Help - DNA match and a Wingfield conundrum again

[maggie_4_7]

This another long story sorry, but I have put everything I know because I know it's frustrating to find stuff only to then find out I already knew or had it.

I have a DNA match on Ancestry of:
Shared DNA:*30 cM*across*2 segments
Unweighted shared DNA:*44 cM
Longest segment:*36 cM

I know it's low but I am interested because I think the match is a Wingfield and I have some mysteries of missing siblings, which I find so frustrating, of my 2nd Great Grandmother Emma Wingfield. Its the only name I recognise in the the tree of this DNA match.

Note: this possible match is named Emma Wingfield too, spelt Winfield on trees.

The children's relationship on the 1881 census is complicated because Pierce was married before which a lot of trees with this couple does not show and the ones I have looked at stop at Emma nothing before her marriage.

Emma married Pierce Patrick Driscoll in 1879. Pierce died in 1885

Marriage

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8913&h=8364823&tid=12020109&pid=310007030181&queryId=af89ffa12575ec8772aff8855b38443e&usePUB=true&_phsrc=IeP9890&_phstart=successSource

Death of Pierce (father)

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8914&h=9812896&ssrc=pt&tid=12020109&pid=310007030181&usePUB=true&_gl=1*y8jlwk*_ga*Njg2NDU4ODQ3LjE2NDcyODAxMTQ.*_ga_ 4QT8FMEX30*MTY1MTI5Njc4NS4yLjEuMTY1MTMwMTcyOS4w

It was a Roman Catholic marriage, Pierce's heritage is Irish, no full cert online so I sent for the certificate to see what Emma put for father's name.

It has John Wingfield occupation; Provisions Dealer. Could be true, could be a lie. On census she says she was born in Dalston, Hackney, London in approx 1857. I cannot find a possible birth on the GRO, FreeBMD or Ancestry.

I worked out the daughter named Mary isn't Emma's daughter but Margaret and son Pierce is. Pierce was married before to Margaret Howey transcribed as Hewey on Ancestry.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/4544608:2182?tid=12020109&pid=310007030181&queryId=4692ca5f9522f3cdcdf72fd952ed768d&_phsrc=IeP9892&_phstart=successSource

Mary
DRISCOLL, MARY CATHERINE - HOWEY
GRO Reference: 1873 J Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK
Volume 08B Page257

Margaret

DRISCOLL, MARGARET ELLEN - WINGFIELD
GRO Reference: 1880 D Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK
Volume 01D Page 245

Pierce

DRISCOLL, PIERCE PATRICK - WINGFIELD
GRO Reference: 1884 D Quarter in POPLAR Volume 01C Page 649

Emma married again after Pierce's death to Henry Moorhouse and Emma, Margaret and Pierce plus another daughter Adeline (birth reg below) emigrated to the USA. I think Mary may have died or married early on.

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8913&h=8362479&tid=&pid=&queryId=cd68940a447aa639cc83cbc08e086c37&usePUB=true&_phsrc=IeP9931&_phstart=successSource&_gl=1*yblvm6*_ga*Njg2NDU4ODQ3LjE2NDcyODAxMTQ.*_ga_ 4QT8FMEX30*MTY1MTI5Njc4NS4yLjEuMTY1MTMwMzI5MC4w

Can't find full cert online will probably have to send for one but I will go to the Essex site to check so hold fire on that.
.
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7488&h=8412266&tid=172595146&pid=382241246356&queryId=52c94dd0bffbeb3aa26561d81ee3f6c0&usePUB=true#?_phcmd=u('https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/categories/40/?name%3DPierce_Driscoll%26birth%3D1883_england-united%2Bkingdom_3251%26child%3DPierce_Driscoll%26 child2%3DAbraham_Driscoll%26child3%3DGeorge_Drisco ll%26child4%3DVeronica_Driscoll%26child5%3DPatrici a_Driscoll%26child6%3DAlice_Driscoll%26child7%3DRi ta_O%2527Connell%26count%3D50%26father%3DPierce%2B Patrick_Driscoll%26gender%3Dm%26mother%3DEmma_Winf ield%26residence%3D_newark-essex-new%2Bjersey-usa_7818%26residence2%3D_newark-essex-new%2Bjersey-usa_7818%26residence3%3D_newark-essex-new%2Bjersey-usa_7818%26residence4%3D_newark-essex-new%2Bjersey-usa_7818%26searchType%3Dt%26spouse%3DJulia_Driscol l%26treePerson%3D172595146_382241246356%26successS ource%3DSearch%26queryId%3D52c94dd0bffbeb3aa26561d 81ee3f6c0','successSource')

MOORHOUSE, ADELINE CATHERINE -WINGFIELD
GRO Reference: 1891 J Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 148

I can't find Emma before the 1879 marriage to Pierce a few possibilities in 1871 but birth place not London, servant, but up north which is possibly how she met him but more frustratingly I can't even find one in 1861 when she would have been too young to be on her own.

