View Full Version : Calling Olde Crone! Calling Olde Crone!
It's been too hot to do much today and so I found myself reading one of your old threads when I was actually looking for something else!
I just wondered about this.....
WHITTAKER, JOSEPH mmn GRIMSHAW
GRO Reference: 1854 S Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 284
There don't seem to be any other registrations for siblings of the above. (Blackburn births Whittaker/Grimshaw are a different couple)
Here's the above child's baptism:
Manchester Cathedral, 24 Sep 1854, Joseph, son of Joseph and Ellen Whittaker, born 10 Aug 1854. Abode, Manchester, Trade, bricksetter.
I have looked for a marriage for this couple to no avail. I've tried church marriages where there is a Grimshaw father included in case this Ellen (Eleanor etc) had been married before. Still nothing. I've looked hardest at marriages immediately before the birth of Joseph (any bridal surname) and not found anything in Lancashire that I couldn't eliminate. I've looked at all the Manchester marriages between about 1848 and 1861 where the groom is Jos* Whit*aker to see if any of them look like they might be the same man recorded as Joseph's father. Nothing likely.
I've looked for the couple in 1861 or any appearance of their son separately. Nothing. I looked at deaths and there are none in Manchester that fit for the son or mother before 1861 (but of course they could have moved!). I've looked on FMP for men named Joseph Whit*aker with the word brick* in their entry but not found anything that looks like the same man.
Of course there are loads of other possibilities that would eliminate this couple and their son......
...but if none of the possibilities happened, could this child be Joseph Holden??!
Olde Crone
09-07-22, 16:38
Ooh Merry, you woke me up, lol.
Well now. That is really quite interesting and oddly, I was doing a quick sweep just last week for Joseph. (To no avail).
You may recall that my grandmother was a Whittaker who married a Holden. Of course, Whittaker is a very common name in Lancashire, but still.... (Her Whittakers were jewellers and painters and decorators).
I've never been able to fix on a date of birth for Joseph, my only living contact doesn't know, although we agree he is consistent in his year of birth (1854) and the place (Manchester).
Dear me, just as I had completely given up on Joseph, you pull this out of your hat, just like you did with James Holden's first wife!
OC
Olde Crone
09-07-22, 16:51
Hmm. How much is this worth?
Mr Joseph Holden, grocer, Roll member, admitted age 17 on 27th May 1872 (Oldham Rd Congregational Church). This would make him born in 1853 of course.
OC
kiterunner
09-07-22, 17:06
It would make him born in 1854-5, OC.
Olde Crone
09-07-22, 17:24
Thank you Kate, I scribbled my workings on a bit of paper, turned it round to do another column and went from 13 to 12 to 13 again!
OC
Joseph is with James and Ellen Holden in 1861, 71 and 1881. In each case his age fits with a birthday between Apr 1854 and Apr 1855. Then your Congregational Church record suggests between May 1854 and May 1855. 10 Aug 1854 fits all these!
I wasn't sure which entry was him after 1881? (and I don't know when he died, or if he married etc etc)
lol I've just realised, he's the one with middle name Grimshaw!!
lol I see, just two more years and we would have seen him and his date of birth on the 1939 Register!
Olde Crone
09-07-22, 19:33
Yes, he started to use the name Grimshaw when Ellen died - all the boys were estranged from James Holden senior by then.
I've been racking my brains to try to think of something that might have his birth date on it. My father said they were all apprenticed to a grocer but I think this might not have been a formal apprenticeship. They all finished up working for the Cooperative Society which I don't think did apprenticeships.
OC
Olde Crone
09-07-22, 19:38
He married Hannah Foden in 1881 and they moved to Leeds. They had four children, only one of whom married and had children.
OC
I imagined Joseph and Hannah would have married at Oldham Rd Congregational Church in Miles Platting (as the marriage was 'Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended'), but the entries for that are on Lancs OPC and there's no record for them. Maybe they married at the register office? I feel Joseph will have said James Holden was his father.
Olde Crone
09-07-22, 21:10
Yes, they married at the register office, according to lancsbmd. I see from my tree notes that I was going to send for his marriage cert but I don't think I did in the end. I expect he did put James as his father. According to my father, James senior was knocking Ellen about and sometime after 1881 and before 1888 (Ellen died) the boys got together and threw him out. I wonder if Ellen told Joseph that James was not his father at this point.
