Harriett Lamb and George Cooper

[ElizabethHerts]

This couple married by licence on 27th September 1814 at St Giles in the Field, London.

I haven't been able to find any children for them.

It appears that they were still in London in 1826 when Harriet's aunt Phebe Mallatratt wrote her will.

"I also give and bequeath to my nephew
Charles Lamb of Whitby in the County of York the second son of my said
sister Mary Lamb and to Harriott Cooper the wife of George Cooper of
London in the County of Middlesex and daughter of my sister Mary Lamb
aforesaid to each of them five pounds per annum to them and their heirs
Item I will and bequeath to James Lamb the youngest son of my sister
Mary Lamb the sum of five pounds five shillings in good and lawfull
money of Great Britain Item I give and bequeath to Mary Cooper widow
of the late Christopher Cooper of New Compton St London my plate
consisting of two table spoons seven tea spoons and a pair of sugar tongs"

I can't find when either Harriett/Harriott or George died. And were Christopher and Mary Cooper George's parents?

[kiterunner]

There is a George Cooper, son of Christopher and Mary, baptised 14 Feb 1791 at St Giles in the Fields, but the baptism record doesn't give any extra info to confirm it is the right George. From Googling, your Christopher Cooper was a grocer of 67 New Compton Street. I did find a British History Online page which says that New Compton Street was in St Giles in the Fields (footnote no 1):

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/survey-london/vols33-4/pp193-201

[Phoenix]

If Phebe is leaving annuities. you need to look at the death duty registers. That should show when they died. (She is spelled Mallatrat there)

[ElizabethHerts]

Thanks, Kate and Phoenix.

I've been trying to find wills for the Coopers but no luck yet.

[Merry]

I feel this is v likely to be a red herring, but am not having luck with eliminating these people, so I thought I'd put the details here as there's a good chance I shall see that are not yours as soon as I've typed this!

I can't stop looking at these two baptisms:

George Christopher Cooper
8 Jun 1828 Saint John and Saint Martin,Beverley,York George, Harriott

George senr is a clerk (in the regimental office? - the image is at FMP))

and this one:

Mary Ann Mopsa Cooper
30 Jan 1834 St Andrew, Holborn City of London George, Harriet

George is a lawyers clerk (LMA images).

I can't find what happened to any of these people or anything to give me any clues about them to eliminate them and it's driving me mad!!

[ElizabethHerts]

Thanks, Merry.

I've seen the Mopsa one but not the one at Beverley.
I'll have a look later.

[Merry]

Mary Ann Mopsa Cooper was born 15 Sep 1831 according to the baptism record.

Then there's this burial:

Mary Ann Cooper bur 09 Feb 1834 aged 3 at St Andrew's Holborn and the address given is the same as for the baptism, 8 Gray's Inn Lane.

[ElizabethHerts]

Thanks, Merry.

Harriet Cooper was also mentioned in the will of her sister Susanna Dexter of St Ives, Cambridgeshire in 1831.

Susanna Dexter late of St Ives in the County of Huntingdon Widow Deceased


"What wearing apparel I may have with the
little plate and other articles remaining, after
what I shall mention are disposed of – to be divided
between Mrs Beresford, William Lamb, & Harriet
Cooper my late sisters Children"

[ElizabethHerts]

I found a reference to Frederick Mallatratt here:

http://www.yorkfamilyhistory.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/YorkFHSIndextoJournalVol.15-2014.pdf

[ElizabethHerts]

Frederick left a will:

First name(s) Frederick
Last name Mallatrat
Year 1826
Date 1826, DEC
Place York
County Yorkshire
Country England
Court York Prerogative & Exchequer Courts
Court detail Prerogative Court of York
Document type Will
Document reference vol.174, f.383
Index reference 1823061826120209.tif/11
Document ordering http://www.york.ac.uk/borthwick/remote-services/copying/order-form/
Record set Prerogative & Exchequer Courts Of York Probate Index, 1688-1858
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Wills & Probate
Collections from Great Britain, England

[ElizabethHerts]

Susanna Dexter's will is contradictory.

"What little furniture I may have to be disposed
of and the produce with two pairs of sheets & some
few of my Linen and wearing apparel to be sent
to Whitby in Yorkshire for the use & Comfort
of my nephew Charles Lambs Widow, she being
left with eight children quite unprovided for -"

However, further down it clearly says:
"Signed this August 21st 1831".