I was looking at a Emma Wingfield born in St Giles to a Hannah Murray plus another child Henry, but not sure at all about this. This Emma was illegitimate so that doesn't help.

MURRAY, EMMA -
GRO Reference:*1859 M Quarter in ST GILES & ST GEORGE Volume 01B Page 401

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=IeP9905&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&dbid=8767&gsfn=Emma&gsln=Wingfield&cp=4&gskw=St%20Giles&_83004003-n_xcl=m&msmng=Hannah&msbdy=1855&msbpn__ftp=london,%20england,%20united%20kingdom&msbpn=5274&qh=950a2bb8b4e951717c40be8d848ca57c&new=1&rank=1&uidh=ek4&redir=false&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=2&h=275422&recoff=&ml_rpos=3&queryId=829e44d0c049973d8a5f9239a7be2dc1

Thank you, if you want to ask something before you go of searching please let me.

[Phoenix]

So this is them in 1881?
Pierce Driscoll Head
Married Male 33 1848 Schoolmaster Poplar, Middlesex, England
Emma Driscoll Wife
Married Female 24 1857 - Dalston, Middlesex, England
Mary C Driscoll Daughter
Single Female 7 1874 Scholar Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Margaret E Driscoll Daughter
Single Female 0 1881 - Bermondsey, Surrey, England

[Phoenix]

Do you have shared matches with other people with Wingfields in their trees? Or any other clues to suggest that Wingfield is the link?

[Phoenix]

Oh, and who were the witnesses on the certificate you do have? And can Emma write?

[Phoenix]

There is a John Wingfield who married an Emma Embelin in Stepney in 1857. Any chance tey might be the parents? The transcript is on Ancestry, but I can't see the original yet.

[ElizabethHerts]

There is a John Wingfield who married an Emma Embelin in Stepney in 1857. Any chance tey might be the parents? The transcript is on Ancestry, but I can't see the original yet.

Birth found for this couple:
WINGFIELD, JOHN HENRY EMBELIN
GRO Reference: 1858 J Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 533

I'm still looking.

[kiterunner]

There are a lot of missing bits of the 1861 census, so she could easily have been in one of those.

[ElizabethHerts]

WINGFIELD, CHARLES REUBEN EMBELIN
GRO Reference: 1862 S Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 495

WINGFIELD, WALTER EMBELIN
GRO Reference: 1870 J Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 541

No daughters so far.

[Phoenix]

That John Wingfield is a bootmaker, so it may just be a tempting red herring.

[maggie_4_7]

So this is them in 1881?
Pierce Driscoll Head
Married Male 33 1848 Schoolmaster Poplar, Middlesex, England
Emma Driscoll Wife
Married Female 24 1857 - Dalston, Middlesex, England
Mary C Driscoll Daughter
Single Female 7 1874 Scholar Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Margaret E Driscoll Daughter
Single Female 0 1881 - Bermondsey, Surrey, England

Yes

Do you have shared matches with other people with Wingfields in their trees? Or any other clues to suggest that Wingfield is the link?

Difficult one, but the answer is yes but this person matches with two of my three closest matches one is my first cousin, my mum's sister's daughter. But they are so far down my tree that gives other possibilities. I am assuming the Sayer marriage to my Emma Wingfield is the connection to them.

This match matches with shared matches in the USA but they have only got as far as Emma on their trees like the first match. Which is why I think Emma Wingfield is the connection.

However this person matches some people in Australia.

Now these people, that have trees, from what I can see without closer inspection don't have Wingfields in their direct ancestor line but I will have to have a closer look. I do have very low matches, which I won't see even if they do match with first DNA because of the low match, in Australia from two women/sisters that were transported at different times for the same offence currency fraud a gang of them in fact.

