View Full Version : Richard Wright - UPDATE
My paternal grandfather's brother murdered his fiance, but I can't find any record of it!
Well, my one was supposed to have murdered his fiance 'cos he found out she was two-timing him. Got the death sentence, but then had it reduced to 30 years in prison, which he served and was then released. I cannot find anything out about it though, so wonder how true it was.
Durham Lady
24-01-10, 14:57
Have you tried this site Stella, that's where mine came to light
http://www.blacksheepancestors.com/
Yes Daphne - have tried that one, but thanks all the same.
Stella - give us some info I am dying to find out about this!
Stella - give us some info I am dying to find out about this!
Oh dear Nell, it will be almost impossible to research, as I have such sketchy info about it. I am not even sure if the murder took place here in the UK or in France/Belgium! LOL His name is Richard Wright (known as Dick), brother of Robert Wright b1879. He was born in Harrogate, Yorkshire, don't know yet when. This murder took place either during or just after WW1 - he was a soldier in that. He had a gun still, so I am told, and shot her. Do not even know her name. My late Mum said he did 30 years in Maidstone prison (but Mum's memory was a bit bad! LOL). His parents were still living in Harrogate when all this happened.
Margaret in Burton
25-01-10, 17:57
Oh dear Nell, it will be almost impossible to research, as I have such sketchy info about it. I am not even sure if the murder took place here in the UK or in France/Belgium! LOL His name is Richard Wright (known as Dick), son of Robert Wright b1879 and Mabel Clifford b1885. He was born in Harrogate, Yorkshire, don't know yet when. This murder took place either during or just after WW1 - he was a soldier in that. He had a gun still, so I am told, and shot her. Do not even know her name. My late Mum said he did 30 years in Maidstone prison (but Mum's memory was a bit bad! LOL). His parents were still living in Harrogate when all this happened.
Have you found them on the 1911 census?
Robrt Wright and Mabel Clifford didn't marry until 1907.
If I'm looking at the right people in 1911 there's:
Robert 1879
Mabel 1886
Alfred Clifford 1908
Evelyn 1910
So no Richard by that date.....
Margaret in Burton
25-01-10, 18:11
I've just found them Merry
Mabel certainly isn't old enough to have a son serve in WW1 is she?
Margaret in Burton
25-01-10, 18:14
I can't find Robert in 1901
Sure it wasn't WW2 he served in?
Births Jun 1921
WRIGHT Robert R Clifford Knaresbro' 9a 181
Name: Robert Richard Wright
Birth Date: 3 Apr 1921
Death Registration Month/Year: Oct 1999
Age at death (estimated): 78
Registration district: North Yorkshire
Inferred County: North Yorkshire
Register number: D2
District and Subdistrict: 6501D
Entry number: 126
Margaret in Burton
25-01-10, 18:21
The only Richard Wright I can find born in Harrogate (maybe) which would be Knaresborough district was born in 1885. Sep qtr 9a 117
Margaret in Burton
25-01-10, 18:23
Sure it wasn't WW2 he served in?
Good thought
Not having any luck with any more on this now and have to go and hear dau play the piano!
Deaths of parents:
Name: Mabel Wright
Death Registration Month/Year: 1959
Age at death (estimated): 73
Registration district: Claro
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 2c
Page: 147
Name: Robert Wright
Death Registration Month/Year: 1948
Age at death (estimated): 69
Registration district: Claro
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 2c
Page: 66
So the incident happened before 1948.
Hmm....there are two marriages for a Robert R Wright in Claro district in 1951 and 1962. Might not be him of course, but doesn't tally with 30 years in Maidstone.
Oh dear, sorry everyone. I made a complete mess of my post about this. I have been back and edited it. You have the correct Wright family, but Richard was the BROTHER of Robert Wright, therefore Mabel's brother-in-law. I am so sorry about that - don't know what on earth I was thinking of!
Margaret in Burton
25-01-10, 20:31
So was he the one born in 1885 then?
Margaret, I no longer have Ancestry, so I am not sure. I know that in 1901 he was in Harrogate at an address in Chatsworth Place with his parents, William and Eliza Wright.
Margaret in Burton
25-01-10, 22:54
Margaret, I no longer have Ancestry, so I am not sure. I know that in 1901 he was in Harrogate at an address in Chatsworth Place with his parents, William and Eliza Wright.
Are you sure that was 1901 Stella?
I've just done an address search for 1901 on FMP and looked at 60 addresses on Chatsworth Place. They're not there.
Are you sure that was 1901 Stella?
I've just done an address search for 1901 on FMP and looked at 60 addresses on Chatsworth Place. They're not there.
They were at 8 Chatsworth Place in 1891!
Richard was the BROTHER of Robert Wright
lol I wish I had come back to this thread at 9.30 last night!! (ie before trawling the newspapers again for AFTER 1939!)
Marg, Richard is already in the overseas military in 1911. Can you have a look to see if there's any indication of his regiment or anything?
Margaret in Burton
26-01-10, 09:05
They were at 8 Chatsworth Place in 1891!
lol I wish I had come back to this thread at 9.30 last night!! (ie before trawling the newspapers again for AFTER 1939!)
Marg, Richard is already in the overseas military in 1911. Can you have a look to see if there's any indication of his regiment or anything?
OK, just let me make another cuppa and I'll take a look.
Margaret in Burton
26-01-10, 09:16
Richard Wright - Private - single - aged 25 born in Harrogate
Institution: 1st Battalion The Prince Of Wales Own West Yorkshire Regt,
1st Battalion The Prince of Wales Own (West Yorkshire Regiment)
Connaught Barracks, Rawalpindi, Punjab, India
RG14PN34987 RD641 SD12 ED2 SN9999
I'm wondering if this medal card is his?
Richard Wright
1st West Yorkshire Regiment
8145
4523662
Mainly because it's the only one that has dates before 1914 and is also 1st West Yorks.
Not that knowing those numbers has helped anywhere else as yet!!
Oh thank you all for taking a look at this, and I am so sorry Margaret and everyone for wasting your time at the beginning. I honestly think it is a hopeless task trying to find out about this murder, as I was told about it by my late mother and it's possible she got a lot of her facts wrong. I do remember going to see this Richard with my father - his nephew, Alfred Wright b1908 when I was very young - he had, I believe just got out of prison and was back in Harrogate.
I do remember going to see this Richard
Do you know roughly when that would have been?
Doesn't look as if he died in Harrogate.
Only just seen this .... can't find anything helpful, but don't think you've given his year of birth .... c1887
I thought this one was him, Rachel?
Births Sep 1886
Wright Richard Knaresbro' 9a 117
Oh, lol that was clever!! pmsl!
Margaret in Burton
26-01-10, 10:58
Only just seen this .... can't find anything helpful, but don't think you've given his year of birth .... c1887
Richard Wright, Knaresborough, Sep qtr 1886 9a 117.
