View Full Version : New Zealand question
I am doing granddaughter’s ‘other side’ and have an issue.
I’m trying to make this work, or prove it wrong.
John Henry Holman born 1846 Cornwall, England marries
Mary Josephine Keefe, born 1852 Sydney, NSW
They marry 30 Dec 1870 Auckland NZ
That is my first issue……I know it’s not impossible but seems a bit odd……read on..
Children
Josiah 1871
Elizabeth 1873
John Henry 1876
All born Thames or Auckland NZ.
Now all the family is back in Qld by the time Josiah dies in 1919. The parents die in Qld.
I can’t find a shipping record. I can find a John Henry Holman in NZ in Papers Past.
I can only think they came out straight after WW1.
Or I have messed up the families completely………lol
kiterunner
01-08-22, 23:00
I'm off to bed in a second but just looking at a public tree on Ancestry which has John Henry jr marrying Emily Jane Smith in Queensland in 1905 and with the parents dying in Queensland in the 1890's, so it looks as though they moved there a long time before WW1, though I haven't actually checked those records. Goodnight!
Thanks. I saw that tree, but the owner has no proof. John signed up in NZ for WW1 by the paper report.
1866 electoral roll there are 3 HOLMANs in Whangarei area, Charles Henry, Josiah, and John Henry. John Henry address was Abbey Farm Parahaki
Henry Charles HOLMAN late of Whangarei, died 21 November 1893 Ponsonby (which is in Auckland), age 81, so b c1814. He was buried Whangarei
Cemetery records says he was born 30 December 1812 Topsham Devonshire
Find a grave says his wife was Elizabeth Ann who died 1917 age 94
There are a number of children named on family trees and Find a grave but they dont appear to include Josiah or John Henry.
I cannot find anything for those three on passenger lists either, but they are not easy to search!
Papers past 1866 says that the house of Mr HOLMAN of the Abbey Parahaki was burnt down while Mr HOLMAN and family were in Australia
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH18660827.2.19?end_date=31-12-1871&items_per_page=10&page=8&phrase=2&query=+holman&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1839
Oh, but a later report says it was the home of Josiah, so I am not sure that helps! Except to show that Josiah and John Henry lived close to each other!
Unless Josiah is the father of John Henry and is the one who died in NSW 1893, and they are this family
https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=8860&h=17009475&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=1779
Thanks Chris. I’ll play with that. The shipping records are hard to get. Still can’t find my grandfather coming to Australia in about 1925.
Chris…..if that is the 1866 roll, it would be different Josiah and John, although they could be uncles. Maybe John Henry who came from Cornwall, went to NZ because of a family connection. Just thinking out loud. Am waiting for the dentist…….lol. Thought I’d read here while I wait.
NZ BDM has John Henry born 1876 son of John Henry and Mary Josephine.
John Henry junior marries in Qld in 1905 and has John Henry and Mary Josephine as parents, so presume there is another branch of this family earlier in NZ who stay there.
ElizabethHerts
02-08-22, 07:20
HOLMAN, JOHN HENRY mother's maiden name SIMMONS
GRO Reference: 1846 D Quarter in REDRUTH UNION Volume 09 Page 275
Day Month 04-Jul
Year 1842
Parish Circuit Or Chapel Gwennap
Groom Fn Josiah
Groom Sn HOLMAN
Groom Age minor
Groom Residence Caernmarthe
Groom Condition bachelor
Groom Rank Profession miner
Groom Signed / Marked (S/M) s
Groom Father Name James
Groom Father Rank Profession mine agent
Bride Fn Elizabeth
Bride Sn SIMMONS
Bride Age minor
Bride Residence Bell
Bride Condition spinster
Bride Rank Profession
Bride Signed / Marked (S/M) s
Bride Father Name John Mefris?
Bride Father Rank Profession yeoman
Banns / Licence (B/L) L
Witness Fn1 James
Witness Sn1 HOLMAN
Witness Fn2 Edmd.
Witness Sn2 WHITBURN
Other Information
Transcriber Notes
Transcriber K Duvall/M Cordrey
Gwennap is less than 4 miles from Redruth.
I note the first child was called Josiah.
ElizabethHerts
02-08-22, 07:28
https://www.ancestry.com/genealogy/records/josiah-holman-24-1rwtb6?geo_a=r&geo_s=us&geo_t=us&geo_v=2.0.0&o_xid=62916&o_lid=62916&o_sch=Partners
This shows some more information, but I haven't verified any of it.
kiterunner
02-08-22, 08:40
Okay, on Queensland BDM: John Henry Holman died 18/1/1892, father Josiah Henry Holman. Mary Josephine Holman died 19/4/1891, father Michael Keefe, mother Mary.