Jane Wingfield and her older sister Elizabeth Wingfield who were, from my research, my 3rd Great Grandfather Daniel Wingfield's younger sisters, confusion there too because I think they had a different mother, both named Jane so only half sisters which might account for the low matches.

Jane (married a George Fieldhouse) and Elizabeth (Married first Edward Clouder and the second John Barter) but they are so low matches they don't match with first DNA match but one of them matches with and is managed by the person who does match first DNA match who doesn't seem to Wingfield in his tree. Both women died young in their 30s.

Oh, and who were the witnesses on the certificate you do have? And can Emma write?

Witnesses Louise Fleming and John Barton there is a correction on Louisa's surname can't read it but looks it was a spelling mistake.

I don't know if she could write because all the certificate looks like the same handwriting and it's very good and no X marks the spot on the Groom, Bride or witnesses.

[maggie_4_7]

Sorry I have to go do something but will look for Emma's marriage on the Essex site when I get back.

[maggie_4_7]

Can't find marriage cert online but it looks like Henry was born in the USA which probably why they went there.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/18591914:6598?tid=&pid=&queryId=4ba4b9eaaf0f2b1e7f86a5eb53489da9&_phsrc=IeP9946&_phstart=successSource

[Phoenix]

The Emma you found in 1861, could this be her in 1871:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7619/images/LNDRG10_364_368-0066?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=8f8c6ca70d54297f214b05382e362731&pId=28999691


Now called Collins, but mother Hannah, tailoress, and brother Henry, with younger sibs.

[Phoenix]

Dur, yes of course it is: mother Mary Murray there as well.

[Phoenix]

Here is daughter Annie:
COLLINS, ANNIE LOUISA MURRAY GRO Reference: 1862 J Quarter in WESTMINSTER Volume 01A Page 303

[Phoenix]

And tis is Emma's baptism:


https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/61866/images/61865_314054001181_17724-00097?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=bb184f812aa596088831d33573dd76d1&usePUB=true&_phsrc=lHX8109&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=150123670

[maggie_4_7]

The Emma you found in 1861, could this be her in 1871:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7619/images/LNDRG10_364_368-0066?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=8f8c6ca70d54297f214b05382e362731&pId=28999691


Now called Collins, but mother Hannah, tailoress, and brother Henry, with younger sibs.

Here is daughter Annie:
COLLINS, ANNIE LOUISA MURRAY GRO Reference: 1862 J Quarter in WESTMINSTER Volume 01A Page 303


Yes it is now as a Collins must see if I can find her on census with the name Collins or a marriage.

[maggie_4_7]

I think this them with another daughter Sarah, can't find a birth registration in the area.

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7572&h=14666882&tid=&pid=&queryId=543102083dcdae18ccb911c3c37bba49&usePUB=true#?_phcmd=u('https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/?name%3DEmma_Collins%26birth%3D1859_st%2Bgiles%2Bi n%2Bthe%2Bfields%2Band%2Bst%2Bgeorge-london-england-united%2Bkingdom_85674%26count%3D50%26location%3D3 257.3250%26priority%3Denglish%26successSource%3DSe arch%26queryId%3D543102083dcdae18ccb911c3c37bba49' ,'successSource')

So it can't be the Emma I am looking for because my one married Pierce in 1879 and is on the 1881 census with him.

[Phoenix]

Bum. But at least that eliminates her.

[kiterunner]

Here is a John Winfield, provision dealer, on the 1881 census, but nowhere near Dalston!

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7572/images/DBYRG11_3396_3399-0433?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=BPu37982&_phstart=successSource&pId=2673680

[maggie_4_7]

Here is a John Winfield, provision dealer, on the 1881 census, but nowhere near Dalston!

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7572/images/DBYRG11_3396_3399-0433?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=BPu37982&_phstart=successSource&pId=2673680

Thank you how did you find it I spent most of yesterday afternoon and evening looking!

[kiterunner]

I searched on FMP for John Winfield or Wingfield with provision in the keyword field. Then I looked on Ancestry when I had some census info since I haven't got an FMP sub. But I doubt that he is the right one, i.e. your Emma's father.

[maggie_4_7]

I searched on FMP for John Winfield or Wingfield with provision in the keyword field. Then I looked on Ancestry when I had some census info since I haven't got an FMP sub. But I doubt that he is the right one, i.e. your Emma's father.

You're probably right of course but you never know, I am missing a John Wingfield born 1828 although born in London. I can only hope. I will do a bit of digging about to see what comes up.

