Marriage record

[ElizabethHerts]

I'm about to send for the marriage certificate for Alexander Bell and Mary Ann Dougall, who married in Q1 1875 in the Newcastle-upon-Tyne registration district.

Mary Ann was born Harley and married William Dougall in 1873. He died in Q4 1874 then she married Alexander.

Please could someone tell me if Newcastle-upon-Tyne marriages are viewable online? For most of this tree the marriage records have been online and I don't want to waste my money only to find the marriage lurking online.

I need to find out more about both of these people.

[Phoenix]

That's going to be Northumberland, rather than Durham, isn't it?

There's lots of Durham online, but I haven'r been so successful finding Northumberland stuff.

[kiterunner]

Newcastle City Council have their own BMD index site, but it doesn't show the name of the church or register office. Not much help. I don't think any of the sites have many Northumberland PR's. FamilySearch may have some which aren't indexed, but it wouldn't be much use if we don't know which church to look at, or if they even got married in church. Though isn't there a site which figures that out from GRO references?

[kiterunner]

Never mind, I looked on the Marriage Locator site and it said "Sorry, we cannot locate the church for this marriage. The entry is located between entries for Newcastle RO (RD: Newcastle upon Tyne) and Cullercoats St Paul (RD: Tynemouth)." So no help there either.

[ElizabethHerts]

Thanks for looking, Phoenix. I think I'll have to order it.

I think Alexander's father is Francis. Alexander's age fluctuates from census to census.

1851 Census - there seem to be 2 records for the same family.
Archive reference HO107
Piece number 2408 Folio 52 Page 47
44 Quality Row, All Saints, Newcastle-Upon-Tyne, Northumberland
Francis Bell Head Mar 37 Stocking Maker Scotland
Mary Wife Mar 40 Scotland
Elizabeth Daur 10 Scotland
James Son 8 Scholar Scotland
Mary Ann Daur 5 Scholar Scotland
John Son 3 Scotland
Alexander omitted

Archive reference HO107 Piece number 2408 Folio 56 Page 54
66 Quality Row, All Saints, Newcastle-Upon-Tyne, Northumberland
Francis Bell Head Mar 37 Stocking maker employs 2 men Scotland
Mary Wife Mar 40 Stocking maker Wife Scotland
Elizabeth Daur 10 Scholar Scotland
James Son 8 Scholar Scotland
Mary Ann Daur 6 Scotland
Alexander Son 3 Scotland * Transposed with John so DOB 1850
John 1 Northumberland, Newcastle
Mary Scott Lodger W 18 Scotland
Charles Parker Lodger U 25 Scotland
Robert Eliott Lodger U 30 Scotland


1861 Census
Francis Bell Head Mar 45 Stocking Weaver Scotland
Mary Wife Mar 46 Stocking Weaver Wife Scotland
Elizabeth Daur Un 21 Stocking Weaver Scotland
James Son Un 19 Stocking Weaver Scotland
Ann Daur Un 16 Scholar Scotland
John Son Un 14 / Scotland
Alexander Son Un 12 Scholar Newcastle on Tyne DOB c. 1849
Robert Son Un 9 Scholar Newcastle on Tyne


1871 Census - would like more proof this is the correct family!
Prudhoe Street, St Andrew, Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland
Archive reference RG10 Piece number 5088 Folio 6 Page 5
Francis Bell Head Mar 60 Marine Store Dealer Scotland
Mary Wife Mar 62? Scotland
Ann Daur Unm 21 Wool Carder Scotland
Alexander Son Unm 18 Labourer Newcastle DOB 1853
Robert Son Unm 16 Marine Store Dealer Newcastle

1881 Census
Alexander Bell Head Mar 28 -? Labourer -? Newcastle on Tyne DOB 1853
Mary A Wife Mar 24 Newcastle on Tyne
John J Son 9 Newcastle on Tyne
Mary A Daughter 5 Newcastle on Tyne
Catherine Daughter 1 Newcastle on Tyne

I can't find the family in 1891.

In 1895 Mary Ann Bell, the mother, married Frederick George T Sinton.
She is with him in 1901 and 1911 with him using the name George. They had 2 further children.

I need a death for Alexander Bell.

[kiterunner]

Looking at the Newcastle entries on Dusty Docs, a lot of the parish entries say "now removed from FamilySearch". I think you will have to order the marriage cert.