So the parents had moved to Queensland by 1891.
Also John Henry Holman married Emily Smith 30/9/1905.
kiterunner
02-08-22, 08:47
Trove newspapers:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/213480943?searchTerm=john%20henry%20holman
The Daily Northern Argus, Rockhampton, Queensland, 20 Apr 1891
The friends of John Henry Holman are respectively invited to attend the funeral of his deceased beloved Wife, to move from her late residence Quay-street, opposite the Gas Work, THIS (Monday) AFTERNOON, at 3.30 o'clock for the Rockhampton Cemetery.
The friends of Josiah and John Henry Holman, Jnr, are respectively invited to attend the funeral of their deceased beloved Mother, to move from her late residence Quay-street, opposite the Gas Work, THIS (Monday) AFTERNOON, at 3.30 o'clock for the Rockhampton Cemetery.
So John Henry jr and Josiah had also moved to Queensland by 1891.
Or the family had homes in both NZ and Queensland at the same time.
Thank you. I think maybe a couple of branches of the same family, who just conveniently name their children the same.
I suppose it’s better than my Grants and Gordon’s. One lot has three Isabells and two Roberts. They all lived to adulthood. Not sure how the parents called them.
kiterunner
02-08-22, 11:51
The children born in New Zealand are definitely the same people who later lived in Queensland, or are you not saying they aren't?
I thought they were, but just needed reassurance. I wasn’t sure how the other family still in NZ was connected. Still not sure, but happy with this line. Thanks.
I will look at connecting the other NZ group later.
Libby, have you seen this?
http://www.cadiavalleyheritage.com.au/historical-timeline/1860s/cadia-1862-1864-josiak-holman-cornish-mine-captain/
There was also a talk about Josiah in May this year in Orange by one of Josiah's great grandsons. The library might be able to put you in touch with him.
https://www.orange.nsw.gov.au/event/local-history-talk-josiah-holman-cadia-mining-captain/
And more, giving a bit more of his timeline.
http://cornishstory.com/2016/07/08/the-cornish-coincidence/
If you google "Josiah Holman" mine captain you get a number of hits, I haven't been through them all.
There is also a thread about him on RootsChat which gives details of his children and where they were born:
Elizabeth Simmons Holman born 21 December 1842 ( not very long after the marriage)
Emily Holman b 10 January 1844 died as an infant
John Henry Holman 12 October 1846
Emily Louisa Holman 15 November 1849 born in Brazil
Josiah Holman 10 October 1853
Charles William Holman Born Capetown ( my G Grandfather) 13 January 1857
Annie Holman Born New Zealand 2 Nov 1859
This excerpt from here:
http://www.celticcouncil.org.au/cornish/nsw/Towns%20A-C/CADIA%20History/Cadia%20History%201.pdf
ties in with the newspaper excerpt about the housefire. The family had obviously already moved to NSW. It does however say that John Henry was born in Brazil!
In 1858, Josiah and Elizabeth Holman had five children, born either in Cornwall or at distant
places where Josiah’s mining work had taken the family.
Elizabeth Simmons Holman b.1842 Cornwall
John Henry Holman b.1846 Brazil
Emily Louisa Holman b.1849 Cornwall
Josiah Holman b.1853 Cornwall
Charles William Holman b.1857 Capetown, South Africa
Josiah and Elizabeth must have decided that the time was ripe to move to New Zealand.
Josiah had anticipated that the 1106 ton ship Caduceus would depart for New Zealand late in
January 1859 and made bookings for the seven of them.
Caduceus under the command of Captain Cass sailed from London on 13 February 1859 and
arrived in Auckland on 19 May 1859. Before he departed from Truro, Josiah Holman wrote a
letter dated 11 January 1859 to John Penrose Christoe indicating that he was departing from
Cornwall with his family and stated “I go out (to NZ) entirely on speculation and failing to get
a situation shortly after my arrival in that country I intend to begin as a farmer”.
After arriving Auckland, Josiah Holman again wrote to Christoe on 4 December 1859 explaining that he would be interested for Christoe to advise him “if anything worth while turns up in
NSW” at the new mines being developed in the area. Josiah found no employment in
Auckland and purchased what was described as “a lot of wild land of 233 acres” at
Whangarei, about 75 miles north of Auckland. He housed his family, partially stocked the land
with cattle and was “…bringing a little of it into cultivation”. In the time after their arrival, there
had been an addition to the family in 1859, Annie Holman, born at Parahiki in New Zealand.
She was eventually to be the oldest member of the Holman family living at Cadia.
