View Full Version : advice please
garstonite
10-05-22, 06:09
Good Morning
my Grandad died Dec qtr 1957 - I was 6 - his name Daniel Oakes Liverpool South
MY G Grandmother died Sep qtr 1958 again Liverpool South - Zipporah McNamara
as I was so young I have never really thought about it until now - were they Cremated at Allerton Crematorium - or Buried there ??
I have searched Find a grave - no results for either
Where should I look to find out if either were buried - if they were ,I would like to visit their grave - I am only 2 mile from Allerton Cemetery and Crematorium
appreciate any advice
cheers
Allan
This is from Ancestry, England & Scotland, Select Cemetery Registers, 1800-2016:
Name: Zipporah McNamara
Age: 82
Record Type: Burial
Birth Date: abt 1876
Death Date: abt 1958
Burial Date: 11 Aug 1958
Burial Place: Merseyside, England
Cemetery: West Derby Cemetery
Cemetery Section: Church of England
So, not Allerton. I've not found anything for Daniel yet.....
Re Zipporah, you can contact the authorities, see below, with her name and burial date and they should be able to tell you her burial plot details (even if it is unmarked):
https://liverpool.gov.uk/births-marriage-deaths/deaths/burials-and-cremations/cemeteries-and-crematoria/west-derby-cemetery/
Note on the same page there is a link to a map of the cemetery.
They may be able to help with your grandfather too, though they might want his date of death, not just the quarter. It would probably depend on whether their records are all on computer for all the possible places he may have been taken, or not! I'll have another look for him in a minute.
Do you know what happened to his wife?
garstonite
10-05-22, 07:04
Thanks so very much Merry - I wonder why West Derby Cemetery when all our family are in Allerton ??...Her Husband Dennis McNamara was from Edge Hill,Liverpool - not Garston - I wonder if she is in with Dennis ?? West Derby Cemetery is about 6 miles from where I live - I will have to try and find the plot number - thanks again ....xx
Is this Daniel's wife?
Name: Martha Oakes
Age: 56
Record Type: Burial
Birth Date: abt 1893
Death Date: abt 1949
Burial Date: 30 Dec 1949
Burial Place: Merseyside, England
Cemetery: Allerton Cemetery
You might think he should be in the same place, so I will have another look.....
garstonite
10-05-22, 07:16
My Nanny Oakes - born Martha Walker died dec qtr 1949 in Liverpool South - I was born Jan 1951 so never knew her - again ,I have no idea if she was cremated or buried - you have me thinking now though - my grandad Daniel Oakes re married to Emily Gladys Ferman - also her 2nd marriage - in 1955 - it is possible she put him in with her first husband ??? but I can't see my dad and his 3 siblings being happy with that ?
garstonite
10-05-22, 07:21
Is this Daniel's wife?
Name: Martha Oakes
Age: 56
Record Type: Burial
Birth Date: abt 1893
Death Date: abt 1949
Burial Date: 30 Dec 1949
Burial Place: Merseyside, England
Cemetery: Allerton Cemetery
You might think he should be in the same place, so I will have another look.....
Fantastic Merry - you are a star - my mate in the pub is a grave digger at Allerton - he will find out Nanny Oakes's plot number for me - you have made my day - I go to my mum/dad/brother and other g grandmother grave on Birthdays - mothers day - fathers day and Xmas - All in the same grave - I will now be able to go to my nans grave as well - my mate should be able to tell me who is in with Martha Oakes shouldn't he ??
There's an image for Martha's record:
England & Scotland, Select Cemetery Registers, 1800-2016
Burial reg no. 69365 division General (others have a deomination here, C of e, RC etc)
Martha Oakes
bur 30th Dec 1949
married woman aged 56
address 33 Moss St, Liverpool 19
Private Grave Order 66114
Section 13 grave 187
ceremony performed by G Reginald Lindsay
I looked again for Daniel, but still didn't find anything. Does anyne have his exact date of death? There are images for the majority of people at Allerton, but too many to look through without at least a death date!
I did look in 1957 and 1958 in case he was buried in Jan 1958.
