ellen sherlock b 1905 Everton,Liverpool

[garstonite]

Hi - a little complicated
Ellen Sherlock b 1905 - family lived in 87 Rylan Street Everton,Liverpool
parents Joseph SHerlock and Ruth Ryder Sutcliffe - they had 6 children in all.
.................................................. ............
1936 Ellen gives birth on 6th March to a girl
Birth Certificate states
A M Moles - daughter - Father Joseph Moles - mother Ellen Moles - nee Sherlock
....... Father Joseph Moles - Dock Labourer deceased
....
so - I can't find NO MARRIAGE - and NO DEATH for Joseph Moles 1935-36
I am convinced Ellen - who obviously registered the baby - told lies - the baby was adopted 5 weeks later and I have her new Birth Certificate in her new name ...
So - am I right in thinking I might find Ellen Sherlock in Liverpool - or Birkenhead area in 1939 register - or could she just assume the name Ellen Moles .
the only 2 Joseph Moles I can find the right age are
born West Ham 1905 - marries West Ham 1934 to Diana Morrison
born Islington 1906 - no marriage
so
did Joseph Moles b 1905 come to Liverpool a year after he married and have a child with Ellen Sherlock and Ellen made up the marriage and his death ?
any help appreciated
had me up all night ...lol

[Merry]

the baby was adopted 5 weeks later and I have her new Birth Certificate in her new name ...

Two questions, before I read this properly!

1) Is the lady b 1936 still living and is she happy for this thread?

2) Do you think it wold be better on Sensitive Research so the details won't be picked up by Google? I can move the thread...

[ElizabethHerts]

1939 Register

Joseph Sherlock M 7 Feb 68 W Retired Heating Engineer
Ellen Sherlock F 6 Nov 05 S Cashier Book Keeper Clothing
Eveline Sherlock F 20 Sep 98 S Dressmaker

42 Liverpool Road South, Maghull, West Lancashire R.D., Lancashire

[Merry]

Yes, I found the same 1939 Reg entry. Her dob is also on her baptism at St Saviour's Everton.

[Merry]

Is there an address for the birth on the original cert?

[garstonite]

Is there an address for the birth on the original cert?

Thanks Merry - I have it in front of me - it states

Joanne Skerries co Dublin - A A FINCH - present at birth
139 Hallgrove Road

I don't know if she was born on a crossing from Dublin to Liverpool ??? baffles me
No Hallgrove road in Liverpool
there is a Hall Grove Road in Dublin - quite frankly the writing on the original birth cert is abysmal - the girl was born 6th March - the certificate issued 2nd April - as far as adopted at 5 weeks - that is what her 2 daughters are telling me - might not be a fact .
Garston has its market every Friday - and the girls call in for a drink after shopping - they are 66 and 62 - I will see them around 1130 later - as I say they have given me BOTH Birth certs
I don't now if this is relevant - I think they are the dates that their mum applied for her birth certs
original birth name and parents 2nd february 1978
changed name / adoption 11th October 1971 - I don't think their mum is alive - I will check later .
I appreciate your help - I have gone back to 1802 in Liverpool to George Sherlock with Ellen Sherlocks family - easy for me - all on Lan-opc

ADDED- that might say to Dublin and not co Dublin ??

[Merry]

I presume you have something to demonstrate the birth mother is this Ellen in particular?

[Phoenix]

Her father, and her daughter's father are both called Joseph. This suggests that Ellen was caught on the spot, and couldn't think of a name for the father, rather than that was his real name. (In a similar circumstance, I've seen a woman name her brother, who I'm fairly sure was not the father)

[Merry]

I'm still wondering how you know this Ellen b 1905 was the mother and not another Ellen Sherlock. Having said that, I do agree with Phoenix's comment about her using her father's first name for her baby's father, but I still want to be sure you have the right mother!!

[Phoenix]

Thanks Merry - I have it in front of me - it states

Joanne Skerries co Dublin - A A FINCH - present at birth
139 Hallgrove Road



Is this an Irish birth certificate?

[Merry]

Phoenix, the reg is in Liverpool District.

Allan, if the informant is A A Finch, who is Joanne Skerries?

[garstonite]

Is this an Irish birth certificate?

No - Wavertree District Liverpool

Ellen( nee SHERLOCK )Moles is the mother of A M Moles born 6th March 1936 .
but there is no marriage between Ellen Sherlock and Joseph Moles - and Joseph Moles is Dock Labourer deceased on the cert - but there are no deaths for Joseph Moles in 1935 or 1936 ..so obviously lies - I knew her dad was Joseph - but never clicked she may have used Joseph as the father - that makes sense

[Merry]

Yes, but how do you know Ellen Sherlock is the woman born in 1905 in West Derby district?

[Merry]

Skerries is a town near Dublin, so is Joanne Skerries not a person, but an address? In what column does this info appear?