He is also 25 on the 1911 census
Rachel's post said 1883 when I looked.
Snap Merry
Rachel's post said 1883 when I looked.
That's cos I'm sleepy today and can't count backwards ;(
I did correct it immediately after posting
Do you know roughly when that would have been?
It would possibly have been roughly between 1945 and 1950 and in Harrogate.
There are no suitable deaths in Harrogate, so I wonder if this is him?
Name: Richard Wright
Death Registration Month/Year: 1958 Q1
Age at death (estimated): 71
Registration district: Leeds
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 2c
Page: 446
Age is spot on and this is the only death in Yorkshire very close for age. (I only looked at the ones without a middle name.) Obviously he might not have died in Yorkshire, but I'm not going there! lol
Apparently Maidstone jail destroy their records after a max of 20 years, so they won't be any help. If only we could trace his army record we might be in with a chance of info, but I've looked at all the likely ones on Ancestry without any luck. As he was a professional soldier I suppose it's possible he was still in the army after WW1 and if the incident with his girlfriend occured in 1922 or after then his army record will be a the MoD and only available to next of kin (once his death cert has been sorted). Trouble is, without a date for the death of his fiancée we could be stuck on that front.
Odd to think that if he had been hanged he would be more traceable. (not that I'm wishing that on him)......though 30 years in jail must have been bad and imagine coming out after such a long time. Do you remember him clearly, Stella?
Olde Crone
26-01-10, 14:37
If he did 30 years and was out by 1950 at the latest, then the window of opportunity is quite narrow, lol..between 1911 (or 1915) and 1920.
A 30 year sentence would have attracted newspaper coverage, so I wonder if that's the way to go?
OC
You would think so, wouldn't you.
OC - if he was in the army and abroad when the crime was committed, do you think he would have ended up in Maidstone jail? I feel he would have been stuck somewhere abroad, but don't know...............
A 30 year sentence would have attracted newspaper coverage, so I wonder if that's the way to go?
OC
I've tried all sorts of searched in The Times, with no luck yet.
This is the best (only!? :rolleyes:) fit so far:
The Times 11th Feb 1925:
A Cologne message says that the trial of Private Wright for the murder of Lance-Corporal Whitman and Maria Stasiak, which had lasted six days, ended yesterday. Sentence will be promulgated later. - Reuter.
Ooooh, it IS the right one!!! Armed with her name I then searched again......
The Times 5th Feb 1925
The trial by General Court-Martial of Private Richard Wright, West Yorkshire Regiment, on the charge of murdering Lance-Corporal Whitman, Cameron Highlanders and a German girl named Maria Stasiak, has been opened in Cologne.
This second snippet doesn't come up if you search the words Richard Wright, which is why I didn't find it before.
Oh dear than Stella - he seems to have killed two people. Probably a love triangle?
The date means his army record will be at the MoD.
Margaret in Burton
26-01-10, 15:06
Brilliant work Merry, well done
Oooh, there's a bit more......hang on whilst I transcribe.....lol (two fingers!)
The Times 4th March 1925
Private Wright (West Yorkshire Regiment), a soldier of the British Army of the Rhine, who was recently found Guilty and sentenced to death for the murder at Cologne of Maria Stasiak, a German girl, and Lance Corporal Whitwan (sic), has had his sentence commuted to penal servitude for life. The defence at the Court-martial was "pathalogical drunkeness" - Reuter.
Margaret in Burton
26-01-10, 15:19
Who needs professional researchers when we have Merry.
Margaret in Burton
26-01-10, 15:20
See Stella
Your mum did have it right.
OH MY GOD Merry!! I can't believe you have found this so quickly - I am shaking with excitement now, all of a dither. There was RUMOUR that he actually killed TWO people, but I found this hard to believe, but it was true then! All I heard from my mother was that he found his fiance in a compromising situation (anyone's guess) with another man. It was rumoured he shot them both! I can't believe it - oh my God!! I went with my father to visit him in Harrogate - he was known as Uncle Dick and seemed such a nice old man (well old to me) and all I remember was he lived in an upstairs flat and as we left he gave me some sweets and waved at us as we left. How sad. He was sentenced to death I know, but had this reduced on appeal to 30 years imprisonment. I can't thank you all enough, especially you Merry.
Rosie Knees
26-01-10, 15:32
*wow*!
And I think finally.....
The Times 24th Dec 1924
BRITISH SOLDIER KILLED IN RHINELAND
(FROM OUR RHINELAND CORRESPONDENT) COLOGNE DEC 23rd
Lance Corporal Whitham (not sure how I've spelled his name previously, but this is clear!), of the 2nd Battalion, Cameron Highlanders, was shot dead last night in a cafe near Mulheim Barracks, and a German girl named Maria Stasiak, who was with him was so severely wounded that her life is despaired of. Four British soldiers are under arrest in connexion with the affair. A court of inquiry was held this morning. It is suggested that jealousy was the motive for the crime.
Merry, would it be possible for me to get a copy of that newspaper somehow? Also, would it not have been in the 'Yorkshire Post' newspaper, seeing as the Wrights were a Harrogate family and, I believe, quite well-known. Richard's brother Robert (my grandad) was an Army man nearly all his life and held a high-ranking position. My printer is out of action, so would love a copy of all that somehow. My late mother did say it was classed as a 'crime of passion' which is why he wasn't hung.
Margaret in Burton
26-01-10, 15:35
The GF medal of the MONTH goes to Merry
Absolutely brilliant detective work.
Margaret in Burton
26-01-10, 15:37
Merry could perhaps do screenshots if it's not possible to do print outs from the Times?
lol You lot!
Son wants to go on the lap top now and I have to take dau to brownies soon, so if you pm me your email addy Stella, I can send you the clippings later on tonight.
I have sent you a pm Merry. Thank you, thank you to everyone else who helped. I still can't believe it. I have been stewing about this for a few years, thinking my poor old late mother was exaggerating or getting confused! Sorry Mum. :d
What on earth is Pathological Drunkeness? Was he actually intoxicated at the time? Anyone heard of it please?
Mary from Italy
26-01-10, 16:05
I would think it means he was an alcoholic.
Oh dear Mary - really? I'm surprised he was kept in the Army so long in that case.
I nipped in whilst son is eating his tea, so snippets sent.
I wonder what info Richard's army record would hold? Bit pricy at £30.......
FABULOUS
Absolutely Superb ....
Would it be classed as a Crime of Passion now ?
ElizabethHerts
26-01-10, 17:04
WOW!
I haven't been on much today as I have been busy otherwise -
First prize to Merry!
I turn my back for a couple of hours and look what happens!
Stella, I bet you are thrilled!
Elizabeth, thrilled is an understatement!! Merry, How do I get hold of his Army record please. I don't mind paying £30.
Blimey an alcoholic murderer in your tree Stella! Well done Merry - were you a detective in a former life?
