunner]

Marg, I think you once said you had uploaded your daughters' DNA to MyHeritage? If that is the case, do they have any sizeable matches with location Italy on there? (You can use Filters - Location to find them.)

[Margaret in Burton]

Marg, I think you once said you had uploaded your daughters' DNA to MyHeritage? If that is the case, do they have any sizeable matches with location Italy on there? (You can use Filters - Location to find them.)

No I haven’t. I looked at it but didn’t go any further. I’ll look into it tomorrow. Any tips on uploading it would be appreciated

[Merry]

I did look at people born in Italy but living in Rotherham in 1881 and 1891.

I believe Italy wasn't called Italy until 1861, so some people might have used a regional name for their birthplace.

[Margaret in Burton]

I believe Italy wasn't called Italy until 1861, so some people might have used a regional name for their birthplace.

That makes it even more complicated

[Merry]

that makes it even more complicated

:d:d:d

[Merry]

These are all eliminated

All these boys have the correct date of birth on the transcription of their baptism. The entries where I've also seen the image of the PR are marked with an *

Thomas Carroll, b 22 Jul 1885, bap 05 May 1891, parents Joseph and Anne, Rotherham, St Bede EDIT Eliminated - positively identified in 1939.

Benjamin Samuel Coles, b 22 Jul 1885, bap 20 Aug 1885, parents Benjamin and Myra, Rotherham, Eastwood Methodist EDIT Eliminated - see next few posts

*Horace Duke, b 22 Jul 1885, bap 24 Aug 1890, parents George and Eliza, Wheelwright Inn, Doncaster Gate, Rotherham, publican, Rotherham, Minster EDIT Eliminated - born Sheffield 1884, appears on 1911 census Bentley with Arksey, Yorkshire where he was with his parents in 1911.

*Walter Kennedy, b 22 Jul 1885, bap 19 Aug 1885, parents William and Isabella, Rotherham, wheelsmith, Rotherham, Minster EDIT Eliminated - died 1886

*Charles Moore, b 22 Jul 1885, bap 31 Jul 1885, parents Sam and Jane, Greasbro' St, miner, Rotherham, St Michael & All Angels, Northfield EDIT Eliminated
- With parents 1891, with brother 1901, married by 1911. Appears on 1939 reg with dob 22 Jul 1885.

*Osborn Broughton Nash, b 22 Jul 1885, bap 22 Oct 1885, parents Horace Broughton and Clara Ann, Nelson St, mining engineer, Rotherham, St Stephen, Eastwood EDIT Eliminated, died 1926

Not seeing any Italians!

[Margaret in Burton]

All these boys have the correct date of birth on the transcription of their baptism. The entries where I've also seen the image of the PR are marked with an *

Thomas Carroll, b 22 Jul 1885, bap 05 May 1891, parents Joseph and Anne, Rotherham, St Bede EDIT Eliminated - positively identified in 1939.

Benjamin Samuel Coles, b 22 Jul 1885, bap 20 Aug 1885, parents Benjamin and Myra, Rotherham, Eastwood Methodist EDIT can't find any of this family anywhere!

*Horace Duke, b 22 Jul 1885, bap 24 Aug 1890, parents George and Eliza, Wheelwright Inn, Doncaster Gate, Rotherham, publican, Rotherham, Minster EDIT appears 1891 and 1901 with parents, after that I'm not sure....

*Walter Kennedy, b 22 Jul 1885, bap 19 Aug 1885, parents William and Isabella, Rotherham, wheelsmith, Rotherham, Minster EDIT Eliminated - died 1886

*Charles Moore, b 22 Jul 1885, bap 31 Jul 1885, parents Sam and Jane, Greasbro' St, miner, Rotherham, St Michael & All Angels, Northfield EDIT Found in 1891 with parents. Not with them in 1901....

*Osborn Broughton Nash, b 22 Jul 1885, bap 22 Oct 1885, parents Horace Broughton and Clara Ann, Nelson St, mining engineer, Rotherham, St Stephen, Eastwood EDIT Eliminated, died 1926


Why would he say he wasn’t wanted if he was brought up until possibly joining the army with his family.

I’m still thinking foundling

[Olde Crone]

But Merry's list doesn't mean they were brought up with their family. Sometimes women lied about being married (Merry just solved a mystery for me, the mother lived about being married when she baptised and registered the child). Sometimes parents split up and the child was dumped on reluctant relatives or into a home. "I wasn't wanted" could mean anything from a nasty step parent to complete abandonment.

Off on a flight of fantasy again - Benjamin Cole might be not Italian, but Jewish? Baptised in the Methodist church means nothing. My Jewish mother in law was baptised C of E.

OC

[Merry]

If he was a foundling he (and presumably others) wouldn't know he was Italian.

