View Full Version : Parents of Elizabeth and Charles Bray
These would be my MMMMM and MMMMF.
Charles Bray (31 January 1811 – 5 October 1884) is well documented as a ribbon manufacturer, social radical and friend of George Eliot, (when she was still Mary Ann or Marian Evans). His Wikipedia page says his father died in 1835, leaving him and each of his 6 siblings a 'substantial inheritance'.
One of those, his older sister Elizabeth, (my MMMM) was also a close friend of Mary Ann Evans, (and introduced Charles to her.) Elizabeth married Abijah Hill Pears on 28 May 1834. In the 1851 census she gave her age as 48, so was probably born in 1807 or 1808.
The father of Charles and Elizabeth (and also of James, Emily, Mary, Ann and Helen) was named Jonathan Bray and his Will naming those children (with a codicil naming Abijah) was proved on 2 Jul 1835 (PROB 11/1849/24).
However, there is confusion about his marriage (or marriages). Several trees on Ancestry.com list a marriage between Jonathan Bray and Elizabeth Harvey, in April 1815, with Jonathan's occupation listed as 'ribbon manufacturer'.
The most plausible of those trees gives the birth or baptism dates for all the children, and a marriage to Elizabeth Harvey on 23 Apr 1815. She was the mother of the youngest, Helen, who was born in 1819, but not of the older ones. That tree gives his date of birth as 1775 and his baptism date as 27 Oct 1791, in Stoke, Warwickshire - see
https://www.ancestrylibrary.com/family-tree/person/tree/184030241/person/152398038171/facts
But I am slightly skeptical about the baptism record, at the Anglican parish church at Stoke, with parents William and Mary. If it were a nonconformist chapel I might find it easier to believe that this was a 13 or 16-year old. There is another equally implausible baptism record for a Jonathan Bray, with parents Joseph and Ann, at St. Michaels, Coventry, on 31 Oct 1792.
There is a burial record from Stoke, Warwickshire, dated 27 Apr 1835, for a Jonathan Bray, aged 57. That would mean he was born in 1778. The same page has a record of the burial two weeks earlier of a Mary Bray, aged 25.
His first wife was my MMMMM, but I have so far drawn a blank on identifying her.
One more point: there was another child, named Henry, baptised on 12 May 1815, at St. Michael Coventry, listing parents as Jonathan and Elizabeth (a month after their marriage). This Henry was buried at Stoke on 9 Jul 1829. Either Elizabeth was very pregnant when they married, or Henry was a child of the first wife, who then probably died soon after his birth.
In the 1851 census she gave her age as 48, so was probably born in 1807 or 1808.
I agree that her entry in 1851 says 48 b Coventry, but that would suggest a birth date of 1802/3. EDIT: however, see post #6
Nothing to do with what you are looking for now, but do you know why the burial record for Jonathan says "Copied out and sent to the register office May 20th 1855 James Bray"? Just me being curious!
I'm surprised that the 1815 marriage gives Jonathan's condition as bachelor.
I looked at the marriage allegation on FMP and that does state Jonathan to be a ribbon manufacturer but also a bachelor. Why would that be? You mention a Jonathan Bray bap 1792 in Coventry. Isn't it more likely this is his marriage? (or the chap from Stoke bap 1791?) Have you already examined what happened to these other Jonathans, in the assumption neither is your man? Might either of them describe themselves as ribbon manufacturers? I'm not saying this 1815 marriage isn't for your man, but the bachelor ref does throw up these question.
So his children are Elizabeth, Charles, James, Emily, Mary, Ann and Helen? Have you tracked the latter four children to establish approx year of birth and place of birth from census records? EDIT Not Mary, obviously, as she died in 1835, or Helen who I presume is the 1838 burial (no registration?).
The same page has a record of the burial two weeks earlier of a Mary Bray, aged 25.
The Leamington Spa Courier 18 April 1835 describes her as 'Mary Bray dau of Jonathan Bray Esq of Coventry' and Jonathan's fourth daughter.
I've not read Jonathan's will other than looking at the dates, but I'm assuming all the children mentioned above are beneficiaries?
Re the baby, Henry I wonder if he is the child of the couple JB and Eliz Harvey who perhaps married in haste, but maybe that isn't your couple.
Having asked a lot of questions, I don't have much time to look at anything now, but will have a look later if someone else doesn't beat me to it!