I have trawled lan-opc for any mention of James Whittaker, brick setter but the only mentions of brick setter are their fathers, lol. However, some of them lived in Oldham, which is where Ellen was in 1851, housekeeper to a doctor called James Murray - and yes, I checked to see if there was a baptism under that name!
I got very excited, thought I had found an adult baptism for Joseph Grimshaw Holden, but it was his son, how confusing, that son died and was replaced by Joseph Foden Holden.
So frustrating! I do think you are into something though.
OC
kiterunner
09-07-22, 21:55
I have trawled lan-opc for any mention of James Whittaker, brick setter but the only mentions of brick setter are their fathers, lol. However, some of them lived in Oldham, which is where Ellen was in 1851, housekeeper to a doctor called James Murray - and yes, I checked to see if there was a baptism under that name!
Isn't it Joseph Whittaker, brick setter?
lol I didn't notice that!
Olde Crone
09-07-22, 22:06
On gawd, time for bed. I spent two hours on that.
OC
kiterunner
09-07-22, 22:53
There is a Joseph Whittaker, bricklayer, in Crumpsall on the 1841 census age 50, with wife Ann age 50, and son Joseph jr age 15 (i.e. 15-19), also a bricklayer:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8978/images/LANHO107_581_581-0064?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=UMN10603&_phstart=successSource&pId=6215096
They are presumably the same couple whose daughter Maria was baptised in 1817 at Blackley, and Maria Whittaker married in 1837 giving her father's name as Joseph Whittaker, bricksetter. Joseph jr was baptised in 1822.
On the 1851 census Joseph sr is still in Crumpsall, age 65, and still a bricklayer:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8860/images/30859_A008157-00161?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=UMN10604&_phstart=successSource&pId=11698813
I'm not sure whether this is Joseph jr or a different Joseph, bricklayer:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8860/images/30859_A008157-00169?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=UMN10606&_phstart=successSource&pId=11698979
I looked at these yesterday, but have got a bit further today. It hadn't occurred to me they might be father and son!
The marriage image for Joseph Henry Whittaker and Ann Cartwright is on FMP (St John's Deansgate) in 1845 (checked mmn for dau Emily Harrison Whittaker). He was recorded as a bricklayer and so was his father, also Joseph.
Here are the two men in 1861:
The older Joseph:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8767/images/LANRG9_2971_2975-0320?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=14545915
and the younger one:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8767/images/LANRG9_2971_2975-0314?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=14545761
Both still in Crumpsall, both still with their wives (which I realise means nothing!)
Yesterday I felt the older man was maybe too old and the younger too successful to say he was a bricksetter (isn't that a labourer who takes the bricks in and out of the kiln?). However, I'm coming round to them, now that Kate has shown the ref to bricksetting on Maria's marriage entry that I hadn't seen before.
Oh, I've just had an idea.......
My idea was a failure!
Joseph jr died 15 Jan 1897. No will, just administration to son, Joseph Henry Whittaker, salesman.
Joseph sr died in 1861:
WHITTAKER, JOSEPH 79
GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 202
(Cheetham sub-district from Lancs BMD)
Olde Crone
10-07-22, 07:56
Thank you both. Looking at my jottings from last night, I did actually start with Joseph, but later switched to James, probably because I sidetracked to look for James Murray.
I wonder why Joseph didn't marry Ellen?
I have messaged my third cousin to see if he knows an exact birth date for Joseph but I don't hold out much hope.
OC
For anyone like me, who doesn't know much about Manchester geography, this is useful:
A map of the sub-districts in the city (I know it says 1871 on it, but there were almost no changes in Manchester district between 1837 and 1874):
https://luna.manchester.ac.uk/luna/servlet/workspace/handleMediaPlayer?lunaMediaId=maps002~1~1~415027~2 20732
Joseph Whittaker b 1854, son of Ellen Grimshaw was born in St George sub-district according to Lancs OPC. Crumpsall, where the bricklayers were living, was in Cheetham sub-district, so close together, but OC's Ellen was in Oldham in 1851.
