View Full Version : Portsmouth Garrsion Hospital Records
Steve Bridges
16-04-22, 13:02
Hi-
I have just learned that my g-g-grandfather William Bridges died at what is called the Station Hospital in Portsmouth, in March 1876 (source: British Newspaper Archive). I am assuming this is what was called the Garrison Hospital?
He was in a the army (sources Marriage Cert., 1871 Census), but a lowly rank as far as I can tell (no regimental records survive of his service). The death notice in the paper calls him a 'smith', however. Unfortunately, he does not appear in the BDM Index.
Does anyone have suggestions as to whether there are surviving records from the hospital that might help me discover how he died?
Steve Bridges
Sydney, Australia.
kiterunner
16-04-22, 14:54
I can't even find the death notice on the British Newspaper Archive website, nor on Findmypast. Can you give us some details such as publication date and newspaper, please? Also where is he on the 1871 census and who did he marry and when?
I looked the same places as kiterunner plus the British Armed Forces and Overseas Deaths and Burials records on FMP. Still nothing though.
ElizabethHerts
16-04-22, 17:04
I couldn't find anything either.
Ditto. The only William Bridges shown as buried in Portsmouth in 1876 is an infant.
How old was this William when he died? Where was he on the census? If he was a smith, might he have been working in the dockyard?
I think the Station Hospital was in Portsea district rather than Portsmouth, but still no fitting registration!
It looks as if it was near Unicorn Terrace and the old Colewort Barracks, so yes, Portsea rather than St Thomas. I would expect a burial in Mile End Cemetery or Kingston Cemetery. At that date, death registration would either be under military deaths or Portse Island RD.
This is a fascinating thread: I hadn't realised that the QA started life as a military hospital, though that makes perfect sense, given its location. And there's the Haslar at Gosport as well.
Do you know his Regiment?
Steve Bridges
17-04-22, 00:42
Thanks, everyone-
This is my first post, so I'm impressed with the enthusiasm of members!
William Bridges was born in 1834 in Chedworth, GLS; parents Emmanuel and Rose (n.Crook).
He was married May 20, 1870 in Cheltenham, GLS, to Charlotte Clarke, with occupation listed as 'Military Train'. Therefore, he died aged 41. Newspaper notice attached, from the Cheltenham Mercury 18th March.
I just realised that I don't have him in the 1861 or 1871 Census (was he serving overseas?).
He's a real mystery!
Congratulations on finding the notice! No wonder we didn't. OCR at its best!
I wonder who inserted the notice? Charlotte? If so, why isn't she mentioned? Do you know wat happened to her? And did Rose die in the same quarter? That double blow is curious.
ElizabethHerts
17-04-22, 07:03
I've been trying to find him in the missing censuses, with no luck so far.
But I have found the baptism of his son William Emanuel on Ancestry:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5066/images/41511_636672_0868-00039?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&pId=152325337
12 February 1874
He is a Private in the Army.
ElizabethHerts
17-04-22, 07:08
For reference, his marriage is on Ancestry.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5156/images/41511_633870_4482-00189?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&pId=129971
Congratulations on finding the notice! No wonder we didn't. OCR at its best!
I wonder who inserted the notice? Charlotte? If so, why isn't she mentioned? Do you know wat happened to her? And did Rose die in the same quarter? That double blow is curious.
Rose was buried on 3rd Jan 1876 at Leckhampton.
Charlotte is in service in 1871, and back with her parents in 1881.
I wonder if William deserted her, and that death notice, inserted as soon as Rose had died and couldn't contest it, was a way of providing respectability?
It's possible the death registration information didn't make it to the GRO, but was registered at Portsea register office in the normal way.
It might be worth contacting the local register office to attempt to purchase a copy of the certificate from them rather than the GRO. If the newspaper notice is accurate then you have the date and place of death to help them in their search. Portsea had 10 different sub-districts, pne of which was called Portsea Town and that seems to be the correct sub-district for the hospital.
Phoenix, this is the address I found for the hospital on the 1881 census - does it look like the rght place to you?
Full address "Military Station, Hospital" Lion Terrace Road, Portsea, Portsea Island, Hampshire.
I'm assuming the records for Portsea District (closed down in 1900) would now be with Portsmouth registrars. Phoenix, I expect you know this for certain?
Portsmouth Register Office, Milldam House, Burnaby Rd, Portsmouth PO1 3AF
email:
[email protected]
I don't know about Portsmouth, but some local register offices are not keen to do family history certificate copies and will try to direct you to the GRO. They also may not be keen to look for something if you tell them the GRO don't have it!! Just bear these things in mind when contacting! (Phoenix, do you know if they are friendly at Portsmouth??!!!)