[ElizabethHerts]

Thanks for looking, Kate.

[ElizabethHerts]

George Sinton and Mary Ann (Harley/Dougall/Bell) had the following children:

SINTON, GEORGE HARLEY
GRO Reference: 1892 S Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 128

SINTON, MARGARET ALEXANDER HARLEY
GRO Reference: 1894 D Quarter in NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE Volume 10B Page 139

I found them on the 1891 Census, with Mary Ann's children recorded as Sinton.

The previous marriage I had must be incorrect.

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1891%2F0028918821

[Phoenix]

I assume John J Bell is John James Harley b 1893?

There don't seem to be any birth registrations after 1879. Pity we can't search by MMN as I bet that whatever happened to Alexander, she was with someone else by 1891.

[Phoenix]

Oh, poor John James! I wonder what details he gave if he married!

[ElizabethHerts]

John James Harley

HARLEY, JOHN JAMES -
GRO Reference: 1873 D Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B


Mary Ann Harley married William Dougall in the same quarter - was he William's son.

1881 - John J Bell on census.
1891 - John J Sinton on census.

[ElizabethHerts]

In 1901 the Sinton family have David Harley, brother-in-law, staying with them.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7814/images/NBLRG13_4787_4788-0187?pId=30644566

[Phoenix]

It's a bit hard to be known by three different surnames, and none of them your biological father's. Though what was said to the enumerator wasn't necessarily what you were known by.

Interesting that Mary Ann had more than a whole decade without any children. It suggests that Alexander was either ill, in prison or at sea. I wonder how she coped?

[ElizabethHerts]

It's a bit hard to be known by three different surnames, and none of them your biological father's. Though what was said to the enumerator wasn't necessarily what you were known by.

Interesting that Mary Ann had more than a whole decade without any children. It suggests that Alexander was either ill, in prison or at sea. I wonder how she coped?

It's taken my a lot of detective work to get this far, Phoenix!
When I first did this research there was no MMN on the GRO index but once I found

BELL, CATHERINE HARLEY
GRO Reference: 1879 S Quarter in NEWCASTLE ON TYNE Volume 10B Page 99

I realised that Mary Ann must have been married before as she married Alexander Bell with the MN of Dougall.

[Phoenix]

I can well imagine! I can't find any convincing candidates for David and Mary Ann as children unless David's dob is wildly out, one of their birthplaces is wrong, or like John James, they grew up under different surnames.

[Phoenix]

Ages are very different to censuses, but these look like Mary Ann and her siblings, children of William and Ann Harley:
HARLEY, ELEANOR JANE LITTLE
GRO Reference: 1860 S Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 49
HARLEY, ISABELLA LITTLE
GRO Reference: 1861 D Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 52
HARLEY, MARY ANN LITTLE
GRO Reference: 1858 J Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 43
HARLEY, SARAH JANE LITTLE
GRO Reference: 1864 J Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 59
HARLEY, DAVID LITTLE
GRO Reference: 1863 M Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 100
HARLEY, WILLIAM LITTLE
GRO Reference: 1866 M Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 130
HARLEY, JOHN GEORGE LITTLE
GRO Reference: 1868 M Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 64
HARLEY, GEORGINA LITTLE
GRO Reference: 1871 D Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 92
HARLEY, ISABELLA MARY LITTLE
GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 59
HARLEY, MARGARET LITTLE
GRO Reference: 1871 D Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 92
HARLEY, CATHERINE LITTLE
GRO Reference: 1873 D Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 112

[Phoenix]

That would make this the family in 1861:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBC%2F1861%2F3822%2F00536A&parentid=GBC%2F1861%2F0019508128

William Harley Head
Married Male 26 1835 Porter Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland, England
Ann Harley Wife
Married Female 28 1833 - Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland, England
Ann Harley Daughter
- Female 3 1858 - Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland, England
Eleanor Jane Harley Daughter
- Female 1 1860 - Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland, England

[Mary from Italy]

The marriage locator website doesn't have the place of marriage, so it was probably a Register Office:

http://www.marriage-locator.co.uk

[Phoenix]

And in 1871:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBC%2F1871%2F5101%2F0102&parentid=GBC%2F1871%2F0021026428

William Hasley Head
- Male 37 1834 - Northumberland, England
Ann Hasley Wife
- Female 38 1833 - Northumberland, England
Ann Hasley Daughter
- Female 13 1858 - Northumberland, England
David Hasley Son
- Male 8 1863 - Northumberland, England
Sarah Jane Hasley Daughter
- Female 7 1864 - Northumberland, England
William Hasley Son
- Male 5 1866 - Northumberland, England
Isabella Hasley Daughter
- Female 2 1869 - Northumberland, England
George Little Brother-in-law
- Male 44 1827 - Northumberland, England

Hasley is the enumerator's error.