Alright Peter - don't tell everybody! LOL
Stella, to get his army record you should really be his next of kin as you have to sign a declaration to that effect. Before that though you have to get his death cert as the MoD require a copy (see what I say below though). I don't know if that Leeds one could be him - is there anyone else in the family who would know?
Anyway if you look here:
http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/army.html
that page tells you who to contact and there is a place to download the next of kin form. I can't see that it says you have to send a copy of the death cert and obviously anyone born in 1886 is going to be dead now, but they may have some daft rules! I am certain that someone else I helped with getting army records struggled because they didn't know when their fairly immediate relative died, due to an estrangement, but I don't remember what happened in the end.
I posted a couple of possible army record numbers earlier, but those may not be him, so I wouldn't muddy the waters with those. You have his regimental details which I would think would be enough, along with knowing he was serving from 1911 to 1925 as a minimum. It doesn't matter if his service was broken - his service records should all be together (my grandfather served in WW1 and WW2 and his stuff all came from the MoD despite him being a civilian in between.)
Good luck - I hope you can get the army records as there might be more trial details and also other conduct info might be of interest, plus what postings he had etc.
Olde Crone
26-01-10, 17:53
Oooh, well done Merry!
(But, uhmmmmmm...how on earth did he finish up in a British jail, Maidstone no less, when this was a crime committed on foreign soil and tried by Court Martial, not the British judiciary? There's more to find out here I reckon Stella!)
OC
Wow, how wonderful!
Maybe the Army records would answer those questions OC ?
Mary from Italy
26-01-10, 18:25
Also, would it not have been in the 'Yorkshire Post' newspaper, seeing as the Wrights were a Harrogate family and, I believe, quite well-known.
Very likely, but it isn't online as far as I know.
Bradford Archives were very helpful in finding reports of a trial for me a while ago - as you know the date of the trial, you could try e-mailing Leeds or Harrogate archives to see if they can help.
;(wonderful work Merry ,now as you are so good about my GUTTENTAGS !!!!!!!!!!!
maggie_4_7
26-01-10, 18:32
Oooh, well done Merry!
(But, uhmmmmmm...how on earth did he finish up in a British jail, Maidstone no less, when this was a crime committed on foreign soil and tried by Court Martial, not the British judiciary? There's more to find out here I reckon Stella!)
OC
ooooh well done Merry.
He wouldn't spend time in a foreign jail if he was court martialled by the British Army. If he hadn't been in the army the German authorities would have prosecuted him not Britain and he would have been in a German prison.
Maidstone has a big army barracks and has had for a few hundred years I think. Which might explain why he was there.
Mary from Italy
26-01-10, 18:58
This article looks interesting, because it contains some background information about the British Army on the Rhine, but you have to pay to read it. I've managed to get part of the snippet, which mainly repeats the Times article.
This essay explores the social history of the “British Army of the Rhine,” especially their interactions with the German population, over the eleven-year period of occupation in Cologne and part of the Rhineland. It covers the initial, sometimes fraught establishment of the occupation and interactions with the civil population, especially the perennial problem of British soldiers' relations with German women. These were initially prohibited altogether, but the rule was quickly relaxed, and the British authorities even accepted and regulated the use of brothels, leading to criticisms back home. The essay also discusses the comparatively small number of serious violent crimes (including four murders) during the occupation, and concludes that the occupation was characterized on both sides by grudging acceptance and some degree of forbearance.
...
In December 1924, a Private Wright of the West Yorkshire Regiment, shot dead Lance-Corporal Whitham of the Cameron Highlanders (an ill- starred regiment, it seems), and so badly wounded “a German girl name Marie Stasiak, who was with him,” that she later died. It was sug-gested in The Times “that jealousy was the motive of the crime.” At his court- martial Wright's defense was “pathological drunken-ness.” He was sentenced to death, but also had his sentence commuted, this time to life. Du Cane believed it “very undesirable to have a soldier shot by a firing party in the circumstances.”89. Both these “crimes of passion” might have occurred as easily in a British garrison town. A more ambiguous case occurred in 1928 when ....
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=%22+Lance-Corporal+Whitham%22&btnG=Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=
Mary from Italy
26-01-10, 19:10
What looks like the same article also appears on Google book search:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=HeMhAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Lance-Corporal+Whitham%22&dq=%22Lance-Corporal+Whitham%22&cd=1
Mary from Italy
26-01-10, 19:19
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Philip_Du_Cane
Thanks Merry, will try and get his army record. Thank you for all the info you have posted too Mary - really interesting.:)
Well done Merry - from rumour and old woman's stories to fact. I'm impressed.
Cam I ask if you have a subscription to the times or is it free through the library?
Last time I looked at my library it seemed to stop about 1900.
Free through the library. The dates are 1785 to 1985. I also asked the local authority if they were thinking of having any of the other Gale newspaper collections and now I can get some local papers 1800-1900 too. :)
Oh it's a pity they don't go up to, say, 1930 Merry 'cos then I could have got the local Harrogate paper!
Oh it's a pity they don't go up to, say, 1930 Merry 'cos then I could have got the local Harrogate paper!
I think it only has the Leeds Mercury for Yorkshire. :( Edit: and some for Hull.
I have access to the Guardian archives and there are several articles about the case including about his family attending the trial. I'm happy to send them by email if you would like them but I should warn you that some of them are quite detailed
That's very interesting that some of his family were at the trial.
Durham Lady
27-01-10, 10:56
Wow, well done Merry on finding all that. I know how you must be feeling Stella I was on cloud 9 when I had help finding the truth in the family rumour about my g uncle. Cried buckets when I read of his hanging though.
I have access to the Guardian archives and there are several articles about the case including about his family attending the trial. I'm happy to send them by email if you would like them but I should warn you that some of them are quite detailed
Ooh Jackie, yes please!! Would love to see it all. I will pm you my email address. Thank you! :)
Daphne, I still cannot get my head round it all. Never thought he had really shot TWO people - and to think I met him when I was very young too, after his release from prison.
Ooh Jackie, yes please!! Would love to see it all. I will pm you my email address. Thank you! :)
Emails all sent
Thanks Jackie - waiting for them, don't know how long they take to come through.
Makes quite harrowing reading so far - still got more to come yet. Won't really need his Army records now I don't think.
Margaret in Burton
27-01-10, 14:42
Makes quite harrowing reading so far - still got more to come yet. Won't really need his Army records now I don't think.
Any chance of posting some of it on here Stella, be very interesting.
Any chance of posting some of it on here Stella, be very interesting.
Marg, I am hopeless with the computer, so I will ask Jackie if she could kindly do that for me. HELP Jackie!:d please.
I'm back!
I think the best thing (especially because of copyright etc.) would be for you (Stella) to post an outline of what else you've got rather than try to put actual bits of newspaper on. I don't know how much you want to put on a public forum - it wouldn't really bother me if it were my family but that's up to you.
Alternatively, I could - with your permission - send the articles on to anyone else who is interested. They're already in my email sent box so it would be quite easy to forward them on.