This HAS to be incorrect.
Charles Lamb died on 3rd June 1832 at Abchurch-lane Hospital in London.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=QR2gAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA198&dq=%22Alexander+Tweedie%22+and+%221832%22+and+%22c holera%22+and+%22Lamb%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiF-4aS9-vjAhV8XRUIHZxVCaAQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=%22Alexander%20Tweedie%22%20and%20%221832%22%20a nd%20%22cholera%22%20and%20%22Lamb%22&f=false

For years we thought he had died by 1831 because of this will, until the article was found.

Susanna's will starts off OK, initially written in a clear yet messy hand. Then she appears to have made additions in her own untidy handwriting. One of those is as follows:

"July 15 86
I beg what Mr Partridge has in his
hands may be appropriated to returning
Miss Barnes & Mr Robt Hutchinson
& Mr Ashton what I have had of them since
I have been Mrs Beecheno

signed this August 21st 1831
S Dexter"

I'm not sure what the 86 (or 80) denotes. The layout is untidy.
I can only suppose she got the year wrong and it was 1832 or later. The wrapper of the will has other hand-written additions, one in her hand dated August 15th 1836.

Susanna Dexter was buried on 3rd February 1837 at St Ives, Huntingdonshire, and probate was granted on 11th February 1837.

[Merry]

I agree about the year, as I saw a death notice for Charles in the newspapers in June 1832.

Is 'Mrs Beecheno' to do with her executor, Richard Beecheno?

[ElizabethHerts]

I agree about the year, as I saw a death notice for Charles in the newspapers in June 1832.

Is 'Mrs Beecheno' to do with her executor, Richard Beecheno?

It's Richard Beecheno, Merry, yes, one of the Executors.

"St Ives Huntingdonshire
Feby 11th 1837
on which day appeared Samuel Dove Ullph Merchant and
Richard Beecheno, Draper, both of the Parish of Saint Ives
in the County of Huntingdon and being sworn on the Holy Evangelists
alleged and made oath as follows namely that they are the
Executors named in the last Will and Testament of Susanna
Dexter, Widow of the same Parish and County & that
the Goods Chattels & Credits of the said deceased did
not amount at the time of her death unto the sum of one
Hundred Pounds & that they the said Executors will return
a true Inventory unto Archdeaconry Court of Huntingdon
when by Law required

Samuel Dove Ullph
Richard Beecheno"

[Merry]

I've looked at all the Harri* entries on the 1851 census born in Hunt* of the right age, but none appear to be your Harriet. I am aware that Hunts, Herts, Hants and Heref are pretty interchangable in transcriptions, so that's not helping!

[ElizabethHerts]

Thanks for looking, Merry.

I even managed to interest OH this morning with the will of Susanna Dexter. :D

[Merry]

lol - these are his ancestors, are they not?!!

Where do his Lambs originate from?

[ElizabethHerts]

Yes, OH's ancestors. He is interested but he glazes over with too many details!

The earliest records of the Lambs are in Huntingdon.
George Lamb married Agnes Corbett in 1579.

The Lambs stayed in Huntingdon for a long time but Charles Lamb was obviously apprenticed as a gunsmith. He married Sarah Chambers in 1816 at Halesowen, Worcestershire, but she was from Birmingham.

The first children were born in Birmingham but then they went to Whitby.

[ElizabethHerts]

One thing he really enjoys is going around churches and looking at graves, so he is a willing escort. He finds going to Record Offices interesting up to a certain extent but hasn't got the same staying power as I do!

[garstonite]

Yes, OH's ancestors. He is interested but he glazes over with too many details!

The earliest records of the Lambs are in Huntingdon.
George Lamb married Agnes Corbett in 1579.

The Lambs stayed in Huntingdon for a long time but Charles Lamb was obviously apprenticed as a gunsmith. He married Sarah Chambers in 1816 at Halesowen, Worcestershire, but she was from Birmingham.

The first children were born in Birmingham but then they went to Whitby.

in case you don't have all the childrens names - of course the tree may be incorrect
George Lamb
Born in 1558 - Huntingdon, Huntingdonshire, UK
Deceased in 1621, aged 63 years old

Spouses and children
Married in 1579, Huntingdon, Huntingdonshire, UK, to Agnes Corbett 1562- with
F Anne Lamb 1580-
M Robert Lamb 1581-
F Elizabeth Lamb 1583-
F Isabel Lamb 1586-
F Alice Lamb 1588-
M William Lamb 1590-
F Christian Lamb 1592-
M John Lamb 1595-
F Anne Lamb 1598-
M Thomas Lamb 1602-

tree owner Suzanne Maitland - Wood :)

[garstonite]

Agnes Corbett
Born in 1562 - Bluntisham, Huntingdonshire, UK
Deceased

Parents
Henry Corbett 1526-
Elizabeth Whyte 1526-
Married in 1547, Bluntisham, Huntingdonshire, UK, to Elizabeth Whyte 1526- with
M Henry Corbett 1552-
F Agnes Corbett 1562-
F Elizabeth Corbett 1564-
M Thomas Corbett 1565-
M Edward Corbett 1566-

nothing on George - so it looks like Suzanne - the tree owner is from the Corbett side

[ElizabethHerts]

Thanks, Allan. I have these records as OH and I spent quite a few visits in the library at Huntingdon when they used to hold the original registers and bring them out for people to look at.