I would imagine someone might say they were not wanted if they were 'abandoned' as a baby through to being thrown out in their teens.

I note there is no birth reg for Horace Duke.

[Merry]

Benjamin Cole might be not Italian, but Jewish?

I do feel there's something dodgy about this baptism entry. Not a sign of any of them anywhere and no siblings or birth reg, marriage or death for Ben jr.

[Olde Crone]

Hmm. Myra Stokes, mother of Benjamin Cole, married JOHN Coleman in 1869. Maybe just a mistake in the baptism records?

OC

[Merry]

Oh, here he is with his widowed mother, Myra, in 1891, listed as Coley:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/6598/images/WRYRG12_3846_3849-0090?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=d59c42532b3e28533a38bd61675b9c38&pId=4852023

and the death of Myra's husband:

Deaths Sep 1887
Coley Benjamin 43 Rotherham 9c 380

Probably Mirah Nock married Benjamin Coley Q1 1864 Dudley district.

[Merry]

Finally, here is Ben's birth reg:

COLEY, BENJAMIN SAMUEL KNOCK
GRO Reference: 1885 S Quarter in ROTHERHAM Volume 09C Page 581

I've not found a marriage or death yet.

[Merry]

There were two Ben Coley births in Rotherham around the same time. Ben Sam in 1885 Q3 (above), dob 22 July 1885, son of Ben and Myra. Secondly, Ben son of William and Caroline who was registered one month earlier and had no middle name. He was born 25 Mar 1885 and baptised in April at Rotherham Minster.

In 1891 BSC was with his mother and siblings and BC was also with his parents both in Rotherham and both recorded as born in the town.

In 1901 the situation is exactly the same (Myra includes both her son's forenames in both these census records).

In 1911 and 1939 neither of these two Ben's appear; instead there's just Benjamin Reuben Coley who was born in 1884 in a different part of the country.

So, what happened to the Rotherham men (or their mother)?

There's a burial 11 Jan 1939 for a Benjamin Coley aged 52 in Rotherham. Find a Grave suggests this is the son of William and Caroline, but he is a bit young, but no middle name. His death reg is in Doncaster district. As I can't find either Ben in 1911 I thought I'd try 1921:

In 1921 there are two Ben Coleys b abt 1884/6. One is Ben Reuben who we can ignore. The other has born about 1886 in Rotherham and no middle name. He's living in Barugh, Barnsley. Really he could be either of the two I'm looking for, but I suppose it's likely he is the same man who unhelpfully died in 1939 before the Register which would have provided a date of birth!

If this Ben showing up in 1921 is married, maybe that might help....

Oh, he's single and doesn't seem to have anyone else in his household, though he isn't listed as Head. Strange? Maybe I need to try harder with the 1911 census?

[Olde Crone]

Merry

I think neither of these are who we are looking for, the difference between Cole and Coley means I no longer see a Jewish connection, lol. But need to be eliminated I agree.

On another note, I am sure I've read somewhere that the GRO holds a register of foundlings. I'll check!

OC

[Merry]

I had a look and saw trees with BSC travelling to Canada in 1906/1907 and dying there in 1948.

Here's Ben's travel record:

Ben S Coley b abt 1885 departure 14 Sep 1906 to Quebec; Montreal, Canada

He and his mother appear with all the correct details on the 1916 Canada Census of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta, so I guess that's him finally eliminated.

[Margaret in Burton]

Merry

I think neither of these are who we are looking for, the difference between Cole and Coley means I no longer see a Jewish connection, lol. But need to be eliminated I agree.

On another note, I am sure I've read somewhere that the GRO holds a register of foundlings. I'll check!

OC

Interesting OC

Thanks for that Merry

[Merry]

I found this about foundlings.

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/717337

There's a post from someone called An Olde Crone dated 2007!

[Merry]

Only two to go now! Horace Duke and Charles Moore. There are two Horace Duke's with only one birth reg, so something to sort out there. Can't do any more now......

[Olde Crone]

Oh haha! Still, I was right. I tried trawling the indexes for nameless births in Rotherham in 1885 but either it didn't work or there weren't any. Might be worth contacting the GRO?

OC

[kiterunner]

Merry

I think neither of these are who we are looking for, the difference between Cole and Coley means I no longer see a Jewish connection, lol. But need to be eliminated I agree.

On another note, I am sure I've read somewhere that the GRO holds a register of foundlings. I'll check!

OC

OC, I don't understand why you think Peter had any Jewish ethnicity? Those of his descendants who have tested on Ancestry don't have any at all, but his grandchild has 19% Italian.

[Olde Crone]

Kate, it was the combination of names and possible Italian ancestry which made me think Jewish. The Jewish DNA could have been lost generations before by a npe. But it was only a guess and I was wrong (not for the first time).

OC

[Margaret in Burton]

I found this about foundlings.