Names in JBs will signed 9 Jul 1833 proved 2 Jul 1835 (I've added their approx dobs where poss):
Mrs Baker, widow
son, James Bray
Abraham Herbert of Stoke silkman
John Summers of Coventry ironmonger
Cleophas Ratliff Coventry silkman
Henry Power Atherstone gentleman
son Charles Bray (b 1811)
tenant, Thomas Brown
dau Ann Bray
dau Emily Bray
dau Elizabeth Bray (b 1802/3)
dau Mary Bray (b 1809/10 - described as fourth daughter, and given the order here I imagine Ann and Emily were older than Elizabeth and Mary)
dau Helen Bray (under 21)
in codicil, Abijah Hill Pears
I think that's it, I had to speed up as I read through as I was running out of time again!
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2445/images/4292017_00710?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=601be2f76915743f9c083705d87a58ca&pId=9976593
Do you know who Caroline Bray is here? (bottom left)
Oh, Charles' wife, perhaps?
EDIT - Oh, Charles and Caroline didn't marry until the following year!!
Hmmm, Emily (Jackling) is aged 45 in 1851, putting her a bit younger than Elizabeth.
Maybe this 1871 census is more accurate?:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/896503:7619
The two sisters together, Emily 65 and Elizabeth 63 which fits the order on JB's will and makes Elizabeth born in 1808ish as you originally stated in the opening post.
Here's the will of Ann Bray, sgned 7 May 1835 and proved 23 Dec 1845.
It mentions sisters Helen, Elizabeth (Pears) and Emily.
I don't know if this is her?
Bur 29 Jan 1837 at Coventry, St Michael aged 43
If it is and if the age is correct then she was born fairly significantly before the other children.
From the 1851 census James Bray was born about 1807, so Ann was the only one before the turn on the century.
Of course we only have the burial record for Jonathan's age, so equally frustrating!
I know it's presumed JB was born in the late 1770s (burial record), but I just have to mention there's a Jonathan Bray marrying a Hannah Bradshaw in Manchester (he is of Salford) and the marriage allegation says he is a silk manufacturer. All this was in 1790, so in theory too early to be your JB. Of course if he really had a daughter (Ann) in 1793/4 (if!), then it would be doubtful that he was born in 1778!!
If his age at burial is incorrect it's conceivable he could have had a son who was married in 1815, though that son would probably need to die before his father's will was written.
I'm just thinking I might need a lie down! lol
I'm surprised there doesn't seem to be a newspaper death notice for JB.
Could this Jonathan and Elizabeth (bottom left) be the couple who married in 1815?
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/11136176:8978?tid=&pid=&queryId=eda8dac52186332e86b270509100eb17&_phsrc=psY30678&_phstart=successSource
They could be the parents of Henry who died and also of George who you didn't mention (born and died 1816/7). The father for those two is silkman whereas the father for Helen is ribbon manufacturer. I realise these occupations are interchangable, but just thought I'd note it.
If we look at marriages that are apparently too early, there's also the one to Ann Wright in Cov in 1791. I can't find an image for this and it doesn't way which church on the transcript. Of course then the first dau is named Ann!
The area seems thick with Jonathan Brays!!
Oooh, on FMP there's an administration of the estate of (yet another!) Jonathan Bray, who died in (or the admin was dated) in 1813. The person dealing with the estate was another Johnathan Bray (yours??) ribbon manufacturer of Cov and his signature matches one I saw somewhere else a little earlier today!! I think it was a witness to the marriage of James Bray to Sarah someone, but I don't have time to look again now.
The dec'd man's widow was called Ann (noted on the administration)
So, if this is your Jonathan, his sig is not particularly like the sig on the 1815 marriage. I guess he doesn't have to be administering the estate of his father - it could be brother, uncle etc. Need to see the age of the dec'd to get a handle on that.
I can't find a burial at the moment.
kiterunner
31-07-22, 13:18
Nothing to do with what you are looking for now, but do you know why the burial record for Jonathan says "Copied out and sent to the register office May 20th 1855 James Bray"? Just me being curious!