I have been in and out of trees in Australia and the USA. Also NSW and Tasmanian BMDs, just looking for snippets or just one clue who she was. I think I will send for her second marriage to Henry Moorhouse to see what her father's name was on that one.

[maggie_4_7]

Update: Recieved second marriage certificate for Emma Driscoll nee Wingfield and Henry Moorhouse 1890.

Father John Wingfield no occupation but now deceased. Witnesses John Fortune and Emma Buckley.

Emma's address 204 Victoria Dock Road, Custom House.

Consistence with lies or it was the truth.

[Phoenix]

Recapping:
Emma first marries in 1879 in Shoreditch to Pierce, a widower with small children.
Subsequent children born in the London area.
On that first marriage, she says her father is John, a provisions dealer. On the next marriage she maintains that his name is John, but simply says he is deceased.

You can't find her (or him!) before the first marriage, and there are never recognisable family members with her on the census.

Am I right so far?

[maggie_4_7]

Recapping:
Emma first marries in 1879 in Shoreditch to Pierce, a widower with small children.
Subsequent children born in the London area.
On that first marriage, she says her father is John, a provisions dealer. On the next marriage she maintains that his name is John, but simply says he is deceased.

You can't find her (or him!) before the first marriage, and there are never recognisable family members with her on the census.

Am I right so far?

Yes except Pierce Driscoll had one daughter by his first wife Margaret Howey.

Both Margaret Ellen and Pierce Patrick were Emma's they both travelled to USA in 1891 including Adeline by Henry Moorhouse with Emma, while in the USA Adeline died aged 4 and Emma had another two sons and a daughter by Henry Moorhouse named Henry, Lillian and Walter.

I have been looking at John Wingfields who died between 1879 and 1890.

One sticks out John Wingfield born approx 1811 died 1884 Poplar but that is as far as I got he is on 1881 census in his own Dock Labourer.

Wingfield John 73 Poplar 1c 383

[Phoenix]

A provisions dealer may be a term to impress a new husband.

I found this in 1901:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBC%2F1901%2F1621-1623%2F0199&parentid=GBC%2F1901%2F0013044969


John Thomas Wingfield widower aged 73 retired baker, blind, born limehouse, with a live in servant and her relations.


Where was your missing John born?

[maggie_4_7]

A provisions dealer may be a term to impress a new husband.

I found this in 1901:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBC%2F1901%2F1621-1623%2F0199&parentid=GBC%2F1901%2F0013044969


John Thomas Wingfield widower aged 73 retired baker, blind, born limehouse, with a live in servant and her relations.


Where was your missing John born?

Southwark.

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=aDX3915&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&dbid=7572&gsfn=John&gsln=Winfield&cp=0&_83004003-n_xcl=f&msbdy=1811&msbpn__ftp=Southwark,%20London,%20England&ssrc=pt_t182645261_p252380537415&new=1&rank=1&uidh=ek4&redir=false&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=0&h=15525338&recoff=&ml_rpos=1&queryId=e6c980232cad982373ae16f3d7c73a46

[Phoenix]

I am missing a John Wingfield born 1828 although born in London. .


But the one you have found was born 1811. Could his birth date really be so far out?

[maggie_4_7]

But the one you have found was born 1811. Could his birth date really be so far out?

No but it could be a Wingfield connected the next tier up. On the DNA match the ones I have seen seem to be descended from Pierce Patrick but I am trying to find one descended from the Moorhouse children because in those Pierce Patrick Driscoll trees it is very possible it could be someone else (can't see it though) other than Emma but my Wingfields are apt to dissappear frequently.

[Phoenix]

Since I'm clearly not going to move from this armchair, who were your disappearing John's parents and his siblings? Do they appear on a census in 51? Just so I know who I should be looking for. If I've got a date and place of birth for one, I should be able to latch onto the family.

[maggie_4_7]

My 3rd great grandfather Daniel's siblings

John Wingfield <----- This one probably married an Agnes Burgess
B 1800 Southwark, London, England

Links I have neither confirmed or dismissed.

https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/1310698/person/422090968159/hints

https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/1310698/person/422090968159/hints

https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/808934:2052?ssrc=pt&tid=1310698&pid=422090968159

William Wingfield
B 1806 • Holborn London, England

Francis Wingfield
Bi 1813 • St Pancras, London, England

I have never been sure these 3 are Daniel's siblings but maybe.