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/717337

There's a post from someone called An Olde Crone dated 2007!

Interesting

[Margaret in Burton]

OC, I don't understand why you think Peter had any Jewish ethnicity? Those of his descendants who have tested on Ancestry don't have any at all, but his grandchild has 19% Italian.

I have messaged her Kate. She’s logged in to Ancestry today but hasn’t read my message. I’m expecting to be ignored. As I said, we don’t really get on.

[Merry]

Horace Duke

There's only one birth reg:

DUKE, HORACE KIRKBY
GRO Reference: 1884 M Quarter in ROTHERHAM Volume 09C Page 665

but the child I want to eliminate was said to have been born the following year in July.

The above birth is probably the son of William Duke and Elizabeth nee Kirkby m Q4 1866 Sheffield. He was born 18 Feb 1884 and bap 20 Aug 1884 at St Thomas, Kimberworth, Rotherham.

The one I want to eliminate is the son of George Duke and Eliza. Not sure of her maiden name yet....

[Merry]

I've now discovered that Horace, son of Eliza and George was actually born in Sheffield not Rotherham and he was registered one year earlier than the date recorded on his baptism. I am pretty sure this is correct as his mmn (Swinton) matches with the registerations for his siblings. He is also on the 1911 census in Bentley with Arksey, Yorkshire which is where he was with his parents in 1901. So..... another eliminated!

(I'm expecting all these people will be eliminated as no Italian connection, but as there's only one to go I may as well finish!)

[Merry]

Charles Moore

In 1891 Charles is with his parents in Hemsworth:

Sam 41 coal miner b Leic Gilmorton
Jane 42 b Yorks Haugh
Samuel A 20 b Yorks Greasborough
Joseph15 b Yorks Greasborough
Mary A 13 b Yorks Rotherham
George 11 b Yorks Greasborough
Ellen 9 b Yorks Greasborough
Henry 8 b Yorks Rotherham
Charles 5 b Yorks Greasborough
Fred 4 b Yorks Greasborough
Louisa 2 b Yorks Hemsworth

In 1901 he isn't with his parents, but I think he is a boarder in the household of his older brother, Joseph (now 26). Both of them say b Rotherham and are living in Hemsworth where they were in 1891.

In 1911 Charles is still in Hemsworth, and still says b Rotherham.

I with I'd looked at the 1939 register first. That has him with dob 22 Jul 1885. So, eliminated!

[Margaret in Burton]

Thanks for looking Merry

[Merry]

There are 683 birth registrations in Rotherham 1885 Q3. If half are girls that's about 350 births for boys to eliminate!! lol And that's if Peter was born there and around July 1885 and was registered. :D

[kiterunner]

There are 683 birth registrations in Rotherham 1885 Q3. If half are girls that's about 350 births for boys to eliminate!! lol And that's if Peter was born there and around July 1885 and was registered. :D

I went through, didn't spot any Italian-looking names, and picked out those with no MMN on the GRO site (it seemed like a place to start!) and have found infant deaths or 1911 census entries for all of those except:
Harry Hartley
Fred Armitage Jennings
Arthur Kaye or Raye
Charles William Shaw
Joseph Ward.

Though there is another Joseph Ward born in Rotherham in 1886 so I'm not sure which of them is on various censuses.

[Merry]

I looked at as many Rotherham Italians as I could find on the censuses to see if any had sons the right age (no). Also checked birth regs and used the Italian surnames as mmn on FMP in case a married sister/dau etc had a baby, but no joy with that either.

[Margaret in Burton]

It’s a needle in a haystack.

[Merry]

Fred Armitage Jennings' parents married in 1886 (Fred Wyndham Armitage and Mary Jennings). FWA died before 1901 and Fred jr and the rest of the family are living with his paternal grandmother after that. Here he is in 1911:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2352/images/rg14_26291_0217_03?pId=38493383

so, eliminated.

[Merry]

It’s a needle in a haystack.

Yes I agree.

The trouble is, it's most likely one of the Italian men in the area fathered a child with a British woman but there's nothing in the records to show this. If she was married she probably passed it off as her husband's child or believed it to be her husband's child. I can imagine the temptation to call the baby Mario or whatever would soon be put aside to avoid any scandal, unfortunately.

Perhaps Peter was not wanted because it came out that his mother's husband was not the father? This could have happened at any point in his childhood.

[Olde Crone]

I tend to think he was illegitimate - either at birth, as it were, or later in childhood because it became known he wasn't a child of the marriage. I feel this because of his statement "I wasn't wanted, that's all you need to know". Illegitimacy was so shameful back then, most people tried to hide it. I have a branch of a family who were farmed out to various relatives when their mother died. They weren't wanted either, but they were all at great pains to tell you about it and carried great resentment all their lives, so I feel the secrecy on PHH's part was shame and concealment.