ElizabethHerts
02-08-22, 14:18
This excerpt from here:
http://www.celticcouncil.org.au/cornish/nsw/Towns%20A-C/CADIA%20History/Cadia%20History%201.pdf
ties in with the newspaper excerpt about the housefire. The family had obviously already moved to NSW. It does however say that John Henry was born in Brazil!
In 1858, Josiah and Elizabeth Holman had five children, born either in Cornwall or at distant
places where Josiah’s mining work had taken the family.
Elizabeth Simmons Holman b.1842 Cornwall
John Henry Holman b.1846 Brazil
Emily Louisa Holman b.1849 Cornwall
Josiah Holman b.1853 Cornwall
Charles William Holman b.1857 Capetown, South Africa
Josiah and Elizabeth must have decided that the time was ripe to move to New Zealand.
Josiah had anticipated that the 1106 ton ship Caduceus would depart for New Zealand late in
January 1859 and made bookings for the seven of them.
Caduceus under the command of Captain Cass sailed from London on 13 February 1859 and
arrived in Auckland on 19 May 1859. Before he departed from Truro, Josiah Holman wrote a
letter dated 11 January 1859 to John Penrose Christoe indicating that he was departing from
Cornwall with his family and stated “I go out (to NZ) entirely on speculation and failing to get
a situation shortly after my arrival in that country I intend to begin as a farmer”.
After arriving Auckland, Josiah Holman again wrote to Christoe on 4 December 1859 explaining that he would be interested for Christoe to advise him “if anything worth while turns up in
NSW” at the new mines being developed in the area. Josiah found no employment in
Auckland and purchased what was described as “a lot of wild land of 233 acres” at
Whangarei, about 75 miles north of Auckland. He housed his family, partially stocked the land
with cattle and was “…bringing a little of it into cultivation”. In the time after their arrival, there
had been an addition to the family in 1859, Annie Holman, born at Parahiki in New Zealand.
She was eventually to be the oldest member of the Holman family living at Cadia.
John Henry's birth was registered in Cornwall:
HOLMAN, JOHN HENRY mother's maiden name SIMMONS
GRO Reference: 1846 D Quarter in REDRUTH UNION Volume 09 Page 275
See post 8.
John Henry's birth was registered in Cornwall:
HOLMAN, JOHN HENRY mother's maiden name SIMMONS
GRO Reference: 1846 D Quarter in REDRUTH UNION Volume 09 Page 275
See post 8.
Yes I had seen it. That's why I put an exclamation mark :)
Here is the passenger list for Caduceus with them on it.
http://www.ozlists.com/genies/shipping/news_nz/nl_caduc.htm
Thank you all so much. My granddaughter has gone from knowing her grandmother’s name was “Nanna” to all this in a couple of days. When she was young, she loved coming with me to cemeteries, but as she got older, she gave that up. Now she is hooked at the ripe old age of nineteen……..lol
Chris………is there a site I haven’t found with shipping between NZ and Australia. My grandfather, Michael Bowler, born Patel 1885, came out here after WW1. I have a photo of him in Bath England with the NZ Army band in about 1921/22 ish, and his daughter, my mother, was born here in 1928. S between early 1920 s to 1927. I have searched everywhere.
Thank you all so much. My granddaughter has gone from knowing her grandmother’s name was “Nanna” to all this in a couple of days. When she was young, she loved coming with me to cemeteries, but as she got older, she gave that up. Now she is hooked at the ripe old age of nineteen……..lol
Chris………is there a site I haven’t found with shipping between NZ and Australia. My grandfather, Michael Bowler, born Patel 1885, came out here after WW1. I have a photo of him in Bath England with the NZ Army band in about 1921/22 ish, and his daughter, my mother, was born here in 1928. S between early 1920 s to 1927. I have searched everywhere.
I have not found any passenger lists between Australia and NZ, occasionally there are some arrivals/departures reported in newspapers and available on Papers Past.
I find the UK to NZ ones hit and miss, there are I think 3 sites I use and only one is sort of searchable on site. Some are available of Family Search, and I looked there the other day but they did not appear on there. The link is probably the best site for the number of ships listed but not searchable unfortunately. Once I had the name of the ship then I found it.
The same site as a few "others" which are mainly UK to NZ but via some other places including Australia, so you may be lucky.
https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~shipstonz/genealogy/shipsadd.html
CornishCoincidence
02-04-23, 23:43
I wondered how you are progressing with your Captain Josiah Holman search. Any specific questions, please let me know. On March 8 1863 from the Port of Auckland a Holman is listed as a passenger on the Airedale travelling to Southern ports including Sydney. It is generally agreed he arrived in Australia some time in March. Elizabeth, wife and family, I believe three youngest children, Josiah Jr, Charles and Annie travelled later in January 1865.
vBulletin® v3.8.7 PL3, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.