My 2nd great grandmother Emma's (Daniel's daughter) siblings.

Henry Wingfield
B 22 July 1819 • Shoreditch, London, England

John Dorset Wingfield
B 6 July 1828 • Shoreditch, London, England

I have never found Henry for sure after the age of 12 when he was baptised.

The last sighting of John is 1841

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1841&indiv=try&h=7793019

Could have been transported to Australia, a likely John on the criminal registers keeps popping up.

Don't let this distract you from other things Phoenix.

[maggie_4_7]

This conundrum is so infuriating, going around circles.

[Phoenix]

For all we know, she could be a daughter of Emma before she married.
Also, when Ann Wingfield is buried in 1860, she was living at Victoria Road, DALSTON.

[maggie_4_7]

For all we know, she could be a daughter of Emma before she married.
Also, when Ann Wingfield is buried in 1860, she was living at Victoria Road, DALSTON.

Emma who? My 2nd great grandmother Emma was born in 1842 she was the youngest, her sister Sarah was 14 years older and her sister Ann was 8 years older. The Victoria Rd in Dalston is in a totally different area to Victoria Dock Road in Custom House which is Plaistow area.

The Dalston connection and the name Wingfield is why I think Emma Wingfield who married Pierce Driscoll is the DNA connection. I considered that she was Sarah's daughter Emma who was born in 1857 but she was registered as Emma Ann Palmer father the elusive Frederick Palmer Seaman. This Emma could quite clearly use the Palmer name and Frederick as her father it's all there on her birth certificate whether its true or not so no need to use her mother's maiden name of Wingfield.

I lose Emma Ann Palmer after the 1861 census.

Remember I can't find a birth registration in that area that would fit this Emma Wingfield.

[Phoenix]

Ann Wingfield, presumably one of Daniel's daughters died 1860 and was buried 23 Dec 1860, in Victoria Park Cemetery. Her adress is given as Victoria Road Dalston: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/2912728:2972?tid=164006777&pid=352170490125&queryId=ad19b7735925818cb5a4e5fbdeb64a0b&_phsrc=lHX8911&_phstart=successSource
It's not inconceivable that she had an illegitimate daughter, born were she was living when she died, who she called after her sister Emma. I'm not sayiing that that is the case, just that it is a possible scenario, with one member of your Wingfield family actually living in the same district where the mysterious Emma was born.

[maggie_4_7]

Ann Wingfield, presumably one of Daniel's daughters died 1860 and was buried 23 Dec 1860, in Victoria Park Cemetery. Her adress is given as Victoria Road Dalston: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/2912728:2972?tid=164006777&pid=352170490125&queryId=ad19b7735925818cb5a4e5fbdeb64a0b&_phsrc=lHX8911&_phstart=successSource
It's not inconceivable that she had an illegitimate daughter, born were she was living when she died, who she called after her sister Emma. I'm not sayiing that that is the case, just that it is a possible scenario, with one member of your Wingfield family actually living in the same district where the mysterious Emma was born.


Yes but can't find birth registration for any Emma Wingfield in that area which would be Hackney or at a stretch Shoreditch in the time frame. I could see no illegitimate births at all anywhere.

[Merry]

Yes but can't find birth registration for any Emma Wingfield in that area which would be Hackney or at a stretch Shoreditch in the time frame. I could see no illegitimate births at all anywhere.

Perhaps her birth wasn't registered? A fair percentage were not, especially before the 1870s when the rules were tightened. I expect the percentage of unregistered births was probably higher for illegitimate births and also for those born in a city or other busy place where you could more easily pass under the radar.

[maggie_4_7]

Perhaps her birth wasn't registered? A fair percentage were not, especially before the 1870s when the rules were tightened. I expect the percentage of unregistered births was probably higher for illegitimate births and also for those born in a city or other busy place where you could more easily pass under the radar.

Yes - I don't think I will ever solve this. Hoping for a DNA match with a descendent of the Moorhouse children to confirm it is Emma that is the link.

I did think she may be Ann's daughter, I am not judging them I wasn't there they were very poor, but living the way they did, both Ann and Sarah seem to be living at the same adress of Victoria Road and taking into account Sarah's children, I can't see that Ann would not have had a child a some point.

[Merry]

The Ann who died in 1860 was only 23 though, so not sure she fits well :(

[maggie_4_7]

The Ann who died in 1860 was only 23 though, so not sure she fits well :(

This Emma Wingfield gives a birth year of 1857 its possible.