[Merry]

There's a marriage of a John Moles to an Ellen Sherlock in 1927 in Ireland. The couple give Skerries as their address.

[Merry]

There's a death for a John Moles aged 28, in the same irish reg district as the marriage, in 1931. There are only two Irish birth registrations for children of this couple, both before 1931.

[Merry]

I'm imagining the bio father's first name was Joseph and Ellen was a widow, her late husband being John Moles.

So, do you have any proof the mother is the 1905 English Ellen?!!

[Merry]

The Ellen Sherlock who married John Moles in Ireland is most likely Ellen Sherlock b Skerries 19 Aug 1904. She has the same father's details as on the marriage cert and is also on the 1911 Irish census. She is about the same age as John Moles, if he is her husband.

I can put up some images or you can look yourself here:

https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/

Civil Record Search.

Oh, I could look to see if that Ellen remarried after her husband's death. That would possibly eliminate her!

[Merry]

Hmmm...this Ellen died 4 May 1959 in Skerries.

[Merry]

I'm trying to fathom a way this entry was registered in Liverpool!

Which bit of the info appears in column 1?

[ElizabethHerts]

The Ellen Sherlock born 6 November 1905 dies a spinster in Dec 1997 in Sefton North, according to Ancestry. Aged 92.

[Merry]

I was bothered that the mother was born in 1905 and was having an illegitimate child when aged over 30. Not at all impossible of course; one of my aunties did exactly that in the same era, but still it's less usual than a younger woman. However, the idea that a widow might become pregnant in her 30s seems more plausible and also this Skerries business on the birth cert implies an Irish connection.

Skerries does not appear to be a surname at all, looking at the English/Welsh and Irish GRO indexes! So, I'm thinking Joanne Skerries is an address in Skerries!

[garstonite]

There's a marriage of a John Moles to an Ellen Sherlock in 1927 in Ireland. The couple give Skerries as their address.

Well I didn't expect that -

1911 census has Joseph and Ruth and all the children together

so it is not Joanne in front of Skerries - it really is bad writing
all that info is in the column occupation of father .
so do you think Ellen left Liverpool to go over to Dublin and marry John Moles - John died and she came back home with the baby - or are you thinking it is a different Ellen Sherlock ? the 2 sisters DID SAY they thought she was Irish .
what A FOOL i HAVE BEEN ?? BACK TO 1802 WITH THE WRONG FAMILY PROBABLY ...**** at this me ...lol

[kiterunner]

Allan, what does it say in the "when and where born" column?

[garstonite]

Hmmm...this Ellen died 4 May 1959 in Skerries.
Merry - Elizabeth - you are good - just spoke to the sisters
Ellen - they are convinced was Irish
John died - Ellen became pregnant
came to Liverpool to have the baby and Johns family didn't know about the baby
that address is not Hall Grove Road - but Waldgrove Road - in Wavertree Liverpool - they are convinced Ellen went back home to Skerries - so it looks like you are spot on - they want to know -Ellen married 1927 to John Moles - THEIR MUM IS DEAD - DIED YOUNG - Alice Mary Moles born 6th March 1936 - 9 years after the marriage - did John and Ellen have any other children in those 9 years ???

[kiterunner]

We can't post details of any other children born to John and Ellen in case they are still living, Allan, but could send details in a PM.

[kiterunner]

Allan, I have sent you a PM with info about 2 births.

[Phoenix]

what A FOOL i HAVE BEEN ?? BACK TO 1802 WITH THE WRONG FAMILY PROBABLY ...**** at this me ...lol


I doubt whether there is anyone on these boards who hasn't done the same. And I have one or two lines where I still have secret niggles.

[garstonite]

Allan, what does it say in the "when and where born" column?

Sorry Kate - I have just given them the 2 birth certificates back ??
so can't remember :o:o

[Merry]

I still have the images in front of me for Ellen Sherlock birth cert, Ellen S and John Moles marriage cert and death certs for them both. It would be easier to email them to you than post them on this board, if you haven't yet seen them. Is your email still your name and then btinternet.com?

[Merry]

I'm pretty sure this is the woman who married John Moles on the Irish 1911 census with her parents:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000003860/

[garstonite]

I still have the images in front of me for Ellen Sherlock birth cert, Ellen S and John Moles marriage cert and death certs for them both. It would be easier to email them to you than post them on this board, if you haven't yet seen them. Is your email still your name and then btinternet.com?
Yes Merry - Thanks very much - I can then forward it on to the sisters - brilliant ...cheers - Allan :)

[Merry]

Ok I'll send them later as I'm out now.

[garstonite]

Thanks Merry - your a star hun xx

[Anstey Nomad]

Don't sweat it Allan.

I spent thirty years researching one line, painstakingly, generation by generation, and then got my DNA results!

Down the snake and start again