Let me know what you think
It's absolutely fine to post up a single article from a newspaper edition. (or several from several editions!)
I'm back!
I think the best thing (especially because of copyright etc.) would be for you (Stella) to post an outline of what else you've got rather than try to put actual bits of newspaper on. I don't know how much you want to put on a public forum - it wouldn't really bother me if it were my family but that's up to you.
Alternatively, I could - with your permission - send the articles on to anyone else who is interested. They're already in my email sent box so it would be quite easy to forward them on.
Let me know what you think
Jackie, I don't mind at all anyone seeing the articles, but, as I said, I wouldn't have a clue how to post the articles on here. I really think it would be better for folks to see the articles, rather than me try and put it all in one post on here from memory. Sorry to be a pain! You are welcome to put them on here, seeing as Merry says it is OK.
OK - I've got to go out again in a minute and won't be back until about 11pm. In the meantime I'll PM Merry a copy of what it says in the newspaper T & Cs because I get twitchy about these things and I don't really understand it. I'll check back later
I've seen the T&Cs for the site Jackie is using for the Guardian and they sound pretty restrictive (not the same as the ones on The Times etc), so I think maybe if you don't mind, Stella, could you just give info on what you have read? Or, you can quote from the articles like I did yesterday, rather than post up the images.
Sorry to be a pain.
Right, I now have the Guardian articles, courtesy of Jackie and Stella. Stella would like me to tell you what they say, but she has chosen the wrong part of the week as I wouldn't normally be around until tomorrow afternoon and then only for a while until Friday/Sat :).
There are seven articles from the paper to read, so I've decided to read and post about them one at a time, without the benefit of reading the subsequent articles (a bit like a 1925 newspaper reader!)
Ok.....going to read the first one now. Back in a bit.....
(The bits in brackets are my opionions!)
Article 1 - 4th Feb 1925
The charge wa that on the night of 22nd Dec 1924 Private Richard Wright of the West Yorks Regiment murdered Lance Corporal F L Whitman and Maria Stasiak in Maria's kitchen (not in a cafe then)
The accused was represented by Capt A E Kerr VC of the Gordon Highlanders and the prosecution by Captain Park of the Northampton Regiment who was a barrister.
First various legal proceedings such as registering documents and photographs were dealt with. Then Frau Stasiak (Maria's mother) and Maria's sister were examined. The mother became hysterical and needed medical treatment before the court could speak to her. Both of these witnesses said that Pte Wright was most kind to their whole family and they both expressed their high opinion of him. (a surprise!?)
Maria and Richard had been on terms of some intimacy for over two years and he had regularly visited her home. They had been happy until about two and a half months before the tragedy. When Richard was away on manoeuvres Maria was unfaithful, becoming associated with another soldier of the same regiment (presumably not Whitman then?). Subsequently she got to know Lance Corporal Whitman who then supplanted Wright in her affections. This made Richard depressed.
On 22nd Dec whilst sitting in a cafe near the barracks Wright heard that Maria and Whitman were at her home together. He went off without finishing his drink. He returned after about 20 mins and said he had 'done them in' which was taken as a joke by his friends. They all returned to barracks.
Wright told the chief storeman (his boss, he worked in the stores) "It's done now George, it can't be helped" and went to bed. Meanwhile two other soldiers had visited Maria's house and discovered the bodies.
The hearing resumed the following day.
(and I will resume tomorrow!)
It's taken me until now to realise these articles were in the Manchester Guardian and not the national paper! Doh....
In this article Lance Corporal Whitman is spelled Whitwham throughout the article. Forgot to say before, I'm writing in my own words to some degree, but any quotes are as written in the paper.
Article 2 - 5th Feb 1925
First para details the charge against Richard.
Members of the accused's family had arrived overnight and were allowed seats in court except for when Richard was giving evidence.
Major W E Tyndall, Deputy Assist Director of Pathology, gave details of the post mortem on the body of L-C Whitham. There were eight bullet wounds and four bullets were recovered.
Sergeant Coneo of 1st West Yorkshires was on barracks guard duty on the night in question. He said Pte Wright was asleep half an hour after returning to barracks that night, when he was arrested. This witness fainted when pressed about the arrest and was carried from court. He didn not give further evidence.
Lieutenant F J Wallace spoke exceptionally well on the character of the accused. This closed the case for the prosecution.
The defence counsel declared he had applied for nine witnesses living near Leeds. Six had arrived that morning. Those missing were Doctors Walter, Bennet and Williamson. He said if they did not arrive he would have to ask for an adjournment which the court accepted.
Private Wright's evidence: He joined the WY regiment in 1906. He suffered an attack of sunstroke in India. He served in France throughout the war and was once blown up by a shell and buried for an hour. He said he had loved Maria Stasiak for two years and was on terms of utmost intimacy with her. He was worried about her other friendships, but didn't become suspicious until her sister asked him, "Where did you keep Maria until 7am this morning?" He forgave Maria.
He said on the night of the 22nd he had set out for Maria's house but returned to barracks to fetch a revolver for self protection as there was a sinister gang on the street corner. At Maria's house he found Maria and L-C Whitman kissing. He turned to leave but L-C W said to him "Ask Maria why I am here tonight" to which he replied "I don't want to know anything". L-C then said "I'll give you half a minute to get out of here you ----." Witness made a similar comment and L-C W raised his fist apparently with the intention of striking witness. Witness stated "I had my hand in my pocket and shot him before I knew what I had really done. I only remember firing once. The next thing I remember was being spoken to be a German who was going to the cafe. I also remember going to the cafe. I remember nothing more until I heard a knocking on the door of the storeroom."
On being cross examined the prisioner stated his sister Hester was an inmate of an asylum and his brother Charles had died insane in 1919.
Press Association Foreign Special.
EIGHT bullets in W's body ? and the bullets from a revolver ? hmmmmmmm :(
Wouldn't he have to reload ?
During the time taken to reload, should rational thought have intervened ? or does that take longer ? how long does the 'red mist' last ?
Mary from Italy
28-01-10, 13:18
There were eight bullet wounds and four bullets were recovered.
Maybe they were entry and exit wounds from four bullets?
Maybe they were entry and exit wounds from four bullets?
Oh yes .... good thinking
Perhaps it will be revealed in episode 3 :)
He also shot Maria, so used bullets there too don't forget!
He also shot Maria, so used bullets there too don't forget!
Well if the 8 bullet wounds were entry and exit wounds then that should leave 2 bullets for Maria ..... unless she was standing directly behind or in front of W, or they ricocheted off something :confused: ;( :D
another possibility is that W had a machine gun with him and RW used that
Article 3 - 6th Feb 1925
The prisoner underwent a severe examination lasting 45 minutes, mainly regarding his assertion that his mind was almost blank concerning the events of the day of the tragedy. On 23rd Dec he was taken to the hospital to see Maria Stasiak, which was when his memory returned. He thought she was suffering from shock as he didn't realise she was wounded, only learning she was shot when evidence was taken on 27th Dec.