If you browse through, it says the same at the bottom of other entries too. It might not relate to the particular entry where it appears but maybe noting that that is where they were up to with the copies?
kiterunner
31-07-22, 13:34
I always take what it says on Find a Grave with a pinch of salt, but it has Jonathan Bray marrying Elizabeth Bray 21 Oct 1803. Ancestry doesn't seem to have an image for this marriage record but does have a transcription of the marriage licence record in the Staffordshire marriages:
Name: Jonathan Bray
Marriage Banns Age: 21
Marriage License Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage License
Birth Date: 1782
Residence Place: Offchurch, Warwick
Marriage Banns Date: abt 1803
Marriage License Date: 21 Oct 1803
Marriage License Place: St Michael, St Michael, England
Spouse: Elizabeth Bray
Occupation: Farmer
Edit - it seems that the image for this is on FMP plus there is another entry for Jonathan Bray on there, for 1804. I haven't viewed them.
kiterunner
31-07-22, 13:39
Also from Find a Grave, there is a photo of what is supposed to be a memorial to the daughter Ann. I can't read the image but their transcription says
In the memory of
ANNE BRAY
Eldest daughter of the late Jonathan Bray Esq
of Coventry
Who died November 21st 1845
Aged 41 years
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/28853824/ann-bray
kiterunner
31-07-22, 13:43
And this is the burial which Find a Grave says is Jonathan's wife Elizabeth:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2444/images/4291950_00448?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=390efc7cce5a7189adda3448fc332405&pId=3127842
Buried 21 Dec 1819 age 39. If Helen was born in 1819 and was the youngest child, I guess that would fit.
lol OK, thanks kiterunner. I was imagining sone sort of dispute!!
Not sure who this is yet:
Oracle and the Daily Advertiser 16 August 1808 (FMP image)
Partnerships Dissolved
Jonathan Bray and Mary Ann Smith, Coventry, silkman, March 5, 1808.
Back to that 1813 administration. I didn't look at page 2 before. This tells me that the relict, Ann Bray, had died before she could administer the estate of her husband and that is why JB was doing it instead, so the dec'd JB may have died some time before and Ann should have perhaps died more recently. Also, JB dec'd was a butcher. I've seen other entries for people called JB will butcher as part of the info. *wonders what they were* lol
kiterunner
31-07-22, 13:52
Baptism dates of children at St Michael, Coventry, parents Jonathan and Elizabeth:
James 20 May 1806
Elizabeth 21 May 1807
Mary 3 Jun 1809
Charles 22 Feb 1811
William 15 Apr 1812
Henry 12 May 1815
George 18 Sep 1816
Helen 14 Dec 1819.
But I couldn't find Ann(e) and Emily.
Oh, I didn't look back far enough! The original administration documents for JB dec'd, butcher, relict Ann are back in 1788!!
And his widow, Ann's will was proved in 1792 (FMP image)! She leaves 'everything' to her daughter Sarah Bray and her only son, Jonathan Bray!! She doesn't seem to say anyone is a minor. I have to admit to skim reading because I just wanted to see if a Jonathan was in the beneficiaries.
I will look closer later.
kiterunner
31-07-22, 14:01
The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography says that Charles was "the son of Jonathan Bray (1775/6–1835), a wealthy ribbon manufacturer, and his first wife, Elizabeth."
Oooh, they are both minors!!
The will also has ref to several relatives of Ann - Her brother (so her maiden name is here - Lee, Tee or something similar), a married sister and a married sister of her late husband, so loads to look at. This will was signed 4 Jan 1792, so both Ann's children should have been born after Jan 1771. I think that should eliminate the Manchester marriage in 1790 as the marriage licence says over 21. I don't know about the 1791? Cov marriage as the transcription doesn't have much detail.
kiterunner
31-07-22, 14:10
Since this mentions Abraham Herbert it must be relevant:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/4e05a81b-2219-42c6-b391-a0270126b2a4
But if Jonathan Bray's wife was also a Bray by birth, some or all of the other Brays mentioned in that might be on her side rather than his! Though most probably they were cousins of some kind to each other.
So, here are the three sigs. The first is from 1813 administration of the estate of JB dec'd and is the sig of JB, ribbon manufacturer.
The second is of JB ribbon manufacturer, but this man was a bachelor in 1815 whilst your JB had six? children by that date. I think he (the 1815 groom) and wife Elizabeth are still alive in 1841. She passed away in 1850 aged 60 according to the newspaper and he then vanishes!!
The third is the witness to the marriage of your Jonathan's son James Bray to Sarah Bunney in 1828.
856
857
858
IMHO the first and last signatures are v similar but the middle one less so, which would fit with what I want, but I'm no nearer to finding who your JB married and whether he had one or two brides (or more!).
I must do my grocery order now, or it won't get delivered!!
