Clara Jane Clark?

[ElizabethHerts]

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8061/images/MANRG11_5605_5609-0520?pId=7537123

She is on the 1881 Census with her grandmother Esther Fargher.
Esther was born Esther Radcliffe. She married James Patty in 1853 and after his death she married Thomas Fargher. In 1885 she married again, to James Kelly.

As far as I'm aware, she only had two children: Thomas Patty, born 1854, and Eleanor Mary (Ellen) Patty.

This girl is either the child of one of these two children, or she could be the granddaughter of Thomas Fargher, unless she had another child of whom I'm unaware.

She names this child in her will. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSDX-C9HF-9?i=636&cat=234410
Here the surname looks like Charles and not Clark but the writing is pretty appalling.

She should have been born c. 1877 at Malew but I can't find any candidates for her.

[kiterunner]

I think the will might say Clarke.

[kiterunner]

Is this her on the 1891 census?
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7142/images/MANRG12_4681_4683-0551?usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ctf25749&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=17820
Parents Henry and Jane.

[kiterunner]

This is Henry in 1881 - wife's name is Eliza. Clara isn't there but the other children from 1891 are.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8061/images/MANRG11_5605_5609-0520?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=79165fe11b5c38cda8bfa354c2cd50af&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ctf25752&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=7537100

Also an Esther Radcliffe age 86, "relative".

[kiterunner]

In 1871 Eleanor Patty is visiting the Clark family:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7620/images/MANRG10_5776_5777-0555?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=3788707

[ElizabethHerts]

I've been looking at those too, Kate.

Ooh, I haven't looked at Eleanor / Ellen Patty recently.

I can't find a baptism for Clara, which is unusual.

There seems to be a lot of intermarriage on the Isle of Man. Off to look further!

[ElizabethHerts]

This is Henry in 1881 - wife's name is Eliza. Clara isn't there but the other children from 1891 are.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8061/images/MANRG11_5605_5609-0520?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=79165fe11b5c38cda8bfa354c2cd50af&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ctf25752&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=7537100

Also an Esther Radcliffe age 86, "relative".

Clara is with Esther Fargher at Malew.

[ElizabethHerts]

Here is the break-through!

First name(s) Eliza
Last name Radcliffe
Sex Female
Event year 1851
Birth year 1851
Baptism year 1851
Baptism date 04 Dec 1851
Father's first name(s) -
Father's last name -
Mother's first name(s) Esther
Mother's last name Radcliffe
Place St Mark's, Mallew
County Isle of Man
Country Isle of Man
Source Isle of Man Births & Baptisms 1606-1911
Record set Isle Of Man, Births And Baptisms 1600-2010
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Collections from Great Britain, UK Other

[kiterunner]

Clara is with Esther Fargher at Malew.

Yes, I realise that, but I thought it worth mentioning that there wasn't also a Clara with the Clark family, just to prove that there was only one Clara.

[ElizabethHerts]

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9Q6-NFF5?cc=1784428&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQV9B-Y755

Now I'm confused!

[ElizabethHerts]

There's an Eliza Sayle in London in 1871:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/5351789:7619?tid=&pid=&queryId=169cde6fb0bbc080578037995f2a5350&_phsrc=MgJ16412&_phstart=successSource

Here is Eliza with her grandparents in 1861:

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1861%2F0021538060

The Esther Radcliffe you found earlier, Kate, is the other Esther's mother. I did have her on that census.

[ElizabethHerts]

Esther Patty was a spinster when she married James Patty in 1853 (the certificate is online at Family Search).

It seems it was common knowledge who Eliza's father was.

[ElizabethHerts]

Here is Eliza's baptism:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-61LS-DVY?i=16&cc=1784428


Over the past 24 hours I've managed to locate 5 Isle of Man wills on Family Search and download them, helped by this index:

http://www.iomfhs.im/resources/wills/Index_A-Z.html

It entails scrolling through pages and pages.

[kiterunner]

Post #8 shows that Eliza was illegitimate, so couldn't it just be that she used her father's surname when she got married?

[Phoenix]

/I don't wish to muddy the water any more, but Esther Radcliffe from the original post, aged 86 in 1881 is living with Henry Clarke and Eliza nee Sayle. She has Clarke crossed through as a surname, and despite being an aged widow, has "putative daughter" as her relationship with head of household. Might this suggest that Clara was not actually Henry's daughter?

[kiterunner]

/I don't wish to muddy the water any more, but Esther Radcliffe from the original post, aged 86 in 1881 is living with Henry Clarke and Eliza nee Sayle. She has Clarke crossed through as a surname, and despite being an aged widow, has "putative daughter" as her relationship with head of household. Might this suggest that Clara was not actually Henry's daughter?

I think daughter has been crossed out and replaced with relative. I think the enumerator started to write her in as if she was another one of the children and then realised his mistake.

[ElizabethHerts]

I'm keeping an open mind about Eliza and the wider family.

When Eliza was living with her grandparents she went by the name of Sayle, probably for respectability's sake.

There was a lot of illegitimacy and multiple marriages on the Isle of Man!