[ElizabethHerts]

Wow, Phoenix, you've been busy while I have been watching Winterwatch! Many thanks, I'll check it out.

[ElizabethHerts]

The marriage certificate has just arrived.

Alexander's father was Francis, as expected.
Alexander was 23 years old.

Mary Ann Dougall was a widow, only 18!
Her father was William Harley, Cartman, as deduced above.

They married in the Register Office.

It's odd with Alexander's age.
Were there two Alexanders born to Francis and his wife?

In 1851 they have Alexander aged 3 and John aged 1.
In 1861 John is 14 and Alexander 12 - did they mix the two boys and there ages up?

If Alexander was 23 on marriage - 22nd March 1875 - then he was born in 1851/1852.

The only birth registrations I have found are

BELL, ALEXANDER GIBSON
GRO Reference: 1850 J Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE UNION Volume 25 Page 409

BELL, ALEXANDER MCKENZIE
GRO Reference: 1850 J Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS UNION Volume 24 Page 242

BELL, ALEXANDER MCKENZIE
GRO Reference: 1852 J Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS UNION Volume 10A Page 364

In 1851 the family was at Quality Row, Newcastle upon Tyne, so the South Shields births shouldn't be correct.

I'm still confused!

[ElizabethHerts]

In 1861 the youngest child, Robert, is 9.

So this could be him (they weren't very good at exact ages).

BELL, ROBERT GIBSON
GRO Reference: 1852 S Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 80

Gibson for the mmn again.

[kiterunner]

According to Ancestry's transcriptions, on the 1841 Scottish census there is a Francis Bell age 28 at Ecclefechan, Dumfriesshire, Stocking M I, born Dumfriesshire, with household members including Mary Bell, 31, Mary Bell, 3, Elizabeth Bell, 1, and other people. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/1010002:1004?_phsrc=Ctf25731&_phstart=successSource&gsfn=fran*&gsln=bell&ml_rpos=9&queryId=bf99b59284775b35dbffde7376c7284e

I was hoping to find the older Bell children in the church records on Scotland's People to see mother's name but no luck so far.

[ElizabethHerts]

Thanks, Kate. I can't find a Bell - Gibson marriage for the life of me.

I've been searching Scotlands People too, with no success so far.

Bell Francis 28 Hoddon Dumfreis 829/1/9
Bell Elizabeth 1 same place 829/1/1

[ElizabethHerts]

BELL
ELIZABETH GALLO
FRANCIS BELL/JANET WELLS FR524 (FR524)
F
28/02/1839
840/
30 114
Lochmaben

That's the only Elizabeth d. of Francis I can find.

[ElizabethHerts]

FMI has transcribed the 1841 Scottish census.

Francis Bell 28 Born Dumfriesshire
Mary Bell 31 Born Dumfriesshire
Mary Bell 3 Born England
Elizabeth Bell 1 Born Dumfriesshire

Mary Scott 7 1937 Scotland
John Anderson 30 Scotland
David Moffat 17 Dumfriesshire
Thomas Bell 55 Dumfriesshire - father??
Jannet Bell 11 England


Little Mary was born in England but I haven't found her.

[ElizabethHerts]

This could be Francis' birth:

BELL
FRANCIS
THOMAS BELL/DORATHAT FISHER FR139 (FR139)
M
25/10/1812
829/
10 133
Hoddom

I have looked for a marriage in England for Francis, but no luck so far.

[ElizabethHerts]

This family are very vague on dates and ages.

[ElizabethHerts]

The Hoddom family tie in.

On Alexander's marriage certificate there were two witnesses:
James Johnson
Elizabeth Bell Johnson

with a line through the word Bell.

I can't find a marriage between Elizabeth Bell and James Johnson.
Perhaps I should try Johnston.