Neighbours often know the truth of things and I'd bet the "little Italian" remarks were based on knowledge, not just random insults, lol.

Not sure how any of that will help though.

OC

[kiterunner]

From my post #52 we can rule out Harry Hartley - his mother married Septimus Brookes and he is down as Harry Brookes on the 1911 census.

[kiterunner]

Also I have found a likely Charles W Shaw on the 1939 census but he is not with his wife on the 1921 census to see birthplace and check for sure. But anyway, Charles William Shaw was baptised on the 14th Jul 1885 so his birthdate is too early.

[Merry]

So Joseph Ward and Arthur Kaye or Raye to go?

[kiterunner]

That's right. I think Joseph Ward is the one in Rotherham workhouse in 1891 with (presumably) mother Charlott Ward age 29, "imbecile". (Charlott is the imbecile, not Joseph). Charlott's birthplace is down as Yorks Swinton, but there is a Charlotte Ward age 18, "imbecile", a domestic servant, in Swinton on the 1881 census which must be her. Birthplace is somewhere in Staffordshire. I can't figure out what happened to her. There is a possible Joseph Ward age 17 in Rotherham on the 1901 census, pony driver below ground, born Rotherham.

[kiterunner]

There is a Joseph Ward who marries a Sarah Mitchell, but he is only 24 on the 1911 census and on their marriage record he is Joseph Henry Ward, son of Joseph. Then on the 1921 census apparently he is 36 and there is a Joseph Henry Ward death in 1935 (Chesterfield district which fits with where they were in 1921) age 49. So his age on those later records fits with him being born about 1885 and I can't find another birth record - the Joseph Ward born 1886 seems to be the son of a Richard Ward. So I'm not sure whether we can rule Joseph Ward out, but maybe.

[Margaret in Burton]

You two amaze me. I don’t know how you do it

[Merry]

I can't figure out what happened to Charlotte Ward.

Have you tried initials?

[Merry]

I'm not sure whether we can rule Joseph Ward out, but maybe.

I'd say between maybe and probably!

[Merry]

re Arthur Kaye/Raye, there's a marriage for a Harriet Kaye to George Wilkinson before 1891 and I found the couple in 1891 but no children in their household. There is a death for an Arthur Wilkinson but he's a bit old (2 in 1886) and there are loads of births for Arthur Wilkinson so the death is prob for one of those.

So, maybe Harriet isn't his mother.

Lol after all that, he's probably Arthur Wray aged 5 b Greasborough, great grandson of Eliza Oxley aged 68. I've only looked for him in 1891 so far. There is a birth reg in that name, but that boy would only be aged 3 (Q3 1887). The 3-year-old is on the census too, at Maltby (in Rotherham district).

[Merry]

So, at the moment I only have Arthur Wray in 1891 and then in prison for a minor offence in 1903. Released 30th August. Of course Peter joined the army in Dec 1903..........

[Merry]

Arthur Wray 1891:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/6079065:6598?tid=&pid=&queryId=7b3253a5922ab82dd5065006f93d62ad&_phsrc=psY32876&_phstart=successSource

and offence:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/92606:5085?tid=&pid=&queryId=7b3253a5922ab82dd5065006f93d62ad&_phsrc=psY32877&_phstart=successSource

(last entry on the page)

Still not found him in 1901 yet. Obviously he must be alive then! I would like to find him then before looking after 1903.

[Merry]

Still not found anything more.

This Arthur Wray:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/61596/images/tna_r39_2814_2814e_010?backlabel=ReturnSearchResul ts&queryId=3881b85ad47ae3d329eb7ab91ef7fa5b&pId=5604319

is not the person we are looking for as he says he was born in Stockton on Tees in 1921. There is a birth reg to fit with that in Q3 1885.

[Merry]

Oooh, The likely mother of the mysterious Arthur Wray is probably Eliza Ann Wray, sibling of William Wray who is in the 1891 household I posted earlier.

Eliza Ann was listed as 13 in 1881 and she seems to have married in Dec 1886 in Greasborough to Alfred Linley (bride aged 18 groom 24). Interestingly, her father's name was Peter!

Anyway, Arthur Wray is Arthur Linley aged 15 in 1901. He isn't with his parents in 1911 and I can't find him then, but he is on the 1921 census in Pontefract. He seems to have died there later in 1921.

So, that's him eliminated!

[kiterunner]

Thanks. Okay, back to the drawing board...