I'm not too clear on where Manchester cathedral is (where Jos was baptised), but I'm guessing maybe either Deansgate or Market Street sub-districts? I presume therefore, that the baby was brought to the 'no questions asked' busy cathedral rather than the local parish church for a reason?!
I wonder why Joseph didn't marry Ellen?
Well, if he was one of those two bricklayers, because he already had a wife!
The younger bricklayer (Joseph Whittaker of Crumpsall) was made bankrupt in Dec 1862 (FMP newpapers)
If Joseph junior was the father, then his wife was pregnant when the Sept 1854 baptism took place at the cathedral. His dau, Josina Ann Whittaker was reg Q4 1854 and baptised in Jan 1855 at St Mark's Cheetham.
Joseph and Ann (nee Cartwright)'s first child, Emily Harrison Whittaker, was bap at the cathedral in 1847. They said their abode was Cheetham Hill and Joseph a bricklayer. The ceremony was performed by the same person who baptised Joseph seven years later!
I'm not too clear on where Manchester cathedral is (where Jos was baptised), but I'm guessing maybe either Deansgate or Market Street sub-districts? I presume therefore, that the baby was brought to the 'no questions asked' busy cathedral rather than the local parish church for a reason?!
I'm not hot on Manchester, but I think that Manchester was a place that grew like Topsy, with the parish church covering quite a large area. It subsequently became a cathedral, which is what it would have been when the Mormons filmed the records, but not what it would have been when these events took place.
Olde Crone
10-07-22, 08:53
Ah, that makes sense, lol. Same story as James Holden, his father married the one who got pregnant first.
I was born in Crumpsall, we lived in Blackley and our phone number was Cheetham Hill, so yes, all very close together. Yes, Manchester Cathedral asked no embarrassing questions, so that circumvented the lack of a husband, lol.
OC
Became a cathedral in 1847. Lots of chapels of ease, but according to wikipedia, you paid two sets of fees if you married in a chapel, so it was cheaper to marry in the cathedral. May have led people automatically to do baptisms there too?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Cathedral
Same story as James Holden, his father married the one who got pregnant first.
Now quite! Joseph jr (ie the one similar age to your Ellen) was married in 1845 and had several children with his wife by the time Joseph was born. I was just commenting both women were pregnant at roughly the same time in case anyone cared really!
He didn't manage a son with his wife until 1861 and that boy was named Joseph Henry.
I find myself assuming he is the father of your Joseph now. Should keep a more open mind!
Olde Crone
10-07-22, 09:41
Manchester Cathedral, and the church it was before it became a Cathedral, was a "peculiar" - it reported directly to the monarch and did not have the same rules and restrictions as the established church. This made it a very appealing venue for any scallywag or just those in a hurry, lol. It performed free marriages and free baptisms at various times of the year - Easter and Christmas especially.
Ellen's mother and sister lived in Ardwick, Manchester, Oldham was 8 miles away, so not an impossible journey even back then. My proven Whittakers lived in Harpurhey and Blackley and Oldham. It would be so neat if they were all related, lol.
Merry, I am pencilling in this information on my tree because as it stands, it is convincing and until it is proved otherwise, I am convinced! I remember getting to this stage many years ago with James Holden, being convinced I knew who his father was but just needing one last bit of evidence - and you provided it that time too! I thank you so much for your continued interest in my ramshackle family, lol.
OC
lol OC, you are welcome! If I look for someone else I don't have to do all that boring recording of the info!!
Olde Crone
10-07-22, 10:03
Haha! I'm trying to get Alexa to do the recording but she's pretending not to understand me.
OC
If that's your Joseph b 10 Aug 1854 then Ellen would have become pregnant in about Nov 1853.
Joseph's wife, Ann Cartwright, had a daughter registered in Q1 1853 and baptised in Cheetham in May 1853 and her name was Sarah Ellen!
I would imagine it was a relationship and not a one night stand that led to Joseph's birth (if we are right about the people, obviously) so maybe when Sarah was born her father was in the midst of his infatuation with Ellen and so gave her name to his legitimate child!
Olde Crone
10-07-22, 10:22
I wondered about the nature of the relationship before this - Ellen was 30 when Joseph was born, not a giddy young girl. I expect she got the push from the doctor's house when she was pregnant and I do wonder how she managed to survive AND hold onto her child for four years until she married James. She may have lived with her mother and sister I suppose.