Since this mentions Abraham Herbert it must be relevant:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/4e05a81b-2219-42c6-b391-a0270126b2a4
But if Jonathan Bray's wife was also a Bray by birth, some or all of the other Brays mentioned in that might be on her side rather than his! Though most probably they were cousins of some kind to each other.
That just made my head hurt!
JB senr married Ann Jee in 1767 in Cov. No mention of the church on the transcription.
I can't find an image for this:
Name: Jonathan Bray
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 26 Jul 1777
Baptism Place: Saint Michael,Coventry,Warwick,England
Father:
Jonathan Bray
Mother:
Ann
FHL Film Number: 428986, 428987
Nothing for Sarah that I could see.
You won't believe this!!
having spent an age on this, I just did a search on FMP and the baps (of some anyway) are there!!
kiterunner
31-07-22, 14:45
I can't find an image for this:
Name: Jonathan Bray
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 26 Jul 1777
Baptism Place: Saint Michael,Coventry,Warwick,England
Father:
Jonathan Bray
Mother:
Ann
FHL Film Number: 428986, 428987
Nothing for Sarah that I could see.
There is an Ann baptism 6 Jun 1771 with the same parents, but I can't find Sarah either.
James 20 May 1806 Jonathan and Elizabeth
Elizabeth 21 May 1807 Jonathan and Elizabeth
Mary 03 Jun 1809 Jonathan and Elizabeth
Charles 22 Feb 1811 Jonathan and Elizabeth
so that's four of the six before Helen. Ann and Emily are missing at the mo.
kiterunner, I seem to have missed some of your posts. I see I had the wrong death/burial for Ann and her birth was probably also after 1800, so I'm thinking Jonathan and Eliz married about 1800 and as you found, Eliz died in 1819. This fits perfectly. Just no marriage at the moment!!
kiterunner
31-07-22, 14:52
Merry, I don't think you have seen my post #13.
kiterunner
31-07-22, 15:06
Looking at St Michael, Coventry, in the FamilySearch catalogue, it looks as though the early parish registers are in bad condition and we would need the Bishop's Transcripts for the images of various records.
I always take what it says on Find a Grave with a pinch of salt, but it has Jonathan Bray marrying Elizabeth Bray 21 Oct 1803. Ancestry doesn't seem to have an image for this marriage record but does have a transcription of the marriage licence record in the Staffordshire marriages:
Name: Jonathan Bray
Marriage Banns Age: 21
Marriage License Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage License
Birth Date: 1782
Residence Place: Offchurch, Warwick
Marriage Banns Date: abt 1803
Marriage License Date: 21 Oct 1803
Marriage License Place: St Michael, St Michael, England
Spouse: Elizabeth Bray
Occupation: Farmer
Edit - it seems that the image for this is on FMP plus there is another entry for Jonathan Bray on there, for 1804. I haven't viewed them.
You are right, I'd not looked back far enough for all your posts!
I will look at the images....still not done my grocery order!
kiterunner
31-07-22, 15:12
Now you will understand what I meant about that TNA catalogue entry with all the Brays in it! Anyway, get on with ordering your food...
lol I remember looking at that record about 1000 years ago this morning. At the time I thought it was too late for Jonathan and didn't care what his wife's forename was! Also, he wasn't a farmer!! However, now that we know his wife was Elizabeth and the date is OK, or even good, it looks a lot more promissing! The sig on the allegation is different to those in my earier post, but if pushed, it is closer to the two sigs I posted earlier that I think are the right man (1813 and 1828) just a less confident version and with Jonathan in full. I guess I should post the image.........
EDIT the 1804 entry is for a different JB (marrying Mary someone and no Cov connection)
Now you will understand what I meant about that TNA catalogue entry with all the Brays in it! Anyway, get on with ordering your food...
Yes lol (to both)
Thanks for all this information. I am not quite as confused as I was before, but the picture is by no means clear.
It does appear that JB's first wife was also named Elizabeth.
I don't have a subscription to ancestry.co.uk, and rely on their library edition, but here is another tree that partially confirms the details of Emily Jickling (nee Bray), but also muddies the water.
https://www.ancestrylibrary.com/family-tree/person/tree/78558134/person/222218145686/facts?_phsrc=RpV416&_phstart=successSource
I also have one more factoid that ight provide a clue: a note by my father written in about 1967 says that Charles and Elizabeth had an aunt - Jonathan's sister, who married a Colonel Barrow, of Bath, and that the Brays of Coventry made frequent visits to Bath to visit them.