Oh, do you want the burial details for the other Daniel Oakes who died in 1956? Was he an uncle of your grandfather?
garstonite
10-05-22, 07:35
Oh, do you want the burial details for the other Daniel Oakes who died in 1956? Was he an uncle of your grandfather?
NO IDEA who that is ? .lol - is he South Liverpool ? and does it have an age for him ? I will check my tree in case I have missed that other Daniel Oakes - doesn't ring a bell
There's a thread on here where you are asking for his death details! He was born about 1880.
Oooh, I still had the thread open:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showthread.php?p=119732&highlight=daniel+oakes+death#post119732
garstonite
10-05-22, 07:41
well Merry - my Grandads Uncle - Daniel Oakes born 1879 Garston - just checked my tree - one of 10 children - so he was 77 when he died and I was 5 ...I have vague memories of an "Uncle Danny " who had a parrot that used to land on my head and scare the living daylights out of me - he lived in a ground floor flat ...very vague - but it must be him
garstonite
10-05-22, 07:46
There's a thread on here where you are asking for his death details! He was born about 1880.
Oooh, I still had the thread open:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showthread.php?p=119732&highlight=daniel+oakes+death#post119732
Right - yes I remember well now - he lost his 3 children in the War - had a very sad life ... yes please Merry if you can find out any info for him - his wife was Lucy Oakes and she died in 1955
So the older Daniel was bur at Allerton Cemetery, 10 Aug 1956 division C of E. He lived at 46 Shirley Road, Liverpool 19 and was bur in grave 79323 section 11 grave 70.
You can get maps here:
https://toxtethparkcemetery.co.uk/home/allerton-cemetery/allerton-cemetery-grave-maps/
Make sure you choose General division or C of E division, dependng on which grave you are looking for as the maps for the sections may differ. For me the maps won't expand enough to see them properly, but maybe if you save to your computer you may be able to enlarge them!
None of which helps with your grandfather.....
Name: Lucy Jane Oakes
Age: 74
Record Type: Burial
Birth Date: abt 1881
Death Date: abt 1955
Burial Date: 11 Mar 1955
Burial Place: Merseyside, England
Cemetery: Allerton Cemetery
There's no image for hers unfortunately.
I looked for your grandfather on Ancestry trees, but though there were a lot of tress including him, none had a date of death, just the registration details.
If the transcriptions were done from the film of the records for Allerton then, having looked at the start of Oct 1957 I can see there are pages missing. eg page 55 is followed by page 59. If there is this gap there are probably others, so that could be why we can't find Daniel.
You could get lucky if either Martha's grave has a stone that mentions him too, or of the cemetery records people can tell you if anyone else was buried in Martha's grave. Anything more and you might need his death cert to get an idea of when he was buried to make the search easier!
garstonite
10-05-22, 08:10
46 Shirley Road - the Posh half of Garston ..lol... Thanks very much Merry - I now have 2 graves to visit tomorrow - weather permitting - top top research and very much appreciated xxxx
46 Shirley Road - the Posh half of Garston ..lol...
lol they had been there since at least 1930! (erolls)
garstonite
10-05-22, 08:38
As you enter Allerton Cemetery there is a map about 10-12 ft square of the sections - it is very well organised and a HUGE Cemetery with a lovely little Chapel right in the middle xx
Good luck then. I hope there's no rain forecast!
garstonite
10-05-22, 09:41
Well - that was interesting - my Sister in Law said on the phone - "your dad used to say - my dads grave is over there ( Daniel Oakes died 1957 )..My sister in Law asked - "don't you visit his grave Les ?" -My dad said " NO - He was nothing but a Drunken Bully "
SO - Daniel is in Allerton somewhere - I didn't know my dad thought about my grandad like that ...now I do - didn't know my grandad was like that - just shows you
garstonite
10-05-22, 09:53
My eldest brother aged 76 is going tomorrow - and I am going with my youngest brother on Thursday - my eldest brother was almost 4 when my Nanny Oakes died and remembers her fondly - He never said as much - but I think he wants to be the first to visit her grave ...