Oh what a fool I am! I shall send for Joseph Whittaker's birth certificate, which will give me an address if nothing else. Such a shame that the local ROs no longer do historical certs because I have Ellen's signature somewhere for comparison.
Edit - I mean local ROw no longer enter into discussions about what type of certificate they send, lol, most are handwritten copies now, not photocopies of the originals.
OC
Olde Crone
10-07-22, 10:59
Birth cert ordered, download 15th! Watch this space.
OC
The grand prix is on the TV, so this is not my fault!....
I noticed that Wm and Cath Grimshaw seem to have lived at Milton St in Liverpool for a few years. All of these entries are from that address:
Jane bap 1828 St Peter
Daniel bap 1831 St Peter
Charles bap 1834 St Peter bur Feb 1837 St Martin in the Fields
There are no Grimshaws in Milton St in 1841 and as you've said before, your Grimshaws are all over the place at that date!
However, I didn't know if you had seen this?
There's a burial for a Nelson Grimshaw of Milton St who was buried 8 Oct 1837 aged 3 months at St Martin in the Fields, Liverpool. I looked for his birth reg and the one that came up had the wrong mmn and not in Liverpool:
GRIMSHAW, NELSON THERESA SHARP
GRO Reference: 1837 S Quarter in BURY UNION LANCASHIRE Volume 21 Page 223
so I was about to leave it, as I thought the family must have been new to Milton St in late 1837. However, I thought I should just see if this Grimshaw/Sharp family were from the IoM or anything. So, I looked for them in 1851 only to discover 1) not from IoM, but 2) their son Nelson was still alive!! So, I think there must have been two Nelson Grimshaws born around the same time, one in Bury who was registered for birth and lived until at least 1851 and another, not reg for birth, who died aged 3 months in Liverpool (no sign of a baptism unfortunately) and may be to do with your family.
Deaths Dec 1837
GRIMSHAW Nelson Liverpool 20 147
I am very vague on whether Wm and Cath had any daughters whilst they were still living on the IoM who could be old enough to be the mother of this child (or sons who might be the father of course!! not everyone is illegitimate :rolleyes::rolleyes:), or.... is Nelson a child of Catherine and hopefully William too? I was just thinking if Nelson is William's son then that reduces the frame for William's death by a bit :D
Olde Crone
10-07-22, 15:48
William died in 1839 I think, from memory, certainly before 1841. Ellen was the eldest girl in the family and could, I suppose, be the mother of Nelson. Jane was the only other girl and obviously not old enough to be the mother of Nelson.
I need to refresh my memory of what Ellen's brothers were up to at that point!
OC
William died in 1839 I think, from memory
Oooh, I didn't realise you had that!! lol :o
Olde Crone
10-07-22, 16:04
Nelson, son of James Grimshaw and Teresa Sharples, baptised at All Saints, Stand. James was church sexton. And Stand is where we found James Holden married to Ruth Patefield, grr, not that it's relevant of course!
There isn't a James Grimshaw in Ellen's immediate family and I've never managed to get a handle on the IoM Grimshaws who were few and far between.
OC
Yes, that's the child who is on the 1851 census with his parents, so not the one who was buried!
Olde Crone
10-07-22, 16:29
Hm. I have William Grimshaw's death as 12 May 1838, age 60. This information is from a letter now in the Manx museum, from William Sayle (brother of Catherine Grimshaw) to ???? The letter is in a vast collection of family correspondence, which is why the recipient isn't known, I think.I can only surmise the death wasn't registered.
There are one or two William Nelson Grimshaws lol, none born in Liverpool or anything like the right age.
OC
Well, there's a William Grimshaw buried 16 May 1838 in Liverpool, from Collingwood St, but he was only 44. That's quite close to Catherine's age though, isnt it? Seems a bit of a coincdence re the date.
Deaths Jun 1838
Grimshaw William Liverpool 20 302 aged 44
Olde Crone
10-07-22, 16:52
Yes, I saw that but didn't take in the date. Of course, if his dob was 1798, not 1778, it would be a better fit.......off to check where the dob comes from!
OC
Birth cert ordered, download 15th! Watch this space.
OC
Did it arrive?!