I would have liked them to name the 'Gentleman' Ann was living with at the time of her death.

[Merry]

But don't you need Ann to be older to fit with your Ann?

Maybe I've missed the point, having perhaps not fully digested the whole thread!

[Merry]

This Emma Wingfield gives a birth year of 1857 its possible.

I would have liked them to name the 'Gentleman' Ann was living with at the time of her death.

Maybe, if you are very lucky, he registered the death.

[maggie_4_7]

Maybe, if you are very lucky, he registered the death.

No the coroner did.


http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=29006

Thread about Sarah Wingfield's children:

http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=28985&highlight=Sarah+Wingfield

[Merry]

Oh, I didn't realise there was another thread. I wondered how this Ann suddenly appeared without explanation! I get it now!

[maggie_4_7]

Oh, I didn't realise there was another thread. I wondered how this Ann suddenly appeared without explanation! I get it now!

The Wingfields drive me nuts.

[Phoenix]

Best Mate's London lot tend to shack up with someone, register births under the father's surname, move on to a new partner and the next child is called something different.

[Phoenix]

The Ann who died in 1860 was only 23 though, so not sure she fits well :(

That's the burial day. She was born and bp 1834, and buried aged 26.

[Merry]

lol when I was typing that I thought, "Oh, was that her age or the burial date, shall I go back and look? No!..... It will be right!!" :o:D:D:D

[Phoenix]

Thanks for posting those two links.

Remind me,

Emma Ann Palmer... does she disappear when Emma Wingfield does appear? She is the right age, and seems to be born in the right area.

[maggie_4_7]

Thanks for posting those two links.

Remind me,

Emma Ann Palmer... does she disappear when Emma Wingfield does appear? She is the right age, and seems to be born in the right area.

Yes the last I have certainty of her is 1861, a few Emma Palmers around but can't be sure sure any of them are her. I think Sarah died in 1863/64 got one death cert but still none the wiser nothing on it confirms its my Sarah. Louisa Jane died on 20 Dec 1862 • 33 Ware Street, Kingsland Road, Hackney, London. That is Sarah's brother Walter with them he died of smallpox on 1 Oct 1871 • Small Pox Hospital, Hackney, London.

They were at the same address Ann died at:

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8767&h=5589897&ssrc=pt&tid=1310698&pid=-1087662071&usePUB=true&_gl=1*15lo5w0*_ga*MTAwMTU1NzgwOC4xNjQ4ODgzNjU4*_ga _4QT8FMEX30*MTY1MjQ2NDE1NC4xNi4xLjE2NTI0NjQxNzUuMA ..

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8914&h=25494363&ssrc=pt&tid=1310698&pid=325003135&usePUB=true&_gl=1*173o6xq*_ga*MTAwMTU1NzgwOC4xNjQ4ODgzNjU4*_ga _4QT8FMEX30*MTY1MjQ2NDE1NC4xNi4xLjE2NTI0NjQ2MjkuMA ..

[Phoenix]

So every single member of Emma Palmer's immediate family were dead by 1871? That's dreadful.

[maggie_4_7]

So every single member of Emma Palmer's immediate family were dead by 1871? That's dreadful.

Yes I think so, but I haven't found Sarah's son Thomas for sure, I expect he died her other daughter Emma born 1850 did.

My 3rd grt grandfather Daniel died 1866 and his wife Martha 1852, the other children were missing well to me they are. The only constant people were Daniel and Martha's two youngest daughters my 2nd grt grandmother Emma born 1842 and Jane her sister born 1836.

Emma died in 1930 and Jane died in 1937 at age 101. I have a photo of Jane being presented with a card by the Mayor of Colchester when she was 100. Although three of Jane's children died of smallpox.

[maggie_4_7]

It has to be Emma Wingfield that is the DNA connection.

I have been cross checking matches.

The highest match with Emma Wingfield as their direct ancestor is a DNA match with a descendent of Jane Wingfield (my Daniel's sister) the convict transported to Australia.

[Merry]

It has to be Emma Wingfield that is the DNA connection.

So, that's the Emma who wasn't born (but says 1857 Dalston) and appeared at her first marriage in 1879 and is only on the census after that date and died in 1930? (Just checking what is in my head isn't wrong!). And she needs to be a grandchild of Daniel and Martha, but from a DNA point of view I presume it makes no difference whose child she is as long as they are her grandparents?

