Second marriage? First wife not dead?

[Sue from Southend]

I'm going round in circles and need someone with a clear head!

James and Betsey Butcher, this is them in 1851
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=1&gsfn=james+&gsln=butcher&sx=&f1=Surrey&f2=lambeth&f4=&f18=&f12__n=&rg_81004011__date=1807&rs_81004011__date=0&f27=&f14=&f15=&_8000C002=&_80008002=&_80018002=&f7=&f8=&f9=&gskw=&prox=1&db=uki1851&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=0&h=16531281&recoff=1+2+13+14

and again in in 1861
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=1&gsfn=james+&gsln=butcher&sx=&f1=Surrey&f2=lambeth&f4=&f18=&f12__n=&rg_81004011__date=1807&rs_81004011__date=0&f27=england+&f14=berkshire&f15=&_8000C002=&_80008002=&_80018002=&f7=&f8=&f9=&gskw=&prox=1&db=uki1861&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=0&h=6393919&recoff=1+2

I have a death certificate for Betsey (in the name Betsey, not Elizabeth) Waterloo Rd, wife of James Butcher, Beer Retailer. The informant was her son in law, Nov 1863.

However, while looking for a marriage for one their sons I've found this
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1623&iid=31280_198070-00099&fn=James&ln=Butcher&st=d&ssrc=&pid=3503770 :eek:

I have James parents as James and Sarah and assuming I've the right man James snr was a "Coach Bookee" so something to do with coaches!
I've hunted for another James with Mary Ann in 1861, also looked for Mary Ann Gundry in 1851 with little success ( although there is a Mary Ann Gundry in Thatcham but I'm trying not to jump to conclusions!) Can anyone spot something I've missed or ask questions that I've not thought of?;(

[Merry]

Can anyone spot something I've missed

Erm, no!! Looks like the same bloke to me :rolleyes:

[Sue from Southend]

So if we assume he married bigamously, there should be a Mary Ann Butcher in 1861 on her own or a death as he appears to be with Betsey in 1861? In 1871 He's living with another "wife" Fannie, although I can't find a marriage (Fannie isn't another name for Mary Ann is it???)http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=1&gsfn=james&gsln=+butcher&sx=&f1=Surrey&f2=southwark&f4=&f18__n=&f12__n=&rg_81004011__date=1807&rs_81004011__date=0&f27=england&f14=berkshire&f15=&_8000C002=&_80008002=&_80018002=&f7=&f8=&f9=&gskw=&prox=1&db=uki1871&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=5&h=5428025&recoff=1+2

[maggie_4_7]

No Fanny/Fannie is usually another name for Frances. Mary Ann might be Polly but I've never known Fanny.

It certainly looks like the same man.

He got about a bit didn't he puts me in mind of my father :d

Edit to say: Of course Fanny can be a name in its own right too just like Polly.

[Merry]

I don't think Fanny can be Mary Ann as in 1871 there's also Emily Handry or Hendry who is Fanny's daughter and Ann Thomas who would appear to be Fanny's sister and is unmarried, so Fanny's father should be Mr Thomas and not Mr Gundry (though I know things don't always pan out the way we expect!)

[Sue from Southend]

I didn't really think that Mary Ann/ Fannie were the same person but I've never been able to find a definite for Fannie before or after 1871! But that's another story!

Assuming I've got the right man James died in 1885 and left what money he had to a friend, John Olley, who was also present at his death. There was no mention of any of his children or their families even though James had been living with his daughter in 1881. A serious family falling out perhaps - I'm jumping to conclusions again! Slaps own wrist!

[garstonite]

don`t know if this is of any use but there are only 2 marriages of a James Butcher to a Fanny ????..between 1861 and 1871
james Butcher dec qtr 1868 to a Fanny Emma Beckford or Susan Potter(Romford)
James Butcher sep qtr 1869 to a Fanny Hannah Mitchell or a Anna Elizabeth Ulington (Medway , Kent)
allan:)

[Sue from Southend]

Apologies for not responding earlier Allan - I've had a very busy week! Thanks for looking at the Fanny/ie(!) problem for me, I think I've explored every Fanny, Fannie and Frances married to a James Butcher possible and am not happy with any of them! Although someone else researching James has claimed a marriage to Frances Ranger (jun 1864, St Saviour) but the LMA Records have proved that to be wrong.