Yes, that's the address for the hospital. Don't know the currect details for the registrar as we dealt with my aunt's registration over the phone.
But they wouldn't have chucked his body into the Solent. He ought to have been buried somewhere. His family appear to have little money, so he should have been buried in Portsmouth. Mine would usually be in Mile End, or recorded in St Marys, possibly buried in Kingston Cemetery. I don't know that the other churches would have had working graveyards at that time. They are all on Find My Past, and I can't see anything.
Charlotte is in service in 1871, and back with her parents in 1881.
I wonder if William deserted her, and that death notice, inserted as soon as Rose had died and couldn't contest it, was a way of providing respectability?
Rose had been dead over two months though.
Charlotte only seems to have had the one child. (some trees have another called Rose Grace, b 1875 d 1876, but that baby had a different mother, I forget the mmn now - may have been Miles or similar?). Should we be worrying about William Emanuel's paternity?
Yes, that's the address for the hospital. Don't know the currect details for the registrar as we dealt with my aunt's registration over the phone.
But they wouldn't have chucked his body into the Solent. He ought to have been buried somewhere. His family appear to have little money, so he should have been buried in Portsmouth. Mine would usually be in Mile End, or recorded in St Marys, possibly buried in Kingston Cemetery. I don't know that the other churches would have had working graveyards at that time. They are all on Find My Past, and I can't see anything.
I'm very concerned that he wasn't actually dec'd.
Maybe I've just realised that's what you meant when you said about Rose 'not contesting it'?
Charlotte might have been left with a child and no husband and whispering and she knows Wm isn't coming back for whatever reason so she places a newspaper notice??
Too far-fetched? Have I watched too many soaps?!!
Olde Crone
17-04-22, 08:26
1876 was the year that death registration, supported by a medical death certificate, became compulsory, in order to prevent fraudulent registrations of death (for insurance claims) or murder cover ups, so it is indeed a worry that the registration isn't apparent - but would an ordinary member of the public have known this?
OC
Steve Bridges
17-04-22, 08:39
William's mother Rose died in the quarter before William (29/12/1875) in Leckhampton, GLS, aged 67.
The question of why Charlotte would not mention herself in the death notice is open to speculation. Perhaps she had gone back to her birthplace of Didmarton/Oldbury on the Hill with their son William Emmanuel (b.1873) - she is there in the 1881 Census as a widow; and died in the Tetbury Workhouse in 1912. By then, my g-grandfather William had emigrated to Australia.
So perhaps someone like William's sister Jane (Sessions) or sister Anne (Butt) did the notice, as they both lived in the Cheltenham area. Only brothers are often quite cherished by their sisters...
It is my suspicion that William & Charlotte's marriage was a difficult one if he was away on some sort of military service...
1876 was the year that death registration, supported by a medical death certificate, became compulsory, in order to prevent fraudulent registrations of death (for insurance claims) or murder cover ups, so it is indeed a worry that the registration isn't apparent - but would an ordinary member of the public have known this?
If his death wasn't registered (I'm not saying it definitely wasn't!) then in this case the problem would be either that he wasn't dead but someone in his family thought he was or wanted him to appear so, or they have a body that shouldnt get a burial because there's no death cert.
Are you saying somone put a death notice in the paper in the hope this would be proof of his death?
Well I would be! However,William jnr has Emmanuel as a second name, and is baptised in Leckhampton, where Rose is buried.
ave you done a DNA test, Steve, to see whether you have Bridges matches?
Well I would be! However, he has Emmanuel as a second name, and is baptised in Leckhampton, where Rose is buried.
I think I am of a suspicious nature! The fact that he is named for his father and grandfather just made me more suspicious.
Steve Bridges
17-04-22, 09:01
Benjamin and Ann Bridges were the parents of Rose Grace and I've traced them to a different family line.
Also, intriguing though the desertion theory is, I'm not sure the wording of "much beloved and only son" suggests a 'reprobate'?
Thanks for all the suggestions; I'll try the Portsea Office on Tuesday.
Steve Bridges
17-04-22, 09:04
No, Phoenix, I'm not keen on doing a DNA test due to the uncertainty around privacy of personal data...
Quite understandable, though you could get someone else to set it up and use a different email address & user name, so it doesn't link in any way to your identity. Where I've set it up for relations, it's not under their own names.
.
Also, intriguing though the desertion theory is, I'm not sure the wording of "much beloved and only son" suggests a 'reprobate'?
Not in the opinion of whoever wrote it! Perhaps they felt Charlotte was not a deserving wife, so expressed the way his blood relatives felt about him.