[Phoenix]

And there is Sarah in Dalston with a daughter Emma (Palmer). Emma appears to be orphaned by the early 1860s, with only her mother Wingfield's side of the family to look after her. If she went into the workhouse, it may have been discovered that her parents weren't married and she was properly a Wingfield. By 1871, she would have been old enough to be put in service somewhere.

[maggie_4_7]

So, that's the Emma who wasn't born (but says 1857 Dalston) and appeared at her first marriage in 1879 and is only on the census after that date and died in 1930? (Just checking what is in my head isn't wrong!). And she needs to be a grandchild of Daniel and Martha, but from a DNA point of view I presume it makes no difference whose child she is as long as they are her grandparents?


No my 2nd grt grandmother Emma Sayer nee Wingfield Daniel and Martha's daughter died in 1930.

The Emma I am concerned with emigrated to USA and died there.

This is the first post

http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=30700

[Merry]

Ok, yes, I realised when I was planting my broad beans that I had mentioned a death that was for the previous generation!

So, Emma b 1857 Dalston eventually went to America, but as you don't know her whereabouts before her first marriage in 1879 you don't know who her parents are, but she should be a grandchild of Daniel and Martha because of the DNA match? Is that right?!

[maggie_4_7]

Ok, yes, I realised when I was planting my broad beans that I had mentioned a death that was for the previous generation!

So, Emma b 1857 Dalston eventually went to America, but as you don't know her whereabouts before her first marriage in 1879 you don't know who her parents are, but she should be a grandchild of Daniel and Martha because of the DNA match? Is that right?!

Yes that's what I am thinking.

[Merry]

Ok. It's so tempting to say she is the same person as Emma Ann Palmer, but you would think there might have been some sort of overlap with their supposed fathers details. US Emma said John Wingfield, provisions dealer and Emma Ann was the child of Frederick Palmer, merchant mariner or similar.

I think you said there were other children for Frederick Palmer. Did any of them live to adulthood?

[maggie_4_7]

No, but she had a son Thomas but his father was named as Thomas William Palmer solicitor he isn't on 1861 I assumed he died never pinned him down he could of course be using the name Wingfield or Palmer!

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8912&h=26236968&ssrc=pt&tid=1310698&pid=422091292898&usePUB=true&_gl=1*3hmebu*_ga*MTAwMTU1NzgwOC4xNjQ4ODgzNjU4*_ga_ 4QT8FMEX30*MTY1MjU1MTM2Ny4xOS4xLjE2NTI1NTIzNjYuMA. .

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8912&h=61352045&ssrc=pt&tid=1310698&pid=422091292898&usePUB=true&_gl=1*1kdlo6z*_ga*MTAwMTU1NzgwOC4xNjQ4ODgzNjU4*_ga _4QT8FMEX30*MTY1MjU1MTM2Ny4xOS4xLjE2NTI1NTIzOTkuMA ..

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8860&h=2260388&ssrc=pt&tid=1310698&pid=422091292898&usePUB=true&_gl=1*3q0tef*_ga*MTAwMTU1NzgwOC4xNjQ4ODgzNjU4*_ga_ 4QT8FMEX30*MTY1MjU1MTM2Ny4xOS4xLjE2NTI1NTIyOTAuMA. .

[Merry]

Does Thomas Wm Palmer, solicitor exist?

[maggie_4_7]

Does Thomas Wm Palmer, solicitor exist?

No idea but I doubt it we did look before and I have looked but nothing. I think its pointless this lot are such liars.

It's surprising how common the Wingfield name is in Bethnal Green and Hackney and Palmer well that's same.

[Merry]

Seems quite a shift between Frederick Palmer, seaman and Thomas William Palmer, solicitor? Were those names used once each, but there was another uregistered child? (Sorry to keep asking questions but not coming through with any answers!)