Wright said he took the gun as the gang on the street corner were antagonistic towards him because he had, on numerous occasions, ordered Maria to leave certain cafes. He said he was only two minutes in Fraulein Stasiak's house and did not aim deliberately, just pulled out the revolver and fired. He didn't remember saying "I've done it, they are both dead". He said he had promised to marry Maria and blamed himself for her liason which had come about as he had left them together.
Several of Richard's family were called to testify to his strange mentality and somnambulistic habits (he sleepwalked) when young. His brother Robert (ex-company Sergeant Major in the West Yorkshires) deposed that another brother died in the mental ward of the informary in 1919 and a sister had been in an asylum for 15 years. Other family members confirmed this.
Robert Wright stated that when Richard was home on leave from the Rhine in 1919 he suffered from a brain storm resulting in delirium during which he demanded a revolver with the intention of killing himself.
Witnesses from the regiment testified to Richard's kindness, affability and loyalty.
The trial is now suspended until Saturday pending the arrival of medical men from England.
Press Association Foreign Special
Merry, can I just say thank you for writing all this up for me - you are making a much better job of it than I could. Thank you so much.
In the 3rd paragraph of this last piece (Article 3) I would point out that the brother Robert was my grandfather. This is the article I have found the most disturbing - the mental illness in the family that I wasn't aware of.
I got to message 100 and then it kept repeating itself - dont do this to me, Im biting my nails in anticipation of what happened next :(
Edit - well at least I'm on the last page now, I'll work my way back. Sorry I stuffed up lol
I'm going to go back and take out a lot of the chat posts - that might help a bit....
Margaret in Burton
28-01-10, 21:09
Merry, can I just say thank you for writing all this up for me - you are making a much better job of it than I could. Thank you so much.
In the 3rd paragraph of this last piece (Article 3) I would point out that the brother Robert was my grandfather. This is the article I have found the most disturbing - the mental illness in the family that I wasn't aware of.
Stella
Mental illness could be anything. They used to put people in an asylum for things you would get antidepressants for these days. Unmarried pregnant girls could also find themselves in one.
Olde Crone
28-01-10, 21:13
I was about to say exactly the same as Margaret - mental illness was not understood in the 1920s and could really have been anything, INLCLUDING a physical illness which could be very easily treated these days.
I was horrified to see on another forum that someone's grandmother was admitted to a mental hospital suffering from post natal depression after losing a baby. She remained there for 49 years - that is NOT post natal depression, or if it was, she souldn't have been in there.
OC
Thanks OC and Marg. I do realise that, but it still came as a bit of a shock when I read it. Silly of me really.
Joan of Archives
28-01-10, 21:25
Stella it was interesting to read the fact he was involved in an incident in WWI that could have profoundly affected him mentally. Shellshock was a terrible thing so no wonder he was so unbalanced at the time of the killings, not that it makes it right, but at least you know the background now.
My grandmother's youngest brother joined up at 17 & served in the Dardenelles; he was only a boy & when he returned he was never the same again. In his early 30's he left his wife & children after his youngest daughter died suddenly & he disappeared, never to be seen again, so I think his child's death was the last straw that finally broke him.
Yes Joan, and I am also wondering if the brother who died in a mental ward in 1919 was also suffering from shell shock as he was most likely serving in the 1st world war in 1919 and they were a military family.
Joan of Archives
28-01-10, 21:32
Well there you go Stella, have you looked for a service record on Ancestry for the other brother at all? Unfortunately most of my family seem to be the unlucky ones that were destroyed by fire :(
Olde Crone
28-01-10, 21:56
A while ago, I was reading a book about true murders and realsied with a huge shock that the murderer was a friend of my grandfather - they went to the same school, were in the same cricket club etc and in the same army regiment.
This man shot his fiancee for no known reason. He left his gloves and hat neatly in a pile by her body. He was of course rapidly arrested and seemed amused if anything, certainly not concerned.
His father said that he had returned from WW1 in a terrible state and had in fact locked himself in his room for five weeks, refusing to come out. Eventually he emrged as if nothing had happened and commenced the life of a playboy.
This might be a bit of pop psychology too far, lol, but I did wonder if his actions were a twisted kind of suicide?
OC
Sadly I don't think we will ever understand how those boys/men suffered during the war. They were so young, given guns, told to kill and saw horrendous things.
I know it was nothing like what those men experienced but I went into shock after seeing Saving Private Ryan at the movies. It was the most graphic war movie I had seen. They suffered a lot worse, for a lot longer than the 2 hours I watched. The mental scarring would have been awful, add a physical injury and who knows how anyone would react?
Well there you go Stella, have you looked for a service record on Ancestry for the other brother at all? Unfortunately most of my family seem to be the unlucky ones that were destroyed by fire :(
I couldn't see an army record for Charles on Ancestry. He was b about 1881/1882 in Ilkley. Of course there were two Charles Wrights b there according to the 1901, but I think Stella's one was plain Charles and the other man was Charles Marshall Wright (only because the one who died in 1919 didn't have a middle name.) Charles M Wright is on the 1911 census, but I can't see Charles Wright on that one at the moment.
In 1901 Charles Wright is a farm servant in West Derby and Charles M Wright is a plasterer in Harrogate (his entry says Ilkley, Surrey for place of birth, but the transcriber read the wrong bit lol)
Stella could you confirm which one is yours? Needless to say, there's only one Charles Wright b in Ilkley in 1891! lol
Next episode should be before lunchtime!
Merry, I haven't done much research on the Wrights simply because they are my late father's family and after Mum divorced my father I had little contact with them - also I haven't got Ancestry at the moment. All I do know is my grandmother Wright (Mabel Clifford) came from Derbyshire - Duffield I believe. I have ben concentrating on my mother's line - back to the 1700s.
I think at this rate I am going to have to subscribe to Ancestry again. I am intrigued about Hester the sister of Richard's who had been in a lunatic asylum for years. Such as how old she was when she went in there, was she married and perhaps suffering from post-natal depression, etc and which asylum she was in - oh dear, questions, questions.
Stella, do you know if these are the parents of Robert, Richard, Hester and Charles etc?
Marriages Jun 1868
Evans Eliza Hester Halifax 9a 602 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Riley Emma Halifax 9a 602
Woodhead Edward Halifax 9a 602
Wright William Halifax 9a 602 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 08:46
Stella
If you want to send me a few details on the family I have Ancestry and FMP including the 1911. I don't mind having a rummage.
Marg, I am struggling with the lot of them in 1911.
