A possible chink in a brick wall?

[Sue from Southend]

James Froude and Elizabeth Gaitt marry in 1843 @ St Leonard's, Shoreditch.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1623/images/31280_197287-00172?pId=5586521

The witnesses are my 3x gt grandparents Charles James Chapman and Martha Chapman.http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=8503&highlight=charles+james+chapman

Tracing Elizabeth Gaitt's parents I've discovered that her parents were James Gaitt and Sarah Ramsby https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/2063599:1623?tid=110336234&pid=222206103884&queryId=704ff62c1992d8a74090be338364fcd8&_phsrc=rSH240&_phstart=successSource

Charles Chapman and Martha named one of their sons William Rumsby Chapman, a spelling/transcription mistake in one of the records perhaps?
I have a few shared matches with descendants of James and Sarah and one of these trees has "given" them a daughter, Martha, baptised as the daughter of James and Sarah Gates in 1802 which would work perfectly for "my" Martha however I still cannot find a marriage for Charles James Chapman and Martha.

Can any one find anything that may confirm that Martha Chapman is the daughter of James and Sarah Gaitt?

[Sue from Southend]

Charles James Chapman is also a witness at the marriage of Mary Gaitt to John Litherland in 1835 https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1623/images/31280_194760-00204?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=e0f0498d5fb30c3bce061b511fc811e6&pId=6409412

[ElizabethHerts]

I've found the baptism for Martha.

2nd entry on the left-hand page.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1624/images/31281_a101336-00082?usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&pId=156149800

I haven't found the marriage.

[Sue from Southend]

Thanks Elizabeth.

I had found the baptism, I just have some misgivings because of the surname but Gaitt is of course open to all sorts of misspellings and mistranscriptions.

I have looked for years at this marriage Charles Chapman to Martha Gooch https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1623/images/31280_197571-00029?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=64bc79c395357262e6c389137ef49aef&pId=3096024 but it is very hard make it Gaitt - Martha's signature clearly says Gooch and it is 10 years after the birth of first child.

[Merry]

This marriage:

Sarah Ann Gaitt
7 Dec 1829 St Dunstan and All Saints, Stepney Benjamin Meek

is also witnessed by Charles James Chapman.

That's the first and only one I have looked at so far!

[Merry]

Re the Chapman/Gooch marriage - I hoped to eliminate that by finding GRO births for that combination of surnames and then finding the 'other' family on the census, but (I only looked the first five years afte 1837) there are no registrations to fit! I agree that it doesn't look particularly promising unless Martha Gooch wasn't a spinster and that was your Martha's previous married surname, which seems reasonably unlikely, but it would be good to get rid of them for sure!

[Merry]

What about this birth for some proof of your couple's names?

CHAPMAN, MARTHA JANE mmn GAITT
GRO Reference: 1840 M Quarter in SAINT LUKE MIDDLESEX Volume 02 Page 248

the baby was registered for death in Q1 1841.

[Merry]

I was just looking to see what James Gaitt's occupation was, so looked at this post 1812 baptism for his son:

John Frederic Gaitt
25 Oct 1813 St Leonard, Shoreditch Hackney James, Sarah

only to find they also lived at The Land Of Promise, be it a lot earlier than when Charles and Martha lived there! I wonder what it was really like?!

[Merry]

James and Sarah are together in 1841 (James as shoemaker). He is listed as James Gates b 1781. James was buried in 1850. Sarah is on the the 1851 listed as Sarah Gart b 1783. The image could def be Gait and she is a shoe binder which seems reasonable. She was bur 1859.

None of which helps with the marriage of Charles and Martha!

Was their first child b 1826? I could only find baptisms from 1828. You have their address as Tyssen St, Bethnal Green from 1826.

[Merry]

The Land of Promise was the site of Shoreditch Workhouse, opened in 1777. :(

https://www.theundergroundmap.com/article.html?id=98991&zoom=13&annum=1830

[Sue from Southend]

You have been busy, Merry thank you.

The birth registration looks very promising and I'll apply for a copy of the certificate. In yet another thread about Charles and Martha you lamented the fact that they hadn't had any children after 1837 and I've become so used to the fact that there were none that I didn't think to check yesterday! Lesson learned.

The Land of Promise seems to be the local name for the Workhouse! Although I have vague memories of Googling it years ago and finding something a little different. Something else to be investigated.

If you look at the image of Mary Ann Chapman's 1828 baptism it gives a birth date of May 1826. So I would guess a marriage would have been around that time.

[Merry]

That's interesting that Mary Ann was bap aged about 2 1/2 years. Were their other children baptised as toddlers or don't you know? (I couldn't see a baptism for Martha b 1840, though she must have lived around a year) I wonder if Mary Ann was born before her parents married? (not that it helps much!).

[Sue from Southend]

One son doesn't seem to have been baptised at all, two others baptised as infants and one other aged 3 years. So no pattern. The last two baptisms are where the address is given as Land of Promise so it may have been a requirement of the WH.

[Merry]

I suppose whether Charles and Martha were legally married or not may not make a hug difference to your tree now. If you had the marriage there's only a slim chance of an identifiable relation being a witness and so you wouldn't have much more to go on to prove Martha is the baby bap in 1802. You are doing well already with the 1840 birth cert and the fact that CJC is a witness on those Gaitt marriages (I'm presuming they are siblings of 1802 Martha?), along with that middle name Ramsby? on your line.

[Sue from Southend]

You're right, of course Merry that I'm unlikely to get much more proof of Martha's parentage and subject to the birth cert of Martha (1840) I'd be fairly confident to claim James and Sarah as 4 xgt grandparents. The DNA matches help too of course - I wouldn't have found the Gaitt connection without them.

Thank you once again, Merry:)

[Merry]

The DNA matches help too of course

lol Yes, I forgot about that!

[Sue from Southend]

Possibly the quickest ever birth certificate! Ordered Sunday, received this afternoon Martha Jane's birth certificate confirms that her parents were Charles James Chapman, whip mounter and Martha Chapman, nee Gaitt.

Very chuffed to get my tree back another generation or two, thank you once again Merry!!