I think JB married once in 1803. Hs wife died in 1819. She was the mother of all his children.
His parents were another JB and Ann nee Jee who married in 1768.
re the sister in Bath (FMP image):
Taunton Courier, and Western Advertiser 24 December 1834
Deaths
On the 22nd instant, in the sixtieth year of her age, Sarah, the beloved wife of Lieut. Colonel Barrow, late of the 69th Regiment , - a kind and affectionate wife and mother.
So, born about 1774 and named in her mother's will as a minor so that looks good.
Your link re Emily Jickling doesn't work for me.
It would seem the Barrow's were living in Taunton when they died (Charles Barrow died 1835. There's a PCC will for him). Some of their children were born in India by the look of it.
and here is their marriage (image FMP):
St Leonard's, Deal, Kent
Charles James Barrow otp bachelor and Sarah Bray otp spinster
married by licence 22 Mar 1800 both signed
Witnesses Jonathan Bray (sig looks like the one for his own marriage licence in 1803) and E Foreman (signed).
Here are the burial dates for Jonathan and Sarah's parents:
Jonathan Bray Burial 2 Sep 1788 Stoke
Ann Bray Burial 20 Feb 1792 Stoke
On the image Ann's entry says 'from Coventry' but there are no commects for Jonathan.
FMP has a list of monumental inscriptions for St Michael's in Stoke, Coventry. Unfortunately to see what they say you would have to download this pdf for £6.50:
https://midland-ancestors.shop/Warwickshire/Warwickshire-Monumental-Inscriptions-MIs/Stoke-St.-Michael-I106D?limit=100
These people are on it, and plenty of others who might be relations:
(all surname Bray)
Ann 1792
Two Helen's 1830 and 1838 which is interesting
Jonathan 1788 and 1835
Mary 1835
Those are just the ones I recognised, so may have missed some people! There are 27 people named Bray included.
I think some pieces are falling into place. Here is what I think we now know.
1. The JB baptised at Stoke St. Michael in 1781 seems to have been the son of an earlier Jonathan Bray and Elizabeth Cartwright. He married Diana Clues there on 3 Feb 1811, was buried there on 18 Jan 1838 (aged 57). They had 3 children: William, Ann and Elizabeth
see https://www.ancestrylibrary.com/family-tree/person/tree/174220162/person/242265202569/facts?_phsrc=RpV446&_phstart=successSource
2. 'My' JB was baptised in the same church on 26 Jul 1777, the son of an earlier JB and Ann (?) Lee. I don't have an FMP subscription, so have not been able to look her Will, but it sounds right, especially with the corroboration of the sister in Bath.
(I am also not sure if we should discount the JB whose estate was being administered in 1813, and whose widow, Ann, died at around the same time)
3. I am quite pleased to think that the marriage in 1815 of Jonathan Bray to Elizabeth Harvey in Allesley now seems to be another JB altogether.
(I am also not sure if we should discount the JB whose estate was being administered in 1813, and whose widow, Ann, died at around the same time)
No don't discount it, i'm pretty sure this is the administration of the JB who was buried in 1788!! It is mentioned in the will of Ann in 1792 (think that was the date). I don't know why it took so long!
If you pm me your email address I can send you the images of Ann's 1792 will and the administration docs for her husband's estate.
That just made my head hurt!
Thank you for the images of the administrative forms and Ann's Will. I now have no doubt that she and JB the butcher were the parents of JB the father of Charles and Elizabeth. My father's note about the sister of JB who married Colonel Barrow seems to provide additional independent corroboration.
I was slightly surprised to see that Ann signed her Will with an 'X', but the administrative paper with a rather clumsy signature, although her children were clearly quite well educated.
Tracking down the Jee family will not be easy. There were at least 4 men named Samuel Jee who were married at Holy Trinity, Coventry, in the 18th century. There was another who married Ann Bray at St. Michaels on 17 Dec 1767. But I also found a reference dated in 1793 to a Samuel Jee, Staymaker whose wife was apparently named Ann Kerby. see
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Worcester-180
There was another Samuel Jee who was a churchwarden at St. Michael's in 1746. He is more likely to be linked to Ann Jee's brother - maybe their father, or an uncle.