I also have the will George Lamb proved in 1621.

His son Robert Lamb married Susanna Cervington, whose family was linked with the Cromwells.

[Merry]

Charles Lamb was obviously apprenticed as a gunsmith. He married Sarah Chambers in 1816 at Halesowen, Worcestershire, but she was from Birmingham.


Yesterday I saw another thread (an old one) regarding the parentage of Sarah Chambers and the question of whether her bap was 1795 or 1796, one set of parents being Jos and Ann and the other Jos and Marg.

This is a bit tenuous, but I did notice there's an apprenticeship recorded for a Joseph Chambers in Birmingham dated 25 Nov 1786. His master was John Dawkes, gunsmith.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1851/images/32422_236922-00611?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=41de734245bf3b8a86d006d252fb8f9c&pId=701976

Having looked at the baptisms for the families of the two Joseph Chambers couples, the first child bap for Jos and Ann seems to be Sarah, in Feb 1796. The first for Jos and Marg seems to be John, in Aug 1790.

Joseph and Ann married in April 1795, both signing:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/4994/images/40458_316937-00335?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=41d7fafcf6a6275dd959869566650e2c&pId=3415135

Joseph and Marg married June 1790, both making their mark.

So, isn't it more likely your Joseph is the one who married Ann? Presumably he finished his apprenticeship which was probably seven years, before marrying. If either he didn't finish it (unlikely) or it was of shorter duration, he would have been quite young in 1790 assuming he was around 14 in 1786. Also I would imagine learning to be a gunsmith would mean you might be more likely to have learned to sign your name by the time you were married.

[ElizabethHerts]

Merry, thanks for looking at the Chambers family, a brick wall for me.

I always thought that Joseph's wife was Ann Tierbuck, but evidence is thin on the ground. She is entered in my tree.

Thanks for the apprenticeship; I didn't have that.

Charles Lamb's widow Sarah (Chambers) married again in 1842 and she obligingly tells us her father was Joseph Chambers, gunsmith.

We are about to go out so I won't be able to look at this again until later.
a

[ElizabethHerts]

By the way, one of the witnesses to the marriage of Charles Lamb and Sarah Chambers was Edward Chambers.

[Merry]

Yes, the apprenticeship being for a gunsmith is what made me think this must be Sarah's father.

I didn't come across any Edwards, but then I didn't come across any likely baptism for Joseph - I thought Edward might be his brother.

I did find a scenario where Joseph had died by 1817, but no time to type that now. Back later..........

[Merry]

I didn't get any further with this, having disproved my 1817 theory. I became distracted by a long list of "Runaway husbands" in the Birmingham papers in 1791. They sounded like a real motley crew!

I still think Ann Tierbuck must be the mother of your Sarah Chambers, as the other couple were married too early.

[ElizabethHerts]

Merry, I found this branch quite difficult to research. Joseph might not have been born in Birmingham. I have often wondered why Charles Lamb and Sarah Chambers married in Halesowen.

Ann Tierbuck appears to have been baptised on 27th March 1775 at St Martin's, Birmingham. Her parents were Joseph and Sarah Tierbuck. They married on the 20th July 1772 at St Martin's. Sarah's maiden name was Shuttleworth.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/4961/images/40458_316637-00064?pId=2255000
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/4994/images/40458_316637-00122?pId=52260145

[ElizabethHerts]

There is a Joseph Tirbuck, publican, in the Trade Directories in 1770:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/9859/person/432056049099/hints

[Merry]

Joseph might not have been born in Birmingham.

No, I agree. It would make sense for him to go there for his apprenticeship though.

I agree about, 'why Halesowen' unless Sarah had a job there, I suppose. I also wondered how far Edward had travelled to be a witness?

Some annoying county boundaries in this area!

[ElizabethHerts]

I have found some more Tierbuck/Tirebuck baptisms:

Mary 2 Aug 1773
Ann 27 Mar 1775
Thomas 29 Jul 1776
then a gap
Eleanor 13 Jun 1783
Charlotte 26 Sep 1787
Julia Maria 2 Jan 1794

All at St Martin's, parents Joseph and Sarah.

There is a burial for a Joseph Tierbuck on 11 May 1778 - no indication of age.