[maggie_4_7]

No I haven’t. I looked at it but didn’t go any further. I’ll look into it tomorrow. Any tips on uploading it would be appreciated

It's worth doing. I did it, I can't remember how you upload it I will have to go and refresh my memory. Obviously you download a file from Ancestry first and I can't even remember how to do that ;(

Found the instructions:

https://support.ancestry.co.uk/s/article/Downloading-DNA-Data

[Margaret in Burton]

Thanks Merry for your hard work

[Margaret in Burton]

It's worth doing. I did it, I can't remember how you upload it I will have to go and refresh my memory. Obviously you download a file from Ancestry first and I can't even remember how to do that ;(

Found the instructions:

https://support.ancestry.co.uk/s/article/Downloading-DNA-Data

I’ll look into that later. Thanks Maggie

[Merry]

Thanks Merry for your hard work

lol No worries Marg! I agree with Kate's last comment :D

Maybe we should be doing the forward trees for all the Rotherham Italians, trace living descendants and plead with them to do a DNA test?!

[maggie_4_7]

I’ll look into that later. Thanks Maggie

Link, but its on my login I think it should work under your log on:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/dna/settings/9216240C-0EA6-4209-8099-5567ACAF6AB7

I will look at MyHeritage later.

I have to say I have followed this thread and had a think about the DNA, you have in the Ethnicity Estimate thread posted the DNA details of your Ds, and it put me in mind of one of my shared matches and they come from, up until the mid 19c Mariners.

I know it frustrates you but I find your PHH conundrum fascinating.

[Mary from Italy]

I found this one; don't know if it's worth checking out:

FreeBMD has:

Births Sep 1885
Cooper Male / Rotherham / 9c 574

GRO has:

COOPER, - / - /
GRO Reference: 1885 S Quarter in ROTHERHAM Volume 09C Page 574

So no first name and no MMN; possibly adopted?

I've looked at the GRO page, and there are no handwritten entries on it.

[Margaret in Burton]

I found this one; don't know if it's worth checking out:

FreeBMD has:

Births Sep 1885
Cooper Male / Rotherham / 9c 574

GRO has:

COOPER, - / - /
GRO Reference: 1885 S Quarter in ROTHERHAM Volume 09C Page 574

So no first name and no MMN; possibly adopted?

I've looked at the GRO page, and there are no handwritten entries on it.


Mary. Interesting. Not sure where to go with it though

[Olde Crone]

I think that is probably the same male Cooper who died same quarter, age 0.

OC

[Mary from Italy]

Oh, I missed that, sorry. Pity.

[kiterunner]

As I said before, I already went through and picked out all the boys born in Rotherham in that quarter with no MMN on the GRO site and the ones I posted up were the only ones I hadn't already eliminated.

[Mary from Italy]

Oh sorry, I'd missed that, too.

I've had a quick look for births with the name Pietro or Piero (Italian equivalent of Peter), but there's nothing in Rotherham, and nothing else jumps out so far.

[Merry]

So, is the situation now that if Peter was born in July 1885 and if he was born in Rotherham, then he was either registered as a legitimate child of a couple (be the couple real or imaginary) or he wasn't registered within the legal time frame or at all?

I did look at FMP for any babies anywhere in the country with mmn recorded as 'Unknown'. In the whole of 1885 there were 21 matches (I don't know how complete FMP's transcriptions of mmn are though). None of these were in Yorkshire. 13 of them were girls. 7 of the other 8 are (it was quicker to copy/paste from the GRO!):

MORRIS, WILLIAM HENRY UNKNOWN
GRO Reference: 1885 S Quarter in LANCASTER Volume 08E Page 741

UNKNOWN, FREDERICK GEORGE AINSWORTH UNKNOWN
GRO Reference: 1885 S Quarter in BIRKENHEAD Volume 08A Page 479

UNKNOWN, FRIDAY COPELAND UNKNOWN
GRO Reference: 1885 M Quarter in CAMBERWELL Volume 01D Page 933

UNKNOWN, GEORGE CLEGG UNKNOWN
GRO Reference: 1885 D Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 252 Occasional Copy: B

UNKNOWN, - UNKNOWN
GRO Reference: 1885 D Quarter in DUDLEY Volume 06C Page 48

UNKNOWN, SAMUEL PHILIP UNKNOWN
GRO Reference: 1885 S Quarter in PRESTWICH Volume 08D Page 313

UNKNOWN, VICTOR LANE UNKNOWN
GRO Reference: 1885 J Quarter in POPLAR Volume 01C Page 553

This one appears as Unknown Unknown on FMP and in both formats on FreeBMD (I'm sure it's the same baby as there are 11 names recorded for page 651 where the max number would normally be 10):

UNKNOWN, PHILIP JAMES NETHERHALL UNKNOWN
GRO Reference: 1885 J Quarter in HAMPSTEAD Volume 01A Page 651

This last one has mmn - rather than Unknown on FMP:

UNKNOWN, - UNKNOWN
GRO Reference: 1885 J Quarter in SOUTHAMPTON Volume 02C Page 32

I've not looked to see if I can find any of the above anywhere else yet. This was more about getting a sense of how many births were potentially foundlings in a given year.