Olde Crone
17-07-22, 10:01
No Merry, not yet, I am beside myself with impatience and crossness - if I'd known it would take this long I would have ordered it from Manchester in the hope that I got a copy of Ellen's signature to compare. I don't think much of the PDF service at all and cannot understand the delay, not the instruction to add delivery time to the despatch date!
Meanwhile, my cousin has responded to my request for a birth date for Joseph, but as suspected, he doesn't have one. He is excited about this certificate and feels it is very likely to be him. He wonders about a dna test but I think we are both too distant from Joseph for it to be useful. Joseph only had one child who reproduced and my cousin doesn't think their descendants have any interest in this matter. (I see there is a tree on Geni for Joseph the bricklayer, with living descendants).
Idling around, I nearly had a heart attack when I found a marriage of a James Holden to an Ellen Grimshaw in 1836, lol. Took a glass of wine to help me realise that my James would only have been 11 and Ellen 15.
Patience is a virtue, so I'm told. Not convinced.
OC
Patience is a virtue, so I'm told. Not convinced.
OC
lol Hopefully it will appear soon!
Olde Crone
17-07-22, 11:04
While we wait, lol - re post #44 above - I've tracked down the source of that death date of "about 12th May". It is a letter from William Sayle of Larivane to "John" on 30th July 1838. It says "William Grimshaw of Liverpool is dead about 12 May". (Manx museum, collected diaries and papers of William Sayle, temperance worker)
I altered my previous birth date for William Grimshaw because I couldn't find a baptism that would fit with him being 66, although it doesn't feel right that he would be so much older than Catherine, who was only 17 at marriage. He was of full age at marriage. Mind you, there was a big fuss about getting permission from "those whom the law demands" for Catherine to marry him, so maybe he was a good but older?
OC
The age on his death cert and burial may be wrong if the person who dealt with these things was guessing.
Is the letter you mentioned this one?
http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/history/temprnce/ms00813c.htm
it doesn't mention Wm's age.
Olde Crone
17-07-22, 11:30
Yes, that's the one, lol.
No, it was me who decided he was 66 not 44 because I couldn't find a suitable baptism, but I'm going to change his birth year back again, to born about 1796. I've just found an updated site about the Grimshaws of Isle of Man, so there may be some new pickings to be had.
OC
I'm writing this here just in case, but it's only an idea at the moment.....
As I couldn't find a baptism in the IoM records for a William Grimshaw around 1793/4ish (44 by May 1838), I wondered if maybe the IoM connection was another generation back. I also thought it likely Wm's father might have a trade of some sort.
So......I was aware that your William had (amongst others) children named Daniel and Jane.....
There's this baptism:
William Grimshaw
b 27 Dec (1793) Baptism 9 Jan 1794 Liverpool, St Nicholas, Daniel
That's the transcript, but the image also has that Daniel was a tailor of Covent Garden, Liverpool. His wife was Jane and her maiden name was Jouhyn.
Siblings (I've not looked hard for these, so there may be more) bap in Liverpool:
Thomas 1780 << no sign of a burial before the other Thomas was baptised
Daniel 1781 (Grimsha)
Thomas 1785
John 1786
Robert 1888 (Grimsha)................bur 1790
Jane 1792 (this one was on FMP)..bur 1792
Jane 1796..................................bur 1796
I wasn't very consistant when I was looking at the images, but all those I saw had Daniel as a tailor and either Covent Garden or Chapel Street for abode and some included mother's maiden name as some version of Jouhyn.
There's this marriage:
Jane Jochin Marriage 13 Dec 1779 Liverpool, St Peter, Daniel Grimshaw
The image additionally gives both otp, marriage by banns, Daniel a tailor, Jane a spinster, he signed (spelled with the w on Grimshaw), she made her mark, witnesses were Thomas Cowell and James Hanna who both signed (both serial witnesses).
From memory, Daniel died in 1797 in Liverpool (was good for address and occupation). Not sure about Jane (thought she might have remarried given her young age and the ages of her children. Couldn't find a marriage for a widow though, or a death that worked)
Then back to the IoM records where there is:
05 Oct 1753 baptism at Ramsey for Jane Joughin, dau of Daniel Joughin (mother not recorded)
and
12 Dec 1756 baptism at Michael, Isle of Man for Danl Grimsha, son of Thomas Grimsha and Mary nee Croaghan
I wondered if Jane and her children might have gone back to the IoM after Daniel died as the children were all quite young (that's if any of these entries above jigsaw together in the way I imagine!). Of course that would be helpful as William married there, so presmably lived there in order to meet Catherine.