I'm still going over and over this dodgy marriage to Mary Gundry! Assuming that it IS him why would he give the address (Waterloo Rd) where his first wife was still living? :confused:
I also considered that it was his son James, (my 2xgt grandfather) but he married in 1857 and states that he was a bachelor and that his father was a licensed victualler...
I don't think I'll ever know what was going on but it's really going to bug me:(:d

[maggie_4_7]

Could Betsey actually be Mary Ann Gundry? Or have you a marriage for James and Betsey I can't remember. Maybe they got married after having the children.

Maybe Betsey was a nick name!

[Sue from Southend]

They were married in 1827, Maggie! And she's a Betsey from marriage to death.....

[maggie_4_7]

They were married in 1827, Maggie! And she's a Betsey from marriage to death.....

Okay.

If you look at the cert though it give Waterloo Rd for both Mary and James.

[Sue from Southend]

Yep! Weird isn't it?

[maggie_4_7]

Yep! Weird isn't it?

errrm it is a different church to Betsey's marriage to James isn't it!

:)

[Sue from Southend]

Yeeees, I might be being thick but I'm not following you Maggie :o

[maggie_4_7]

Yeeees, I might be being thick but I'm not following you Maggie :o

No I haven't got any ideas. I am just thinking how James could commit bigamy so easily so close to home.

Different church then!

Edit to say: You've DEFINITELY got the right death for Betsey?

[Sue from Southend]

Edit to say: You've DEFINITELY got the right death for Betsey?

I've always been confidentthat I had - until this minute!

Betsey Butcher of Waterloo Rd, Wife of James Butcher, Beer Retailer. Informant their son in law.

There is one anomaly with Betsey that has "bothered" me for years but may not have a bearing on this problem - in 1841 she claims to be born "out of County" but in '51 and '61 she is born Lambeth, Surrey. Not a big thing I know, especially in the 1841 but although she and James state born out of County they clearly claim correcly that the children were born in County so they understood the question! Her dob fluctuates quite wildly too 1841 = 1811, 1851= 1812 and 1861= 1821. On her death cert it's back to 1812 but I always put this down to vanity or just someone else giving the wrong information (1812 would also be odd as she married in 1827 - making her 15 at marriage...!). However this has no bearing at all on James 2nd marriage unless Betsey b out of County dies between 1841 and 51 - and James marries Mary Ann of the County and bizarrely keeps calling her Betsey!!

[Olde Crone]

This will probably hinder rather than help you, but I was driven completely insane by my relative Jonathan Green who married a Mary in 1750 (say). Mary was still having children 49 years later....this COULD not be! I checked and checked, finally found Monumental Inscriptions and all was revealed:

Jonathan Green married Mary and they had a few children. She died.
JOHN Green married Martha and they had more children. Martha died.
Johnathan Green married MARY and they had more children.

It was definitely only one man and definitely three wives, as everyone was spread between four graves and when I took the deaths in turn, I could see what had happened!

So...could your James have married TWO Betsys instead of just one? And there is definitely no other James?

OC

[Sue from Southend]

OC - I've looked for another Betsey/Elizabeth marriage and a death for the "first" one (not recently I must admit) and found nothing (doesn't mean it doesn't exist of course!) the scenario would have to be something like this (to keep it legal, lol) James marries Betsey/Elizabeth Wickham of Surrey or ?, she dies 1851 - 1853, James marries Mary Ann Gundry of ? 1854, she dies before 1861 so that James has time to marry another Betsey/Elizabeth by the 1861 census...
Unfortunately there is no record of any other children apart from those born to Betsey before 1841. The youngest was born in 1838 and Betsey's maiden name was confirmed as Wickham.
Off to look again for another Betsy marriage....

[maggie_4_7]

But there is still the question who is Fannie on the census with him in 1871!!!

[Sue from Southend]

But there is still the question who is Fannie on the census with him in 1871!!!

Thanks for that Maggie:rolleyes:

I've just found another James Butcher, Beer Shop Keeper marrying in 1853!

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1623&iid=31280_196956-00550&fn=James&ln=Butcher&st=d&ssrc=&pid=2752332

However they're in Bermondsey (not that far I know) and I can't yet find a death for the wife Susannah enabling him to marry Mary Gundry 18mths later. I guess that if it is him he may have had a "beer shop" in Waterloo Rd for a few years between census... He's not a relative that I know of nor are the witnesses names fitting in with my tree...

[maggie_4_7]

The father of James Butcher in that one has the same name and profession as the other one. James Butcher - Coachman!

Whats the chances that there's two or even three Beer sellers in that area with the name James Butcher and a father named James Butcher - Coachman and two of them on second marriages citing widower.

Edit to say: Long Lane and Weston Street isn't that far away from Waterloo Road at all.