[Margaret in Burton]

I admire your tenacity. I honestly don’t think we will ever get to the end of this.

[Phoenix]

I suppose it could equally be that he was legitimate (or described as such at birth) and his mother then took up with another man who resented him?
Best Mate had a fair few City ancestors who pretended they were married or changed names they disliked.

[maggie_4_7]

MyHeritage DNA Upload.

https://www.myheritage.com/help-center/en/article/how-can-i-upload-a-dna-file-to-myheritage

[Margaret in Burton]

He made up a name for his father on his marriage certificate. Well, I assume he made it up. It says, Thomas Harrison deceased.

[Olde Crone]

Merry

This might be William Henry Morris -

William Henry Morris born 24 July, 1885 Union Workhouse, baptised 4 August Christ Church Lancaster, son of William Henry Morris labourer and Emma.

OC

Edit - not immediately seeing a marriage for WHM to an Emma.

[Anstey Nomad]

I've just been through his army record. So he enlisted in the KOYLIs in December 1903 at Castleford, which was then in the West Riding, and as part of that process he had a medical examination at Pontefract, during which he gave his place of birth as Ashby de la Zouch.

Also, although he joined a Yorkshire Regiment, he gave his home address as 139 Swadlincote Road, Woodville. I don't have FMP, but if PHH was living there in 1903, who was living there in 1901? Would an address search help at all?

Yours, over-invested and probably not being much help.

[kiterunner]

I've just been through his army record. So he enlisted in the KOYLIs in December 1903 at Castleford, which was then in the West Riding, and as part of that process he had a medical examination at Pontefract, during which he gave his place of birth as Ashby de la Zouch.

Also, although he joined a Yorkshire Regiment, he gave his home address as 139 Swadlincote Road, Woodville. I don't have FMP, but if PHH was living there in 1903, who was living there in 1901? Would an address search help at all?

Yours, over-invested and probably not being much help.

Isn't that his address in WW1, rather then his address in 1903?

[Margaret in Burton]

I've just been through his army record. So he enlisted in the KOYLIs in December 1903 at Castleford, which was then in the West Riding, and as part of that process he had a medical examination at Pontefract, during which he gave his place of birth as Ashby de la Zouch.

Also, although he joined a Yorkshire Regiment, he gave his home address as 139 Swadlincote Road, Woodville. I don't have FMP, but if PHH was living there in 1903, who was living there in 1901? Would an address search help at all?

Yours, over-invested and probably not being much help.

He wasn’t. Him and Lily didn’t didn’t get married until 1908 in Ashby de la Zouch and then they lived in Ashby de la Zouch. They moved to Woodville in 1913 to take over a pub, then he was called up as a reservist. Lily refused to take on the pub alone as she had three young children.

That army record is from 1913

I originally got the army record well before it was on Ancestry. The army told me it had been ‘weeded’ and didn’t contain a full record

I was told he was walking from Yorkshire to London after he was discharged from the army. Stopped in Ashby, met Lily and didn’t go any further.

[Margaret in Burton]

My late husbands cousin who has also submitted her DNA has read my message two days ago but not responded. I didn’t think she would. We’ve never really got on.

[Margaret in Burton]

I’ve had a reply



Hi Margaret, this is ( name withheld) , ( name withheld) daughter. I'm the one who set all this up for my mum. Ancestry gave suggestions for who my mums grandad was, based on birth certificates etc. if it's wrong, i'll sit down with my mum when I get time and go over it all :) I can see they all have Italian DNA, which yes, proves mums grandfather had Italian parents, can definitely see that in their colouring. Sad that their grandfather said he wasn't wanted. Thanks for information.


I have replied explaining my and others here’s research.

[Phoenix]

Lovely news, Marg. Perhaps this represents the tiniest chink in the wall?

[Anstey Nomad]

It's a slow afternoon here.

Now that Ancestry divides DNA results by parent, is it possible to look at the results the girls have on the Harrison side and see if any Italian names are coming up in the matches' trees in, say, the mid nineteenth century, to see if there is a pattern?

I think that's pretty much how Kite and I identified my putative great grandfather.

[Anstey Nomad]

Looking at Italian migration in the nineteenth century, there was more than you might think and there was a definite community of cutlers at West Bar in Sheffield which, if my memory serves me right, is the next stop on the train from Rotherham. There were also itinerant musicians and other trades.

We could potentially be looking for someone who was not here very long, or even not in Yorkshire very long, just long enough to father a child which was then either passed off as someone else's until his looks gave him away, or known as 'the Italian's child' and set apart because of this.

The DNA has to hold the key. It has to.