I've not looked for alternative futures for Daniel and Jane born on IoM!
Olde Crone
17-07-22, 18:20
My immediate thought is - why would all the sons of a tailor become shoe makers, lol.
I have seen that family, I think, on the Grimshaw site and no one has connected them to mmine, not that that means much. I'll have a look and be back in a few minutes.
OC
Olde Crone
17-07-22, 18:50
Well of course, I can't find them now, the search facility on the site doesn't work for me. I know I was several tailors mentioned, because the word tailor was misspelt!
Going back in....
why would all the sons of a tailor become shoe makers, lol.
lol well, I only know what happened to one son of the tailor if the baptism, which is good for date, belongs to your William. I've no idea about the other siblings.
Olde Crone
17-07-22, 19:24
It's tempting, I agree. Wish I could find the tailors, lol.
The site is "Grimshaw Origins". It is quite difficult to navigate, even though it is the new improved version, it isn't logically arranged.
OC
it isn't logically arranged
No! :rolleyes:
Do you remember the spelling they used for tailor? I was thinking if it was something unusual we might be able to find it? *hopes it wasn't taylor* lol
Olde Crone
17-07-22, 20:48
Tayler, I think, although I do wonder how much is just not being familiar with the writing.
Istr Manx notebooks being very useful years ago, but doesn't seem to have as much on it as I thought. I did find an old posting of mine though, still no reply after 15 years, lol.
OC
still no reply after 15 years
:d:d:d:d:d
Olde Crone
18-07-22, 16:16
PDF still not here!
OC
lol They obviously don't want you to see it!
Margaret in Burton
19-07-22, 10:28
PDF still not here!
OC
Have you contacted them to ask why?
ElizabethHerts
19-07-22, 10:30
OC, are you waiting for an email or are you signing in to the GRO website and looking at "View Recent Orders" (or both)?
One time, I didn't get an email but found the PDF was waiting for me.
Olde Crone
19-07-22, 16:39
Been out since the crack of dawn, raced home to find......nothing! Order is still in progress, this is the seventh full working day today. It says not to contact them till 5 working days have elapsed from the delivery date.
I am looking at the GRO site and my emails, so frequently in fact, that I now have a GRO shortcut on my dashboard!
OC
Olde Crone
20-07-22, 12:07
Still nothing. What could be the reason, I wonder? Covid? The weather? Climate change? The war in Ukraine? Brexit?
OC
Olde Crone
20-07-22, 16:46
Here it is!
Joseph, boy, born 51 Lisner (Limer?) St, Manchester, father Joseph Whittaker bricksetter, mother Ellen Whittaker formerly Grimshaw of 51 Lisner/Liner Street, Manchester. Ellen made her mark. (My Ellen could definitely read and write).
I can't find either Lisner Street or Limer Street!
OC
Olde Crone
20-07-22, 20:36
It's Limer Street. Someone has sent me a photo of the Spread Eagle pub which is/was on the junction of Rochdale Rd and Limer Street. Still can't find it on the map though!
I'm convinced this is my Joseph, but am I being too easily convinced!
OC
My Ellen could definitely read and write
That's a bit depressing then.
I've found Limer St Manchester on the 1851 census, but the odd numbers go through to number 49, then 'one empty house' and then Glover Street.
I looked through the surnames of people living in Limer St but nothing stood out except Samuel and Jannet Holden with children Sarah 6, Samuel 3 and Elizabeth 3mths at number 3.
In 1861 at 51 Limer St is:
Maria Hall head widow 53 with four children aged 7-23.
None of this is helping!!
Olde Crone
20-07-22, 21:09
I suppose though, if the registrar tells you to make your mark, you probably don't argue. I have seen that before, where I know that someone can definitely at least write their name. In later life, Ellen ran a small shop so must have been semi literate at least. Oh and I have just remembered, she signed her marriage cert, I have a photocopied entry of that.
Martha Hall means nothing to me but so what, lol. Ellen may have been lodging with her. Sam Holden doesn't ring any bells either.