[Sue from Southend]

I tried comparing the two signatures - they're pretty similar but I don't think it's conclusive.
My James father was, according to the Licence for his 2nd marriage, a "Coach Bookee" (whatever that might be!) so similar. Is it different enough to write the whole of this thread off as a wild goose chase? I think I'd need to find a death for Susannah Butcher at least, before I did that....!

[maggie_4_7]

Its just gets more curious. Wish they had place of birth on marriage certs :)

Either there's two or three of them or your chap is a serial bigamist :)

I just had a quick search for Susannah on the 1861 and can't find her but I didn't look very hard I must say.

[Sue from Southend]

Bingo!

I've found a burial for Susanna Butcher, 6 Sept 1854 - it's definitely her as the Curate wrote her maiden name first and then corrected it!
So if the marriage to Mary Ann Gundry that has caused all this grief was to THIS James Butcher he didn't waste much time as that marriage was on 28 Dec 1854!

Edit - but that still doesn't explain the Waterloo Rd address....

[maggie_4_7]

Waterloo Road is a very long road there must be a few pubs along it. I know its a long shot but its definitely only a few main roads away from Long Lane and Weston Street.

What a coincidence if there were two James Butchers floating about, same profession, same father's name and profession, but people do say life is full of coincidences.

[Sue from Southend]

I'll try and search some directories tomorrow - see if I can find reference to 2 pubs in Waterloo Rd run by James Butcher. It's a bit of a long shot though as I'm fairly certain my one is the only one there by 1861 so it's a very narrow time frame!
I'm off for tonight, thanks for your help Maggie and to OC too who made me think differently!

[Olde Crone]

Hair spllitting time, but licenced victualler and beer house keeper are two different things. My 2 X GGF was a beer house keeper, but he was never a licensed victualler.

Also, you wouldn't believe just how many parallel families I have in my tree, fathers and sons with the same names, who have cousins with fathers and sons the same name and virtually the same age, so I don't find anything out of the ordinary in you having two James Butchers with dads called James, living near each other!

It's almost as if they did it on purpose.....

EDIT - a beerhouse is not a pub, so don't skim through the records looking for pubs - the beerhouse could be a shop or even a private house.

OC

[Kit]

Could James the coachman and father have married twice?

I've seen a man remarry and have children by the same name to both wives.

[Merry]

You see, where you have been going wrong is getting yourself involved with a family who have such ordinary names! James Butcher?? Loads of them, I'll bet! :d

When I had a similar scenario in my tree I had the sense to make sure the man concerned was called Edwin Arthur Brassey Crockett, so that helped save me a load of head scratching! (He had five wives, all legal - four of them died in childbirth)

So, I suggest you disown the Butchers (any connection to the ones on East Enders??!!) and take up a different family instead :rolleyes::p:p

[maggie_4_7]

Could James the coachman and father have married twice?

I've seen a man remarry and have children by the same name to both wives.


mmmm never thought of that. I suppose that's a possibility.

I looked for James Butcher and Mary Gundry on the census for 1861 can't find them, doesn't mean they're not there of course.

[Kit]

He had five wives, all legal - four of them died in childbirth


However did he get the 5th wife? I'd have run a mile.

[Merry]

However did he get the 5th wife? I'd have run a mile.

That's what I always think! Even my relative who married him and died in childbirth after four children must have thought twice, despite only being the third wife - both the previous two had died at their first labour within a year of marriage :( Same happened with the fourth wife.

[Sue from Southend]

'Morning All!

OC - Right as usual! My James started life as a tailor then progressed(?) to Retailer of Beer then Licensed Victualler. So I take your point that James the Beer Seller may not appear in a Directory!
As to cousins etc with the same name - I just wish I knew! I have James' parents and half siblings but nothing concrete. Although others researching the family have taken a flying leap of faith with IGI and got back to 1700! Perhaps I'll have a look at this new James and his witnesses to see if there might be a connection.

Kit - My James father (James the coachman!) did remarry and I have the names of his children from that marriage, no other James. I have nothing on him after that so if he may married a third time......

Merry - Sometimes I wish I could disown the Butchers - some of my cousins could be the Butchers off EastEnders! (apologies if any of them read this!) Unfortunately James grandson Joseph had the cheek to marry an Ann Butcher (no relation) ....... So double Butchers for me! Luckily none on that side are named James!

Maggie - I too, keep looking for James and Mary Ann but no joy. There doesn't seem to be a likely death for Mary Ann either although there are a few possibles for James....

Thanks again for all your interest and help.