[Margaret in Burton]

My late husbands first cousin has 19% Italian. 18% Northern Italy and 1% southern so we are looking at northern Italy really. She knows nothing. Her daughter replied to me and she asked her mum who wasn’t even aware of him be
referred to as a little Italian or the fact he said he wasn’t wanted, which actually surprises me as the person who told me that he said he wasn’t wanted was her and OH’s mutual uncle who she spent a lot of time with especially in his final years.


No, not any matches with Italian names. All matches on OH’s side seem to be from his grandmother not grandfather.

[Margaret in Burton]

My thoughts are that assuming Peter Henry was an only child of that parentage then matches for my daughters will be looking for descendants of their 2x great grandparents or even 3 times. So am I right in thinking at least 3rd or 4th cousins?

[kiterunner]

Sounds about right, Marg.

[Margaret in Burton]

Sounds about right, Marg.

Thanks Kate

[Mary from Italy]

Not all that many Italians have done DNA tests, unfortunately.

[Margaret in Burton]

Not all that many Italians have done DNA tests, unfortunately.

Yes I’ve been told that

[Merry]

There are also a small handful of Italian men, married and unmarried, living in and around Rotherham in 1881/91 who could have had a legitimate family in the UK and living descendants here, so don't give up yet!

[Anstey Nomad]

Ancestry search is not playing ball for me in 1881. It's giving me a list of random people across Yorkshire who are mostly British Subjects who happen to have been born in Italy.

it's treating me better in 1891 where I have found the Federicci household, relatively recently moved from Sheffield.

[Margaret in Burton]

It’s as though Peter just didn’t exist until 1903 when he joined the army. I’m sure there’s a name change involved

[maggie_4_7]

It could be his mother that was Italian.

[Anstey Nomad]

Could be, but as so often happens with early waves of emigration, there seemed to be many more Italian men in Yorkshire than women.

I've always believed that he changed his name when he joined the army, so he could not be traced by whoever he left behind, but who knows?

Anyone up for a seance?

[Margaret in Burton]

Well, he wouldn’t tell you anything if you could make contact. :)
Refused to reveal any of his history when asked when he was dying. Did he even tell the truth about Rotherham on the 1911 and 1921 census? Ok he joined the KOYLI’s so a Yorkshire regiment but Yorkshire is a big county

[Merry]

When he joined the army I'm sure he wasn't thinking about his descendants trying to find historic records about him. Surely it must have been just that he didn't want to to be associated with the name he had before, or the people the name was linked to.

Marg, did he ever have a passport or have any issue with getting his old age pension?

[Olde Crone]

Merry

I see where you are going with that but I think if someone could not produce a birth certificate for a pension then they had to prove they had been known by their current name for x years, which would of course be held out by employment history and/or a reference from someone saying they'd known them for years. I believe it was not uncommon for people to appear not to be registered in the early years of the state pension., usually because they didn't know they were illegitimate as far as I can see.

OC

[Margaret in Burton]

When he joined the army I'm sure he wasn't thinking about his descendants trying to find historic records about him. Surely it must have been just that he didn't want to to be associated with the name he had before, or the people the name was linked to.

Marg, did he ever have a passport or have any issue with getting his old age pension?

Not that I know of.

[Margaret in Burton]

I was told he was invalided from working in the pit in South Derbyshire when he was crushed. His cause of death was Coronary artery decease and Emphysema. I assume pit related.

[Merry]

Marg, Every now and again I look for PHH again. When I find someone to investigate, I usually look here to see if we've done it before.

Today I was looking at this chap:

http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showthread.php?t=8238&highlight=peter+harris+rouley

Do you have a master list of people we've looked at? That thread seems to fizzle out without any conclusions. Do you know if we ever found anything more about that Peter?

[Margaret in Burton]

Marg, Every now and again I look for PHH again. When I find someone to investigate, I usually look here to see if we've done it before.

Today I was looking at this chap:

http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showthread.php?t=8238&highlight=peter+harris+rouley

Do you have a master list of people we've looked at? That thread seems to fizzle out without any conclusions. Do you know if we ever found anything more about that Peter?

Blimey, that’s a long time ago. I don’t have a list of people unfortunately and I don’t remember anything about that chap

[Merry]

Ok lol It may be easier to find more now we have mmm on the GRO index.

[Phoenix]

I'm putting comments on that other thread, to save confusion :rolleyes:

[Margaret in Burton]

I'm putting comments on that other thread, to save confusion :rolleyes:

I’ve added to that but I’ll put it on here too. John Harris and Eliza Holyoake, the parents of Peter, married in 1877 in Rotherham.

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=BMD%2FM%2F1877%2F4%2FAZ%2F000138%2F0 99

[Margaret in Burton]

Peter Harris’ birth was registered in the March qtr of 1886 in Dudley. PHH’s supposed birthday was July 1885

[JBee]

I have a great uncle who changed his Irish name from McQuade (too Irish) to Wade when he joined the Army in 1890's.

So perhaps it was more common to hide their roots just to fit in.