I notice dad Wm had a new wife in 1901 and 1st wife Eliza Hester died in 1895, so I guess that's the right marriage I found on a previous post. (I was trying to find the other Charles in 1891 in the hope his mmn would turn out to be Marshall so I could def eliminate Charles Marshall Wright from our enquiries, but it's not happening.) I looked at Wright's living in Ilkley in 1881 in case both sets of parents were there then, but the only other couple are Thomas and Adelaide Victoria who I have found in 1891 but they only had a son called Clarence same age as Charles would have been and Adelaide's maiden name seems to have been Watson, so no lose ends tied up there!
Maybe you could look at the household of Charles Marshall Wright in 1911 to see if he has his aging parent at home so I can cross him off for good? lol
Have to go out soon....
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 08:58
OK Merry
Will do it in a little while.
Richard's parents were William Wright born 1844 in Yorkshire and Eliza born 1850 in Southampton, that is all the info I have.
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 09:23
1911
Charles Marshall Wright aged 29 Plasterer born Ilkley, Yorks
Margaret Ellen Wright aged 28 born Orton, Westmorland
Nora Ellen wright aged 1 born Harrogate, Yorks
married 4 years 1 child only, none dead.
living 3 Archie St, New Park, Harrogate
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 10:15
I have Robert and Mabel in 1911.
58 Chatsworth Place, Harrogate
Robert Wright aged 32 a Barman in a Public House born in Saltburn, Yorks
Mabel Wright (wife) aged 25 born in Duffield, Derbyshire
Alfred Clifford Wright (son) aged 3 born in Harrogate
Evelyn Wright (daughter) age 1 born Harrogate
William Clifford (wife's brother) aged 12 born in Duffield
Robert and Mabel had been married 3 years, 2 children (no deaths)
Stella
If you don't have this I'll email the image to you.
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 10:20
Here is dad William in 1911 with new wife Mary Hannah
21 Towers Street, Harrogate
William Wright aged 67 a tin plate worker born in Leeds, Yorks
Mary Hannah Wright aged 46 born in Thorner, Yorks
they had been married 14 years and no children
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 10:39
Death of William
William Wright
Knaresborough
1918 aged 74
Jun qtr 9a 149
I'm struggling to find Hester in 1911. I can't find a marriage either. I wonder if she was in an asylum then and was only listed by initials.
Mary from Italy
29-01-10, 11:05
Not necessarily - my great-aunt was in an asylum, and shown by initials only in 1901, but by her full name in 1911.
Thank you Marg - sorry, been sidetracked from the computer! I'm still not sure about this Charles Marshall. Yes Robert and Mabel at 58 Chatsworth Place is correct - I used to stay there with them as a child occasionally. So Richard's father William remarried then, and had died by the time Richard did the murders? Yes Marg, would like the images - thank you. I'll pm you my email address. It's a mystery about Hester though.
Article 4 - 9th Feb 1825
EXPERTS ON PATHOLOGICAL DRUNKENESS
The three doctors called from England did not appear with the resumption of the trial. Instead, their written statements were admitted as evidence and they testified to the presence of imbecility and insanity in the Wright family.
A German professor, Dr Von Müller-Hess, an eminent criminologist and specialist in criminal jurisprudence, had been examining Richard's mental condition. He said the eleven pints of beer consumed by Wright before the crime contained a very high level of alcohol; enough to cause a person of Wright's mental inferiority to become pathologically drunk. Pathalogical drunkenness differed from ordinary drunkeness in that following a period of heavy drinking and sleep, the individual would have little recolection of their actions. This would explain why Richard believed he only fired one shot, and was a mental aberration. He also admitted that pathalogical drunkeness can follow a period of ordinary drunkeness. A second specialist, Professor Aschaffenburg, gave similar evidence.
Counsel objected to the question whether the witness believed the accused had committed the crime whilst in a state of "transitory mental bewilderment". However, the court allowed the question if the reply related to actual observation of the prisioner, as which witness replied "Yes." Witness further expressed that it was his opinion that the accused did not know the nature of the act he had committed.
The court adjourned.
Reuter.
If Hester had been in an asylum for 15 years in 1925 then that takes us back to about 1910 and she would have been about 22 years of age, so probably not married. How come I don't easily see a death for her, presuming she stayed in the asylum indefinitely?
Oh cripes, is this her?
Name: Hester Wright
Birth Date: About 1889
Death Registration Month/Year: 1970 Q2
Registration district: Staincliffe
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 2d
Page: 956
and they didn't even know her date of birth. How very sad.
So would that have made her about 21 yrs old when she went into the Asylum then? Oh yes, just re-read your post Merry. She could possibly have been married then - just. Am wondering if they have spelt her name correctly, it could have been Esther.
Not necessarily - my great-aunt was in an asylum, and shown by initials only in 1901, but by her full name in 1911.
I'm not suggesting that Hester was in Surrey in 1911, but there are many patients of Cane Hill Lunatic Asylum, Coulsdon, Surrey, listed just by initials, so it was still being done that way, even in 1911. Check Reference RG14PN3281 RD39 SD1 ED10 SN9999 to see what I mean (or just search for H S living in Croydon)
scuda
(or just search for H S living in Croydon)
scuda
Erm....H W !
Stella I think that death is probably her, particularly because they didn't know her dob.
Yes, I think so too Merry. She lived to a good age then, but how very sad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scuda
(or just search for H S living in Croydon)
scuda
Erm....H W !
Just an example, Merry, to get you to the right pages. As I said, this is just to indicate that people were entered by initials in 1911 (I'm surprised it was allowed), not reached through searching for Hester.
scuda
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 14:24
Charles M Wright the plasterer IS the right one.
In 1901 he is a brother in law of Tom Duffield. Tom's wife is Ann aged 26 born in Saltburn. Charles in 1891 has a sister Annie aged 16 born in Saltburn.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7814&iid=YRKRG13_4050_4053-0695&fn=Chas+M&ln=Wright&st=d&ssrc=&pid=25812701
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 14:27
Marriage
Annie Wright and Tom Duffield
Knaresborough
Sep qtr 1897
9a 180
Good work lasses Stella bet your buzzing with all this ;;
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 14:31
Do you want me to look for the rest of the siblings in 1911?
I'll keep looking for Hester / Esther
Marg - thank you. You have done enough now, so have a rest. Yes, agree now about Charles. My main worry, and don't ask me why, is Hester - poor woman. Yes Babs, my head is spinning! Oh got the census OK Marg - have emailed you. Thanks.
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 14:44
Not got any email as yet Stella
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 14:47
My thinking behind finding the other siblings is that Hester could be hiding with one of them.
I've found Fred and Harry anyway I think.
Oh dear Marg - I left the 255 off the email!:d Anyway, sorry, but got the census OK. Thanks
There are some H W and E W entries (various ages) at the West Riding Asylum, Menston, in 1911. Would this have been in Staincliffe district (to fit the death Merry found)? No birthplaces recorded, though.
scuda
Menston is certainly near Harrogate scuda, but not sure how near it is to Staincliffe, will have to investigate. It had a name change to High Royds in 1963 and is on Google.