I don't think any of us are saying anything definite about the relationship between Wm and Charlotte, just that at the moment things seem open to speculation because of the apparent lack of a burial as well as an apparent lack of a death registration.
Olde Crone
17-04-22, 09:29
Merry
Lots of reasons someone would put a death notice in the paper, including by the man himself, lol, if he wanted to disappear - he wouldn't necessarily have thought he needed to register his death, especially as he wouldn't have known we'd come looking for him later.
However, my money is on the death not reaching the GRO - this has happened twice in my tree and the death is clearly in the local indexes.
OC
kiterunner
17-04-22, 09:32
As for the hospital records, you could contact Portsmouth History Centre and ask whether they hold them, or if not, whether they know who does:
https://librariesandarchives.portsmouth.gov.uk/archive-service-and-history-centre/
he wouldn't necessarily have thought he needed to register his death, especially as he wouldn't have known we'd come looking for him later.
lol I hadn't thought of him entering his own death notice! You must be even more suspicious than I!! (and I'm almost too young to remember John Stonehouse :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:)
And he couldn't have registered his own death because he wouldn't have the medical death cert as you mentioned previously re the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1874.
Steve Bridges
17-04-22, 10:07
Thanks for the advice, kiterunner; I've sent an e-mail to the Portsmouth History Centre as suggested. Not sure where this will take me, but I'll update the forum if I discover more.
Regards...
I checked out John Stonehouse - sounds like our Prime Minister Harold Holt, who disappeared in 1968 and some say went to China and as a double agent!
Steve Bridges
17-04-22, 10:45
Thought I'd throw throw the attached report/image into the mix, suggesting that Charlotte had issues herself (though this is 11 years after William's presumed death)!
kiterunner
17-04-22, 15:14
The Hampshire Telegraph dated Saturday 25 Mar 1876 has a "Weekly Return of Births and Deaths in the Borough of Portsmouth" on page 2. The issues for 11 Mar and 18 Mar are also on the British Newspaper Archive (and so on FMP too), so maybe they have something similar? I haven't got a sub to either site so I can't actually look at the issues and see what they say. Just wondering whether there would be anything pertinent.
ElizabethHerts
17-04-22, 15:19
The Hampshire Telegraph dated Saturday 25 Mar 1876 has a "Weekly Return of Births and Deaths in the Borough of Portsmouth" on page 2. The issues for 11 Mar and 18 Mar are also on the British Newspaper Archive (and so on FMP too), so maybe they have something similar? I haven't got a sub to either site so I can't actually look at the issues and see what they say. Just wondering whether there would be anything pertinent.
I have found this and it is statistical information with no names given, unfortunately.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000069%2f18760325%2f002
kiterunner
17-04-22, 15:33
I was just wondering whether it would show whether at least one man aged about 42 died at the Station / Garrison Hospital in the week in question, Elizabeth.
ElizabethHerts
17-04-22, 16:27
I was just wondering whether it would show whether at least one man aged about 42 died at the Station / Garrison Hospital in the week in question, Elizabeth.
Yes, I've scanned this again:
"... of these two occurred in the Royal Hospital, and one each in the Union Workhouse and the Garrison Station Hospital."
No details of age or gender.
Do you know what the dates would be for the week in question, Elizabeth?
The newspaper notice says William died on 9 Mar which was a Thursday. There's a William Smith aged 4 who died at the Military Hospital and was buried 11 Mar 1876 at Highland Road Cemetery, Southsea. I'm wondering if this is the, 'one at the Garrison Station Hospital' for the week in question?
EDIT: when I looked at FreeBMD afterwards to see if this child was registered for death, I discovered his age is 40 on the GRO index rather than 4. So, now I'm wondering if William registered and buried with his surname confused with his occupation?!! lol
The supposed four year old has an occupation listed on the burial - 'Private a s c'. So, a private in the army service corps? Hardly likely to be aged 4!
Olde Crone
17-04-22, 17:24
There's also a William BRYDGES, aged 1, although that would have to be 41 of course.I
OC
There's also a William BRYDGES, aged 1, although that would have to be 41 of course.I
OC
You're all right, William Prattinton Brydges was born in 1874!
Do you know what the dates would be for the week in question, Elizabeth?
The newspaper notice says William died on 9 Mar which was a Thursday. There's a William Smith aged 4 who died at the Military Hospital and was buried 11 Mar 1876 at Highland Road Cemetery, Southsea. I'm wondering if this is the, 'one at the Garrison Station Hospital' for the week in question?
EDIT: when I looked at FreeBMD afterwards to see if this child was registered for death, I discovered his age is 40 on the GRO index rather than 4. So, now I'm wondering if William registered and buried with his surname confused with his occupation?!! lol
The supposed four year old has an occupation listed on the burial - 'Private a s c'. So, a private in the army service corps? Hardly likely to be aged 4!