OC
I agree about the signing issue.
Samuel Holden was b abt 1826/7 in Manchester, the son of Joseph Holden (from his 1844 marriage cert). They were both ropers.
If this Ellen Grimshaw isn't your Ellen then who is she?
Olde Crone
20-07-22, 21:52
Straw clutching here, but what were Maria Hall's children called? I've found a suitable marriage between George Hall and Maria Jackson - Ellen's sister Jane married a local Jackson. (Yeah, I know, I know!).
Yes, who else is this Ellen Grimshaw? We know that Joseph Whittaker the brickmaker was already married. We know that my Ellen Grimshaw had a son Joseph who does not appear to have been baptised or registered and there is a Joseph Whittaker who is baptised and registered but then disappears from all records. I'm convinced but is that because this has been niggling me for 22 years! (Ellen's later children were all promptly baptised and registered by her, she was very religious apparentl, so why would she leave out Joseph?)
OC
lol re the Jackson connection!
Maria Hall was from Ludlow in Shropshire, but when she was with her husband in 1851 she was from Sussex! Probably just because that's where he was from and she got dittoed! Unfortunately his name was Richard Hall. Their older children were born in Birmingham.
Olde Crone
21-07-22, 07:57
Ah well, thanks anyway. It was just straw clutching, as I said.
How did Ellen survive, I wonder? Did Joseph help her financially? I know she was living with her sister Jane by 1856, so maybe they lived together before that. Never going to know, am I!
I'm putting this in my tree because I'm convinced it's right. I can always take it out later if it's not, lol. Thank you so much for your hard work and your hunch on this. You really should be doing this for a living. I have learned two things from it, apart from the obvious.
1. (Which I knew already, but didn't apply that knowledge for 22 years) - a surname in the birth index doesn't indicate the surname someone used all their life!
2. Merry is in supernatural contact with at least two of my dead relatives.
OC
lol!!
*hastily tucks ouija board away before OC sees it* :D
Great grandma signed her name at marriage, but made her mark when my grandfather was born. It has always cast a pall of doubt over the certificate.
If I had the enthusiasm, I'd buy certificates for the siblings.
Olde Crone
21-07-22, 21:21
Again clutching at straws, but....
Joseph had five children, 2 Josephs (first one died)Henry, Ellen and Pamela. His wife's parents' names were Henry and Pamela, his mother's name was Ellen, leaving Joseph. OK, perhaps the first boy was named after him....or perhaps the boy was named after Joseph's birth father. Whatever, the first boy wasn't named after James, the man who brought him up. I always thought this was because he didn't like him, but perhaps he knew the truth all along.
OC
Olde Crone
12-08-22, 07:55
Merry
My cousin has sent me a link (without any comment!) to a tree on FMP. I don't have a sub to FMP, but the bit he has linked to appears to show an unmarried Ellen Grimshaw 1822 - 1888?
Edit, durh, it's the Thomas Jeffery Family Tree. Jeffery rings a bell, that name is on my cousin's side of the tree.
OC
I did a tree search on FMP for Ellen Grimshaw b 1822 and there was one match. However, I couldn't view the details because, "This matching person is currently private".
I tried adding Isle of Man for birthplace and the private entry still showed as a match, so that woud appear to be your Ellen.
I did (accidentally!) search b 1822 +/-2 years and another Ellen appeared, b 1821 in Ossett Lancs. The tree says she married James Atherton 15 Feb 1836 in Wigan Lancashire (so aged 15?) and had numerous children.
The marriage looks correct, but I found this Ellen with said husband and children in 1851 and Ellen and James on every census through to 1891 and on all of those she was b about 1817 in Orrell, Lancs. This is prob her:
Baptism: 24 Feb 1816 St Thomas, Upholland, Lancashire, England
Ellen Grimshaw - illegitimate daughter of Mary Grimshaw
Abode: Orrell
Baptised by: Jno. Bird
Register: Baptism 1813 - 1825, Page 78, Entry 624
Source: LDS Film 1657546
Olde Crone
12-08-22, 08:43
Thank you Merry, I'm fairly sure I investigated that one years ago and dismissed her for the same reasons you did.
I'll get back to my cousin but he has a much busier life than I do, so it could be weeks before he replies.
OC
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