I am beginning also to accept that in 1803 the younger JB could have listed his occupation as a farmer when he married that other Elizabeth Bray. You have more experience matching signatures than I do, but I agree that the match is reasonably good. Of course that means that this Elizabeth Bray was my MMMMM, and to go back further into my mitochondrial ancestry I will have to try to tackle the rest of the Bray clan.
The link supplied by Kiterunner mentions JB, his friend Abraham Herbert and all those other Bray cousins. I will see if any of those provide a starting point for further research.
I think this Samuel is the brother of Ann Bray nee Jee and he is mentioned in her will:
Samuel Jee Burial 8 Jun 1802 Stoke
Administration was granted to his widow, Ann, in April 1806. Samuel died 2 Jun 1802 and he was a staymaker.
Samuel and his sister Ann Bray nee Jee were the children of another Samuel Jee who signed his will 28 Feb 1767. Probate was granted 29 Apr 1768 to dau "Ann Bray otherwise Jee the wife of Jonathan Bray". I've not found his burial or read the will yet.
There was another who married Ann Bray at St. Michaels on 17 Dec 1767. But I also found a reference dated in 1793 to a Samuel Jee, Staymaker whose wife was apparently named Ann Kerby.
Perhaps the staymaker married twice, firstly to Ann Bray 17 Dec 1767 Saint Michael,Coventry and secondly 27 Feb 1792 to Ann Kirby at the same church. You need to discover whether the second marriage was for a widower a widower and find a death for the first Ann.
The first marriage has a marriage allegation mentioning his occ as staymaker.
Will of Samuel Jee senr, staymaker, signed 28 Feb 1767. Probate was granted 29 Apr 1768 to dau "Ann Bray otherwise Jee the wife of Jonathan Bray"
Family mentioned:
daughter Elizabeth Wafforn wife of Richard Wafforn of Birmingham, staymaker
daughter Frances Burnall wife of John Burnall of Birmingham, cordwainer
daughter Ann Jee (who married JB before probate was granted)
daughter Sarah Jee
son Samuel Jee
granddaughter Lucy Marshall (a minor)
daughter Mary Sugar the wife of John Sugar
Perhaps the staymaker married twice, firstly to Ann Bray 17 Dec 1767 Saint Michael, Coventry and secondly 27 Feb 1792 to Ann Kirby at the same church. You need to discover whether the second marriage was for a widower a widower and find a death for the first Ann.
The first marriage has a marriage allegation mentioning his occ as staymaker.
Thank you again.
The second marriage does not show up in my searches, but what you say makes perfect sense.
Since this Samuel is not my direct ancestor I am concentrating my attention now to the extensive Bray clan, in the hope of finding a clue to the family of JB's wife Elizabeth.
Unless you have another brilliant insight I think we can close this thread. If I come up with anything more promising I will open up a new thread.
I dug into the Bray family mentioned in the Lease and Release document cited by Kiterunner, but so far they have not given me much, and that may be an unproductive rabbit hole. But for the public record, here is what I found about the Brays in Kenilworth.
Thomas Bray m. Elizabeth Olson at St. Michael in 5 Jan 1784
Their son, Thomas, was baptised there on 25 Jan 1785
I think those are the two Thomas Brays named in the document. The reference to William Olson in the document tends to corroborate that connection.
The daughter, Ann Bray, married John Paxford Shaw (b. 1787) on 13 May 1817. The marriage license says she was 23, which is not quite consistent with the dates of the above marriage and baptism. I have not found a record for hers.
(John was a draper in Bedworth, and shows up in various places: a lawsuit and some parliamentary proceedings. Their daughter Sarah married Peter Unger Williams, a coal master and mining engineer who lived at Bedworth Hall).
Another daughter, Sarah Bray, married Josiah Page on 22 Jul 1813 at St. Michael. As a widower he had a second marriage in 1830 to Rebecca Nane, but he died in 1838 and was buried at Bedworth.
A third daughter Elizabeth (a spinster in the document) married William Perkins, a tanner in Kenilworth, on 14 Apr 1821.
I am concentrating my attention now to the extensive Bray clan, in the hope of finding a clue to the family of JB's wife Elizabeth.
We know Elizabeth was supposed aged 21+ on 21 Oct 1803 and was of the parish of St Michael, Coventry. She was buried 21 Dec 1819 age 39.
So, it's very likely she was born about 1780.