[maggie_4_7]

Father named as Thomas William Palmer - Solicitor

Thomas William Palmer Wingfield/Thomas William Palmer Palmer
BIRTH 13 AUGUST 1846 • 2 Albion Place, Hackney Road, Bethnal Green, London
DEATH Uknown

----------------

No father named

Emma Palmer Wingfield
BIRTH 29 JAN 1850 • 5 Dunston Street, Shoreditch, London
DEATH 22 FEB 1850 • 5 Dunston Street, Shoreditch, London

------------

No birth registration found but noted on census surname Palmer

Louisa Jane Palmer
BIRTH ABT 1852 • Shoreditch, London, England
DEATH 20 DEC 1862 • 33 Ware Street, Kingsland Road, Hackney, London

------------

Father named as Frederick Palmer - 2nd Mate Merchant Service

Emma Anne Palmer
BIRTH 11 FEBRUARY 1857 • 32 Dunston Street, Shoreditch, London
DEATH Unknown

[Merry]

No, but she had a son Thomas but his father was named as Thomas William Palmer solicitor he isn't on 1861 I assumed he died never pinned him down he could of course be using the name Wingfield or Palmer!

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8912&h=26236968&ssrc=pt&tid=1310698&pid=422091292898&usePUB=true&_gl=1*3hmebu*_ga*MTAwMTU1NzgwOC4xNjQ4ODgzNjU4*_ga_ 4QT8FMEX30*MTY1MjU1MTM2Ny4xOS4xLjE2NTI1NTIzNjYuMA. .

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8912&h=61352045&ssrc=pt&tid=1310698&pid=422091292898&usePUB=true&_gl=1*1kdlo6z*_ga*MTAwMTU1NzgwOC4xNjQ4ODgzNjU4*_ga _4QT8FMEX30*MTY1MjU1MTM2Ny4xOS4xLjE2NTI1NTIzOTkuMA ..

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8860&h=2260388&ssrc=pt&tid=1310698&pid=422091292898&usePUB=true&_gl=1*3q0tef*_ga*MTAwMTU1NzgwOC4xNjQ4ODgzNjU4*_ga_ 4QT8FMEX30*MTY1MjU1MTM2Ny4xOS4xLjE2NTI1NTIyOTAuMA. .

I'm thinking this might be Thomas Wm Palmer jr in 1861 (8 lines from the bottom):

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8767/images/MDXRG9_245_249-0709?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&pId=5596882

I was actually just browsing Dunston St, but hadn't realised I was looking at New Dunston Street!

[Merry]

Oh, maybe not, as this could easily be the same Thomas Wm, same occupation, but he has brothers :(:(:(

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2352/images/rg14_01191_0165_03?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=d445ce2010e0bd92efd5d43378f02bc2&pId=206002

[Merry]

This is the 1911 family in 1871 so obviously this isn't your Thomas aged 25:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7619/images/LNDRG10_346_349-0265?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=718e38dda60384deac835143d8f37fef&pId=11655894

I would have liked to have found them in 1861 to see if their son was not at home to help prove he was the one in New Dunston Street, but of course I can't find them! (could be part of missing records?).

[Merry]

This is the birth reg for the butcher's son:

PALMER, THOMAS MOORE
GRO Reference: 1846 J Quarter in HOLBORN UNION Volume 02 Page 167

So, no middle name :( but he is Thomas William at his baptism:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1558/images/31280_195167-00172?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=f00352869d9adf417f9c8baa5e4abdbc&pId=2032564

There's a marriage in 1844 for the parents, Thomas and Ann, though Thomas is a cheesemonger rather than a butcher. I think it's the right one as birth regs for some of the other sons (Harry and George) have mmn Moore.

Given this boy was eventually given the middle name William, I would imagine that is him in New Dunston Street in 1861. I will have one more look for the rest of his family in 1861......

[maggie_4_7]

Oh, maybe not, as this could easily be the same Thomas Wm, same occupation, but he has brothers :(:(:(

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2352/images/rg14_01191_0165_03?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=d445ce2010e0bd92efd5d43378f02bc2&pId=206002


Yep just seen that, I remember finding a Thomas William Palmer Butcher.

I think his parents were Thomas and Ann Moore, most of the children were born in St Giles though not Shoreditch

PALMER, THOMAS MOORE
GRO Reference: 1846 J Quarter in HOLBORN UNION Volume 02 Page 167

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881&indiv=try&h=14644390

Snap

[Merry]

Well, I possibly found two of their sons, who I had hoped would lead to the parents:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8767/images/BRKRG9_761_764-0911?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=8386134

[Merry]

Yes, the only hope left is that the birthplace for the Thomas in New Dunston St is not perfect for the son of the butcher, but the householder may have guessed, or asking a teen where he was born may well have produced an "I don't know"!

[maggie_4_7]

Thanks for looking Merry.