That seems a sad, but feasible solution. I looked to see whether there was a soldier's will under Smith or Bridges, but there wasn't.
I just realised I forgot to look at the image of the burial! That says aged 40. Nothing else included to help.
I see the info in the paper has one death ot the Garrison hospital in the weeks to Sat 11th and Sat 18th March. Wm Smith was buried on Sat 11th and there is also another burial on 20th for James Foster aged 40 who died at the military hospital too. I'm thinking they are the two entries for those two weeks records as I expect James Foster died by 18th as he was buried on a Monday (20th).
Ooooh!!
Quote from a site about the asc (army service corps https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/royal-army-service-corps ):
In 1870, the Military Train was renamed the Army Service Corps.
So, William "Smith" was a private in the asc at his death shortly before 11 Mar 1876 and in 1870 (marriage cert) William Bridges was in..........Yep, the Military train!!
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
Steve Bridges
17-04-22, 23:29
Thanks, everyone; I have ordered a Death certificate (PDF) from GRO for William Smith (aged 40); let's see if that matches. None of the usual cemetery photo sites mentions William Smith.
Fingers crossed for you Steve!
Please let us know the result.
The National Archives hold the General Musters and Pay Lists for the ASC in WO 12 at Kew.
Ann Swabey is the expert here, not me - my only attempt to use muster rolls was an abject failure. But it ought to the case that a William appears there, who is discharged dead in March 1876. That ought to prove if there has been an error on surname.
Thanks for recommending me Phoenix. I'd be happy to search the musters and provide relevant copies, Steve, and give you a price for doing so
Steve Bridges
19-04-22, 00:01
Hi Ann-
Thank you for that. I'd suggest searching the 1870's at this stage and the crucial year of 1876, as a starting point. Should I contact you through your website?
Steve
That would be fine, Steve, thanks. https://www.militaryandfamilyresearch.co.uk
Steve Bridges
23-04-22, 09:28
Well, Hi all-
An intriguing death certificate for William Smith (Bridges?). I have attached it, as I'm not concerned about privacy issues.
The date matches, the age is close enough (he was actually 41), and the cause is rather sad...
So, not 100% correct, but this has got to be him!?
Steve
I'd say it's extremely likely. He died on 9th which matches the death notice in the paper at a time when there was only one death per week in that particular hospital.
kiterunner
23-04-22, 13:33
So was Smith his alias, or was there a mix-up between his surname and his civilian occupation, I wonder.
Both William and Charlotte could write. I wonder whether she got a copy of the death certificate, or just a formal letter to advise her of her husband's death?
It's so frustrating that you can't find a service record. Would he have needed to present a marriage certificate at that time? If so, the military should have known his real name, and if the death certificate were in the wrong name, Charlotte could not have used it were it necessary to demonstrate her widowed status.
Steve Bridges
23-04-22, 23:39
What is still interesting is that I can't find him at all on the 1861 or 1871 Census.
Also, although he was in the 'Military Train' at time of marriage, I can't determine when he enlisted. I contacted Ann Swabey about research, but the cost would be too much given the possibility of success.
Not sure if there are any other threads I can follow...
There's a book entitled "In Search of the Folorn Hope". It's a reference book, detailing where the army was.
It's a colossal work, hopefully available in reference libraries, which might indicate where he was - at least in 1871.
I don't now how comprehensive it is, but I looked at the British Army, Worldwide Index 1861 and 1871 on FMP, restricting my search firstly by Army Service Corps and secondly by Military Train. Both brought up a lot of matches, but no William Bridges and a lot of William Smiths! The nearest I found was a William Smith in the 1871 list who gave Cheltenham as his birthplace. Original trade was brushmaker and army details: Army Service Corps, Private, service number 760. I would assume it's unlikely this is your William, but I thought I should post it in any case. I had noticed William and his family were living in Cheltenham in 1841, so there's a chance your William might have said he was born there, whether he actually thought he was or not!
I wasn't able to turn up any other connected record using the service number alone.
Steve Bridges
24-04-22, 11:21
Thanks again, everyone. I'm happy to suggest the death in Portsmouth is him. However, his baptism is shown at Chedworth in July, 1834 - so he could have 42 (or more?) and while his service records should have his correct age, perhaps those reporting the death had no real idea.
I notice the book Forlorn Hope is in our State library in Sydney and i can get there in the coming weeks.
his service records should have his correct age
Any age on his service record will only be from what he told them when he joined up!
Forlorn Hope is not necessarily fully accurate
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