[ElizabethHerts]

I have just ordered two wills from Whitby Museum - £5 for both!

[Merry]

A bargain!

[ElizabethHerts]

I just hope they are in OH's tree.

His 4x-great-grandmother was Jemima Duck of Whitby who married Christopher Kingston. I have just ordered a couple of Duck wills.

I love Jemima's name! Very Beatrix Potter.

[Merry]

re Tierbuck:

then a gap

Sarah Tierbuck 27 Jul 1778 St. Martin, Birmingham, Warwick, Joseph and Sarah

Joseph Tierbuck 28 Dec 1779 Saint Martin, Birmingham,Warwick, Joseph and Sarah

Susanna Tirebuck 1 Oct 1781 St. Martin, Birmingham, Warwick, Joseph and Sarah

also:

Elizabeth Tirebuck 12 Sep 1785 St. Martin, Birmingham, Warwick, Joseph and Sarah

Matthew Turbuck 19 Oct 1790 Saint Martin, Birmingham,Warwick, Joseph and Sarah



I don't know if it's a coincidence, but there's a Joseph in London, marrying Grace Drew in 1806:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/61867/images/61865_314054001181_17905-00201?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=psY28696&_phstart=successSource&pId=711336

Two of their three children (EDIT 4 children - one bap is in Westminster listings) show occ of father at their baptisms - gunmaker or similar.

Joseph died in 1815 aged 35, so b abt 1779/80:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2972/images/40612_B0151301-00207?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=b31bf05a414cb7b2b860b27aa9a1fc71&pId=1622049

and his will gives his occ as gun maker:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5111/images/40611_311092-00254?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=fc49642681a8f0d31c42abda8a4bee9b&pId=356552


Grace went on to remarry to widower Mark Unwin in 1827:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1623/images/31281_a100851-00030?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=6eec64406a068c632d6ba4f9761e10b4&pId=1433465

Looks like they had one child bap before the marriage:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/1558/?name=_unwin&count=50&father=mark&father_x=1&mother=grace&mother_x=1&pcat=34&viewMode=category&qh=146b2a292c28311cda38a388f287c24b

Ooo, no, maybe not as there's a Mark Unwin marrying another Grace in 1825:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1623/images/31280_199020-00482?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=b631480d2e6207b512cfde21a3b3ac59&pId=4168265

That's what comes of getting complacent because the name combinations seem uncommon!!

There's only one obvious death though, so I'm wondering if there's any mystery or just that I've not looked thoroughly!

Grace Unwin Burial abt 1784 5 Dec 1847 St Mary, Islington, Islington

I think that's the right Grace as this is her in 1841 with two of her sons from her first marriage:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8978/images/MDXHO107_707_708-0683?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=15338093

Of course I didn't think to see if there's an alternative route forward for your Birmingham-born Joseph as I was too busy with this one!!

[Merry]

There's only one Mark Unwin dying - in 1827. His will has wife Grace and that he is a bricklayer, which was the occ mentioned on the 1825 marriage (I think).

No time to look further....

[ElizabethHerts]

Merry, I've found more Tierbuck baptisms, all mistranscribed, filling in the gaps.

I've got a visitor coming very soon so I'll get back to this after lunch.

Thanks for looking!

[Merry]

This is the same Joseph (1879-1815). He was of "60 Haymarket" in the paper: 03 March 1814 - Morning Post - London, London (Tirebuck):

https://www.garthvincent.com/a-16-bore-flintlock-officers-pistol-by-tirebuck-of-london%2C-circa-1800.-1548/

[ElizabethHerts]

This is the same Joseph (1879-1815). He was of "60 Haymarket" in the paper: 03 March 1814 - Morning Post - London, London (Tirebuck):

https://www.garthvincent.com/a-16-bore-flintlock-officers-pistol-by-tirebuck-of-london%2C-circa-1800.-1548/

How amazing, Merry.

In 2020, OH's second cousin bought the following:

A Pair Of 25-Bore Flintlock Brass-Barrelled Travelling Pistols
By C. Lamb, Whitby, Circa 1825
With octagonal sighted barrels each signed along the top flat and with platinum-lined touch-hole, border engraved tangs engraved with foliate scrolls, signed border engraved case-hardened flat locks each decorated with a starburst behind the semi-rainproof pan and with foliage at the tail, foliate engraved cocks, safety-catches and rollers, figured full stocks each with dark horn fore-end cap and chequered rounded butt, the latter with white-metal lion-mask butt-cap, white-metal trigger-guards each with pineapple finial and foliate scrollwork on the border engraved bow, vacant white-metal escutcheons and barrel-bolt escutcheons, stirrup ramrods, and in fine untouched condition, Birmingham proof marks (2)
10.2 cm. barrels
For further information on this lot please visit the Bonhams website

Provenance
Charles Lamb is recorded at Axtergate (Baxtergate), Whitby, Yorkshire in 1827


He paid £3,812.