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 14:59
There are some H W and E W entries (various ages) at the West Riding Asylum, Menston, in 1911. Would this have been in Staincliffe district (to fit the death Merry found)? No birthplaces recorded, though.
scuda
That's interesting Scuda
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 15:02
Sending you some more 1911's Stella.
Have found William (the dad), Charles, Fred and Harry
http://www.highroydshospital.co.uk/
Looks an awful place!
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 15:09
Not having much luck finding any of the others
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 15:23
I've found HW aged 24 on the 1911 in the asylum but it is in Wharfedale reg dis.
edit
Just noticed, it's not her. That one is a man.
RG14PN26016 RD491 SD3 ED16 SN9999
Thanks Marg - got those. Don't worry about the others, you have done quite enough. Thank you again.
Mary from Italy
29-01-10, 15:24
This is presumably Hester's birth:
Births Mar 1888
WRIGHT Hester Knaresbro 9a 105
I bet HW is in Menston Asylum which became High Royds in 1963. I shall scrutinise that site later, but must go now.
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 15:26
This is presumably Hester's birth:
Births Mar 1888
WRIGHT Hester Knaresbro 9a 105
Yes I think so Mary
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 15:30
This may be her though.
West Riding Asylum, WEST RIDING ASYLUM, MENSTON
RG14PN26016 RD491 SD3 ED16 SN9999
W, H
Lunatic
Single
Female
age 22
born 1889
occupation None
Mary from Italy
29-01-10, 15:30
The TNA shows what records are held for Menston/Highroyds Asylum:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/details.asp?id=2272&hospital=menston&town=&searchdatabase.x=0&searchdatabase.y=0
They're at the West Yorks Archives, but 1970's a bit recent - asylum records usually have a 70 or 100-year embargo on them.
Thank you Mary. How did you find that Margaret?
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 15:33
Stella
I'm sending you the image for that one
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 15:35
Thank you Mary. How did you find that Margaret?
I put just H in the first name and W for the last name and put Wharfedale in for the reg district
Wow, thanks Margaret. Now I really MUST go!! LOL
maggie_4_7
29-01-10, 15:37
The TNA shows what records are held for Menston/Highroyds Asylum:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/details.asp?id=2272&hospital=menston&town=&searchdatabase.x=0&searchdatabase.y=0
They're at the West Yorks Archives, but 1970's a bit recent - asylum records usually have a 70 or 100-year embargo on them.
But would that include the admittance records for HW seeing as its over 70 years?
I don't think the release of records would be a complete file of every patient residing there, but correct me if I'm wrong, wouldn't it just be certain criteria for the years in question for all patients.
Looking at the list it has the Clinical & Patients 1888 - 1965 records or have I read that wrong?
Olde Crone
29-01-10, 15:47
As Hester is dead, I think you MIGHT be able to get her medical records - the bits which don't include any other patient, if you see what I mean, so her personal medical records and probably her admittance and discharge records (discharged dead probably).
She may not have been insane of course, she may just have been "simple", poor soul.
OC
Mary from Italy
29-01-10, 15:52
But would that include the admittance records for HW seeing as its over 70 years?
Not quite sure what criteria they use - each Record Office seems to have a different approach. I was allowed to access the records of my great-aunt, who died in 1930, with no difficulty at all.
maggie_4_7
29-01-10, 15:56
Not quite sure what criteria they use - each Record Office seems to have a different approach. I was allowed to access the records of my great-aunt, who died in 1930, with no difficulty at all.
Its so sad ;(
I expect there were/are loads of people in the same position.
Mary from Italy
29-01-10, 15:58
There are some H W and E W entries (various ages) at the West Riding Asylum, Menston, in 1911. Would this have been in Staincliffe district (to fit the death Merry found)?
No, it's in Wharfedale district, but it's very close to Staincliffe district:
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/wharfedale.html
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/staincliffe.html
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&source=hp&ie=UTF8&q=menston+yorkshire+uk&fb=1&gl=uk&ei=pg5jS_fFIMnisAb-_5UP&ved=0CA8Q_wY&view=map&f=d&daddr=Menston,+Ilkley,+Yorkshire&geocode=CVdkLnHrWrHAFdQ9NgMda5vl_w&sa=X
Mary from Italy
29-01-10, 15:59
Its so sad ;(
I expect there were/are loads of people in the same position.
Yes, I was a bit horrified to discover quite how many lunatics there are in my tree (about 10 at the last count, including some quite close relations).
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 16:00
Perhaps Stella should invest in the death cert.
Mary from Italy
29-01-10, 16:04
Yes, definitely, because it'll say if she was in the asylum. The informant may well be somebody from the hospital, though, not a relative.
Mary from Italy
29-01-10, 16:05
By the way, if you can get hold of the asylum file, they sometimes have a photo of the patient.
Olde Crone
29-01-10, 16:29
This is irrelevant really I suppose, but from what I recall, the 1970s were the very beginning of "Care in the Community" and steps were already being taken to make living conditions in the asylums a bit more bearable.
As she was quite old when she died, she may have been in a specialised home on or offsite, or part of the asylum for the elderly, rather than just mouldering in a general locked ward. I do hope so.
OC
samesizedfeet
29-01-10, 17:08
I think I have a picture of Richard Wright at his trial from teh Daily Mirror
Just trying to get te page to load up large enough to view it
Oh WOW Zoe - hope you have, would love to see it please.
samesizedfeet
29-01-10, 17:21
and ne of Maria Stasiak
give me an hour or so 0 very busy at work
Oh even better Zoe. OK I'll be patient.
samesizedfeet
29-01-10, 17:36
64
65
samesizedfeet
29-01-10, 17:38
there's some articles I can put up as well No more info than Merry's posted already but I am able to give myself permission to use the on here LOL
That will have to wait a bit though
Oh thank you for those piccies Zoe.
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 17:54
Stella
Is your head spinning even faster now?
This site and it's members are brilliant
Margaret, I don't know whether I'm coming or going - got sod all done indoors today! LOL This site is fantastic, especially you, Merry, Zoe and everyone else who has helped. Must go and see Emmerdale now.
Gosh, Richard looks a lot more imposing than I was expecting. (sorry Stella!)
I am starting to feel especially sorry for the Lance-Corporal - not just because he died, never minding the circumstances, but because no one seems to know what his name was - Whitman, Whitham, Whitwham, whatever.
I've just rated this a 5 star thread, how absolutely wonderful all you have found out.
I've just been looking at the medal cards for WW1.
I searched for Whit?a? and Cameron Highlanders and only got two matches. Neither had the initials F L but I was surprised that both were for the name Whitwam, rather than the more common Whitman or Whitham.
Thinking there might be an association for people called Whitwam and the Cameron Highlanders, I then looked at birth for Whitwam looking for an F L (I realise this is a very long shot! lol for all I know L-C W was a Scot!) Anyway, the only match in the Eng/Wales BMDs was this one:
Name: Friend Lewis Whitwam
Year of Registration: 1892
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Dewsbury
County: Yorkshire - West Riding, West Yorkshire
Volume: 9b
Page: 569
Trouble is this is the only evidence of this persons existence I can find - no census, no marriage, no death - nothing.