There's this baptism:
Elizabeth Bray bap 13 Jan 1780 Saint Michael, Coventry, Warwick, parents William and Mary (Ancestry, no image)
I'm not saying that's her for certain, but the whole family seems to be::
Ann 1775
Sarah 1776 (bur Xmas day 1776 dau of Wm and Mary Bray of Coventry - image FMP))
Elizabeth 1780
William 1781
Mary 1783
John 1785
Thomas 1788
There's a will for a William Bray, butcher, signed 24 Jan 1799 which names one daughter, Ann, and suggests that any other children (not named) are aged under 21. This fits well with the above.
There's no mention of a wife in the will.
There's a burial for Mary Bray 22 Jan 1795 at Stoke, the wife of Wm Bray, from Coventry (Image FMP)
William Bray was bur 27 Jan 1799 at Stoke (Image FMP)
There's a marriage 15 Feb 1774 at Withybrook, Warwickshire:
William Bray of the parish of St Michael in the City of Coventry and Mary Croft(s?) otp married by licence. They both signed. Witnesses Edwards Crofts and Richard Willson.
At the moment I can't find a marriage allegation.
I wondered if Wm Bray, butcher, and Jonathan Bray, butcher, might be brothers. There are tempting baptisms in the 1730s for children of Thomas and Elizabeth Bray of Stoke including a William and a Jonathan, but their child William, bap 1739, was buried in the 1740s. However, I wouldn't be surprised if this couple's son, Jonathan bap 1738, is the same Jonathan who died in 1788, so maybe JB and WB are just more distantly related. Unfortunately, Thomas Bray (father of Jonathan 1739) doesn't seem to have left a will when he died in 1767.
Actually, Jonathan Bray and William Bray (both butchers) may be half brothers.
Thomas Bray, who died in 1767 aged 75 a farmer and victualler and was buried at Stoke (image FMP), married firstly Elizabeth Green in Feb 1727/8 in Stoke and had several children bap there inc Jonathan 1738 and Wm 1739. As I said before, William died as a child. However, their mother Elizabeth was bur in 1742 at Stoke (wife of Thos, image FMP) and Thomas remarried.
There's a marriage allegation on FMP which gives Thomas's age as 'about 47' in Oct 1744, so the age doesn't match perfectly with his burial, but good enough for the time period! His bride was Mary Vice aged 'about 25' and they were both of the parish of Stoke. The marriage took place in Coventry and is another of those entries for which there only seems to be a transcription. I wonder if the date is wrong as the transcript says 03 Sep 1744 which is before the date on the allegation!
Anyway, Thomas and Mary had four children, the last of them being William bap at Stoke 8 Dec 1751. So perfectly possible he could have been the Willim who married in 1774 and died in 1799.
With regard to the various marriages with a transcription only - I think it's possible they are from St John the Baptist Coventry. The marriage allegation for Thomas Bray and his second wife, Mary Vice states they should marry either at Stoke or St J the B. There is no record of their marriage at Stoke and the pages for St John the Baptist are in some cases illegible. They are available to view on Ancestry. The page which may include the Bray/Vice marriage showing Mid Aug 1744 through to Jan 1744/5 is mostly illegible, so I'm presuming the transcriptions are from the BTs (I think kiterunner may have already said that!).
kiterunner
02-08-22, 08:51
No, when I mentioned PR's being damaged and needing the BT's I was talking about St Michael Coventry, Merry.
OK thanks.
It occurs to me that there could be confusion between records of Coventry Cathedral, dedicated to St Michael, and Stoke parsh church, also dedicated to St Michael, but obvs a separate parish.
I like the suggestion that the fathers of Elizabeth and Jonathan were half-brothers and both butchers. That would make Mary Crofts my MMMMMM, Elizabeth Green my MMMFFM, and Thomas both my MMMFFF and my MMMMMF.
It would be very tidy to find a connection between these families and the two Thomas Brays who were part of that contract. Was one of the other 3 children in William's second family named Thomas?
Was one of the other 3 children in William's second family named Thomas?
Do you mean the children of Thomas Bray and Mary Vice? The other three were all girls.
I think Thomas Bray had a son Thomas with his first wife, Elizabeth Green.
Do you mean the children of Thomas Bray and Mary Vice? The other three were all girls.
I think Thomas Bray had a son Thomas with his first wife, Elizabeth Green.
Yes, Thomas jr was baptised 10 Nov 1730, son of Thomas and Elizabeth
Do you mean the children of Thomas Bray and Mary Vice? The other three were all girls.
I think Thomas Bray had a son Thomas with his first wife, Elizabeth Green.