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25976/lot/325/

[ElizabethHerts]

Re. Joseph Tirebuck of London.

Joseph Tierbuck baptised 28 Dec 1779 St Martin's Birmingham
parents Joseph and Sarah

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=fEH1264&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&dbid=4961&gsfn=Joseph&gsln=*buck&cp=0&msbdy=1779&new=1&rank=1&uidh=9p3&redir=false&msT=1&gss=angs-d&pcat=34&fh=0&h=2254134&recoff=&ml_rpos=1&queryId=43eb3a09aabb90cc7046fa2cb923cc72

Could this be him?

[ElizabethHerts]

First name(s) Joseph
Last name Tirebuck
Age 35
Birth year 1780
Death year 1815
Death date ? ? 1815
Burial year 1815
Burial date 23 Apr 1815
Place -
Denomination Dissenters
County London
Country England
The National Archives reference TNA/RG/4/3993
Description LONDON: Bunhill Field's Burial Ground, City Road: Burials.
Record set England & Wales Non-Conformist Burials
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Burials
Collections from Great Britain, England

The age ties up.

[Merry]

Re. Joseph Tirebuck of London.

Joseph Tierbuck baptised 28 Dec 1779 St Martin's Birmingham
parents Joseph and Sarah

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=fEH1264&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&dbid=4961&gsfn=Joseph&gsln=*buck&cp=0&msbdy=1779&new=1&rank=1&uidh=9p3&redir=false&msT=1&gss=angs-d&pcat=34&fh=0&h=2254134&recoff=&ml_rpos=1&queryId=43eb3a09aabb90cc7046fa2cb923cc72

Could this be him?

Yes, that's what I was asking you in post #34!! I think, given his name does really seem to be Tierbuck or Tirebuck and not a variant of Tarbuck which is more common, and given the occ and age etc, he may well be.

[ElizabethHerts]

Thanks for your help, Merry.

1763 will for Joseph Tirebuck of Hanbury.

First name(s) Joseph
Last name Tirebuck
Year 1763
Will year 1760
Probate year 1763
Parish Hanbury
Place Hanbury, Staffordshire, England
County Staffordshire
Country England
Series description Registered wills and original wills, administrations and inventories, 1494-1860, and, act books, 1532-1638 for Diocese of Lichfield Episcopal Consistory Court
Piece description Original wills, administrations, inventories
Piece surname range Q-Z
Piece year range 1763
Record set Staffordshire, Dioceses Of Lichfield And Coventry Wills And Probate 1521-1860
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Wills & Probate
Collections from England, Great Britain

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBPRS%2FSTAFF%2FWILLS%2F417887

I wonder if this is Joseph senior's father? He mentions a son Joseph.

[Merry]

Could be. There look to be lots of clues in the will to help identify other family members and maybe join them up.

[Merry]

Widow Grace Tirebuck went on to remarry to widower Mark Unwin in 1827:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1623/images/31281_a100851-00030?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=6eec64406a068c632d6ba4f9761e10b4&pId=1433465

Looks like they had one child bap before the marriage:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/1558/?name=_unwin&count=50&father=mark&father_x=1&mother=grace&mother_x=1&pcat=34&viewMode=category&qh=146b2a292c28311cda38a388f287c24b

Ooo, no, maybe not as there's a Mark Unwin marrying another Grace in 1825:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1623/images/31280_199020-00482?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=b631480d2e6207b512cfde21a3b3ac59&pId=4168265

That's what comes of getting complacent because the name combinations seem uncommon!!

There's only one obvious death though, so I'm wondering if there's any mystery or just that I've not looked thoroughly!

Grace Unwin Burial abt 1784 5 Dec 1847 St Mary, Islington, Islington

I think that's the right Grace as this is her in 1841 with two of her sons from her first marriage:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8978/images/MDXHO107_707_708-0683?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=15338093

Of course I didn't think to see if there's an alternative route forward for your

No conspiracy! Grace Westlake/Unwin and her daughter Lydia Unwin were both buried in 1827. They are listed in the England & Wales, Non-Conformist and Non-Parochial Registers, 1567-1936 on Ancestry.

The will for bricklayer, Mark Unwin mentions his wife Grace and also the late Mrs Unwin, mother of Elizabeth Westlake, so there is only the one Mark Unwin and he married two women called Grace! What are the chances!!