[Margaret in Burton]

Forget Peter Harris. I’ve found him in 1921 in Rawmarsh

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBC%2F1921%2FRG15%2F23247%2F0425&parentid=GBC%2F1921%2FRG15%2F23247%2F0425%2F01

[Kit]

I've just read all 120 posts in the hopes you had found him. I am so disappointed, as I'm sure you are too.

[Margaret in Burton]

I've just read all 120 posts in the hopes you had found him. I am so disappointed, as I'm sure you are too.

Yes

[Anstey Nomad]

But we're getting closer in baby steps.

It seems there were many more Italians than most of us thought in England in the late 19th century and most of them in Daughter #2's matches came from a relatively small area in northern Italy, basically on the road between Pistoia and Lucca.

Marg, I think you should send her there and see if anyone stops her in the street.

[Margaret in Burton]

But we're getting closer in baby steps.

It seems there were many more Italians than most of us thought in England in the late 19th century and most of them in Daughter #2's matches came from a relatively small area in northern Italy, basically on the road between Pistoia and Lucca.

Marg, I think you should send her there and see if anyone stops her in the street.

Very funny

[Janet]

That's no more than 30 to 50 miles from Florence, then. Traveling stone carver? Whatever. But potentially very exciting, I'd say!

I actually think AN's suggestion is very interesting, Marg. :)

Several months after my mother's death, when curiosity struck and I had finally looked properly at the rather neglected family oil portrait of some gentleman unknown to me, I realized with a shock in my bleary state one morning after a bad night's sleep as I gazed at the mirror, toothbrush in hand, that I looked more or less just like him! He turned out to be my 3xg grandfather, my MFFFF. I've still not got his parents for sure. Perhaps I should go to Colne and see if anyone stops me in the street. :d

[ElizabethHerts]

But we're getting closer in baby steps.

It seems there were many more Italians than most of us thought in England in the late 19th century and most of them in Daughter #2's matches came from a relatively small area in northern Italy, basically on the road between Pistoia and Lucca.

Marg, I think you should send her there and see if anyone stops her in the street.

Lucca is absolutely beautiful. OH and I have visited several times. A lovely part of Italy.

[Kit]

Marg, I think you should send her there and see if anyone stops her in the street.

Worth a try and if not, then a nice holiday.

I'd also be searching local museums and cemeteries to see if anything interesting pops up.

[Anstey Nomad]

Well, I'm not in Tuscany, sadly. I'm in my local Library playing with FMP and following up another genius idea that I had this morning, which has of course, like all my others, come to nothing.

I need to go back to the DNA in more detail. However, the problem with a lot of the 'Italian' matches is that they are actually Americans who know only that their forebears came from Italy. A significant proportion of the others have cobbled a tree together but only go back two or three generations, which is generally post immigration.

My theory remains that PHH was fathered illegitimately by a transient Italian.

That makes resolving this much more problematical, but it's not time to give up yet.

[Margaret in Burton]

Well, I'm not in Tuscany, sadly. I'm in my local Library playing with FMP and following up another genius idea that I had this morning, which has of course, like all my others, come to nothing.

I need to go back to the DNA in more detail. However, the problem with a lot of the 'Italian' matches is that they are actually Americans who know only that their forebears came from Italy. A significant proportion of the others have cobbled a tree together but only go back two or three generations, which is generally post immigration.

My theory remains that PHH was fathered illegitimately by a transient Italian.

That makes resolving this much more problematical, but it's not time to give up yet.

Thanks for looking AN. As PHH was my daughter great grandfather I assume that if he was an only child we are looking for aunts and uncles descendants. Probably 4th or 5th cousin matches or even further back

[Anstey Nomad]

So, another day, another approach.

The descendants of the Italian community in Sheffield (10 miles from Rotherham) have created a website, which contains lists of names. I am currently going through the DNA matches looking for those names. I have a number of hits so far, some of which look better than others. I will of course report back when I have finished.

I am also going to ask one of my Italian acquaintances if she knows anyone who knows about surname distribution.

[Mary from Italy]

Do you mean in the UK? This is the Italian surname distribution site, but it's based on the current phone book:

https://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cognomi-italiani

[Anstey Nomad]

Mille grazia!

[Merry]

I've just read back part of this thread but not all of it, so apologies if this has been said before (I would think most things have been said before!) - I got to the part where it was suggested, because of the DNA info, his father was probably Italian and could the fact that Italians would generally be Catholic be an issue? Wouldn't it be more likely that a Catholic family might not want one of their offspring in a relationship with a non-Catholic than the other way round? So might it be that his mother was the (Catholic) Italian and her family refused to accept the relationship/child?

[Mary from Italy]

Mille grazia!

There are quite a lot of Italian records online now, so if you want to post the names of the towns involved, I can have a look to see what's available.