I expect Daniel Oakes' entry is on one of the pages missed by Ancestry, or whoever it was who filmed the register book and kelp turning more than one page at a time (maybe they were wanting to go home at the end of a long day?!!)
When your dad said his father's grave was 'over there' do you know where he was standing?!! Maybe you can find it. I think it would be nice to see it once even if he wasn't the best father/grandfather. :o
garstonite
10-05-22, 11:09
He was going to my mum and brothers grave - the right is c of e - the left is RC so he has nodded to the right - my brother is going to look tomorrow for Marthas grave - Daniels first wife - I have a feeling Daniel is in with her ..i will let you know ..
A bit off topic, but it’s a pity you don’t have place of burial on the death certs. It makes it so much easier.
garstonite
10-05-22, 11:36
Libby - if only -
He was going to my mum and brothers grave - the right is c of e - the left is RC so he has nodded to the right - my brother is going to look tomorrow for Marthas grave - Daniels first wife - I have a feeling Daniel is in with her ..i will let you know ..
You have the ref for Martha's upthread, so hopefully not too difficult to find, though I have to say I have always found it very tricky even with an exact number!
I see Daniel was in the merchant navy for WW1. Maybe this experience affected him, if he became a drunken bully?
garstonite
10-05-22, 13:10
Daniel waS also in the Army in WW1 - WHEN HE JOINED HE WAS ONLY 15 /16 - THEY FOUND OUT AND THREW HIM OUT
SO
My dads brother was Daniel born 1922 - died 2002
his eldest son is till alive age 76 -
my brother went to the Cemetery earlier and found Daniel b 1922 youngest son - John Christopher Oakes died 1996 grave
My brother rang the elder brother to ask if John is in with Martha - and he replied NO - My mum and dad are both in with MARTHA ..
SO - He is meeting me on Thursday to take me to Marthas grave which also has Daniel Oakes and Edith Oakes in it as well
a success story - AND My eldest brother and Youngest brother are coming along too - so Martha will have 4 of her Grandsons at her grave Thursday - a most successful Day - THANKS Merry ...you little Beautie ...xxx
lol No worries Allan. Enjoy your visit to the cemetery!
I'm just off to visit various family graves at our local cemetery, armed with cleaning and gardening equipment as the council seem to have forgotten all about the place since the pandemic began.
Libby - if only -
Is there a reason you don’t have it on the cert. Ours has had it forever and I don’t think it’s caused any issues.
It's probably down to the order in which the information is processed, Libby. Today, there can be nearly a month between death and the disposing of the body. (I think my aunt is still in sib's garage, two years after her death)
It's probably down to the order in which the information is processed, Libby. Today, there can be nearly a month between death and the disposing of the body. (I think my aunt is still in sib's garage, two years after her death)
Okay. We have a doctor’s cert to say the person is dead. It is a very basic thing that most people never see, as it only states the person’s name and when they died. It probably now has an identifying Medicare number or something similar. That is given to the funeral director just to say the person is actually dead. Then the next of kin or family fills in the death cert with the info they know…….name, dates, parents’ names, spouse’s name/s, childrens’ names and ages, etc. Then after that is given to the funeral director, they fill in the funeral and burial details and it is then filed with the registry office.
I presume it’s not your aunt’s body, rather her ashes??? In that case, the cremation details would be on the death cert. If you were looking to see where the ashes are, you could ring the crematorium and they would tell you it was with family.
Is there a reason you don’t have it on the cert. Ours has had it forever and I don’t think it’s caused any issues.
The main reason for the introduction of civil death registration via the 1836 Registration Act was to enable further study on the causes of mortality. There was no need to record where the person was buried because that was of no interest to the authorities and as there was already quite a public outcry in many quarters against interference by the state in what was seen as a private matter, I expect it seemed sensible to keep the number of questions to a minimum.
Also, civil registration came in very shortly after the notoriety of Burke and Hare. I cannot imagine that the demand of the medical schools would have decreased, and there would have been a huge stigma if a certificate you might need for various purposes indicated that a body had been used to further medical science.
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