[QUOTE]
A son of that marriage would have been born before 1744, but could well be the one marrying Elizabeth Olson in 1784. That would have made him an uncle of JB the silkman, which also makes sense.
The Thomas who married in 1784 was a bachelor (from the marriage allegation) and the son of Thomas and Eliz would be aged well into his 50s. Fairly unusual for a first marriage. Not impossible of course….
I have found one or probably two other branches of the Bray clan that held its baptisms at St. Michael, Stoke, with parents also named Thomas and Elizabeth Bray.
There is a record for a Thomas Bray, with parents T&EB, who was baptised on 15 July 1756, and a likely burial record in Bedworth in 1840, for a TB aged 86. Since the daughters of the TB who married Elizabeth Olson lived at Bedworth, I think this is probably the one who married Elizabeth Olson in 1784.
There were 9 Bray children baptised at Stoke between 1760 (Elizabeth) and 1776 (Lydia) with parents named T&EB. Sadly, one of those, baptised in 1766 was also named Thomas, and in my search that baptism was somehow linked to a burial of a TB in 1767. That may be an error, since another TB was buried that year, but it is hard to imagine that that this T&EB named another child Thomas if they were also the parents of the one born in 1756 and still living.
Without the extra TB baptised in 1766, I would have concluded that the TB born in 1730 (son of TB the butcher and Elizabeth Green) married another Elizabeth and was the father of all those children. That would easily bridge the 57 year gap.
But that extra record for the 1766 baptism casts doubt that line of argument, and suggests that there were two couples with the same names having the children baptised in the same church.
I realize this is a particularly circuitous rabbit hole, and that chasing down the TB connections does nothing to advance my main goal of tracing ancestors. But the lack of clarity is frustrating. However, maybe we should let it go for now.
chasing down the TB connections does nothing to advance my main goal of tracing ancestors.
I don't really agree with that - it is often vital to map the complete jigsaw puzzle of family members to be certain (or more certain!) that you have your direct line correct. Creating a tree that encompasses all the individuals of a particular surname in a particular area and time fame can be very satisfying - You may also discover unexpected links between twigs of the tree that you would never have known about if you had persued your direct line only. I thnk one of the reasons so many online trees are lacking in accuracy is because the tree owner has not done this, being blinkered to their own direct line.
But the lack of clarity is frustrating. However, maybe we should let it go for now.
Surely the lack of clarity is what makes it interesting?! However, I agree that once you start to feel bogged down it may be better to move on to something different for a while. As long as you record everything you know or suspect so you can pick it up another time!
There were 9 Bray children baptised at Stoke between 1760 (Elizabeth) and 1776 (Lydia) with parents named T&EB. Sadly, one of those, baptised in 1766 was also named Thomas
I agree about nine baptisms between those dates for the children of T&EB. However, I don't see a Thomas?
Elizabeth 1760
Easter 1762
Jonathan 1765
Nathan 1765
John 1767
Elizabeth 1769
Richard 1772
James 1774
Lydia 1776
There is a Thomas Bray bap in 1766 but his parents are Jonathan and Elizabeth.
I would think
Mary 1754
Thomas 1756
William 1758
are also children of the same T&EB as the only marriage for a T to an E in these years is this one:
Name: Thomas Bray
Gender: Male
Marriage Date: 25 Oct 1753
Marriage Place: Holy Trinity,Coventry,Warwick,England
Spouse:
Elizabeth Collier
Without the extra TB baptised in 1766, I would have concluded that the TB born in 1730 (son of TB the butcher and Elizabeth Green) married another Elizabeth and was the father of all those children. That would easily bridge the 57 year gap.
So, as there doesn't seem to be a bap in 1766 (I did look through the PR images for the whole year) your original assumption would appear to be correct :)
There is a Thomas Bray bap in 1766 but his parents are Jonathan and Elizabeth.
OK - I see that now. I also now see the marriage of a TB to Elizabeth Collier - at Holy Trinity not at Stoke.
It is a only a small leap of faith (and one consistent with the principle of Occam's razor) to identify this TB with the one baptised on 10 Nov 1730, and that would make the TB Senior on the 1821 Lease and Release a first cousin of JB the silkmercer.
I appreciate your sympathetic comments about the lack of clarity being a motivating force.
I have also located a family tree on https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/MJSD-XYC which deals with the marriage of TB to Mary Vice. I plan to see if I can add to it, based on the research covered in this thread.
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