Is it a waste of time trying to follow up? Does anyone have access to overseas deaths for 1925?
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 19:42
I've just been looking at the medal cards for WW1.
I searched for Whit?a? and Cameron Highlanders and only got two matches. Neither had the initials F L but I was surprised that both were for the name Whitwam, rather than the more common Whitman or Whitham.
Thinking there might be an association for people called Whitwam and the Cameron Highlanders, I then looked at birth for Whitwam looking for an F L (I realise this is a very long shot! lol for all I know L-C W was a Scot!) Anyway, the only match in the Eng/Wales BMDs was this one:
Name: Friend Lewis Whitwam
Year of Registration: 1892
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Dewsbury
County: Yorkshire - West Riding, West Yorkshire
Volume: 9b
Page: 569
Trouble is this is the only evidence of this persons existence I can find - no census, no marriage, no death - nothing.
Is it a waste of time trying to follow up? Does anyone have access to overseas deaths for 1925?
I think I do on FMP
Hang on
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 19:46
Never looked at these before
GRO ARMY DEATH INDICES
Lewis Whitwam
aged 31
Cologne
1924
page 316
Could be the same person you found the birth for Merry
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 19:52
It's the only one that comes up even if I put Whit* in the search
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 19:55
Off to watch the 2nd half of Silent Witness in a bit, back later
Well, back from watching tv. It has occurred to me that Richard wasn't in Maidstone - well, not initially anyway. In the photo of him, he is being taken to Wandsworth prison. It was my mother who said Maidstone, so she could have been mistaken.
I have just emailed Highroyds Hospital archive dept and given Hester's details and asked if she was there and if she died there in 1970.
He might have been transferred at some point, Stella.
Marg - that looks very positive. I can see in the army you wouldn't want the first name Friend (quite popular with the Whitwams!)
Yes, hadn't thought of that Merry - he could have been.
Margaret in Burton
29-01-10, 21:02
Well, back from watching tv. It has occurred to me that Richard wasn't in Maidstone - well, not initially anyway. In the photo of him, he is being taken to Wandsworth prison. It was my mother who said Maidstone, so she could have been mistaken.
He could well have been in Wandsworth to start with and been transferred to Maidestone later.
Yes Marg, just as Merry thought too.
That was hard work!
1901 on Ancestry:
Eliza Whetwham head widow 43
John W Whetwham 26
Julia Whetwham 16
Friend R Whetwham 9
Fred Whetwham 4
and in 1911:
Eliza Whitwham 53
Frank 29
Lewis 19
Fred 14
Jessie 2
Too exhausted to decide if this is a matching set, as it only half matches! lol
Edit, Friend and Lewis both born in Batley which was in Dewsbury distrct so that's right.
Armed with what Zoe found in the Mirror I've just done another search in The Guardian and found an article dated 14th March 1925 saying that Private Richard Wright left Cologne the previous day on his way to Wandsworth Prison, before his transfer to a penal establishment.
So it seems that Wandsworth was just a staging post.
samesizedfeet
30-01-10, 00:39
HUGE apologies.
We had a bit of an emergency at work which resulted in me being left on my own for the night. As a result I completely forgot to post the articles on here and to email them to myself at home. So I won't be able to put them up until Monday afternoon when I return to work.
Uncle John
30-01-10, 13:30
It's just not good enough. Letting work get in the way of FH.
I quite agree Uncle John, it's really not on!:d
Goodness this is certainly gaining pace ... how wonderful to have photos as well :D
I'm going to have to c/p it all to read at leisure as my concentration is at a low ebb just now.
In the back of my mind, I'm thinking of a cast list .... hmmmm .... would Meryl Streep, filmed through vaseline, be too old to play Maria ?
Yes, it would make a good drama Rachel, but it would need to go back to William and Eliza's early marriage, then their children, then perhaps we would find out why poor Hester ended up in the Asylum. Can't get her out of my head!
Agree with Marg, I think you should get her death cert Stella
Yes, think I'll have to Rachel. She may have just had epilepsy, or even been Down's Syndrome. I believe both those conditions often resulted in being put in an Asylum. Epilepsy especially was considered to be a 'mental' illness years ago.
Article 5 - 10th Feb 1925
(other article posts #93, #94, #100 and #127)
Professor Aschaffenburg was severely cross examined regarding the phrase 'transitory mental bewilderment'. (to cut a rather long bit shorter!) he said he believed the accused's mental state was such that he truly didn't remember what had happened when he shot the victims.
Professor Schneider agreed with his colleague. He said it was only possible for experts to tell the difference between ordinary drunkeness and pathalogical drunkeness. He believed without alcohol Wright would not have committed the crime.
The defence called Captain Blackwood, a Royal (??) Army Medical Corps mental specialist for the British army on the Rhine, who was originally a prosecution witness. He agreed that the condition of pathalogical drunkeness was known to medicine and especially to criminologists. He said some people were particularly suceptible to the effects of alcohol when under a violent emotional such as fear or jealousy or recessive mental or bodily fatigue. He agreed that the accused's experiences might render him liable to such an attack.
The case will be concluded tomorrow.
Press Association Foreign Special
Heck Merry, you are so tidy and organised. I see you've even put the page numbers for the various Articles. Thank you.
Olde Crone
30-01-10, 22:33
I don't know about the rest of you, but I am beginning to see where this is going:
"only possible for experts to tell the difference between ordinary drunkenness and pathological drunkenness"
erm, well, yes.....
OC
Well I guess we all know the result. Was 30 years a normal sentence in those days? It also doesn't appear that they accepted the "mitigating circumstances" ie pathological drunkeness.
I expect they were trying to prove that Wright was temporarily insane at the time he shot his victims.
I agree Stella but it doesn't seem to have worked if he got 30 years.
Better 30 years than being shot at dawn, I imagine, Kit. Time off for good behaviour as well, possibly.
maggie_4_7
31-01-10, 07:27
Well I guess we all know the result. Was 30 years a normal sentence in those days? It also doesn't appear that they accepted the "mitigating circumstances" ie pathological drunkeness.
No it would have been hanging. Although under court martial law it may well have been a firing squad! So I think they accepted the mitigating circumstances...
garstonite
31-01-10, 07:41
Now THIS is what we join these sites for.....absolutely riveting and superb research work....I thoroughly enjoyed this thread and have to say a massive WELL DONE girls.....the EVER reliable Merry....excellent work Merry.
Stella , you must be so delighted with all the info,even if some is a little sad for you.
Classic research ,and a perfect example of skilled researchers bouncing off each other for answers...not forgetting the time you all took....what a site..
allan:)
Although under court martial law it may well have been a firing squad!
This is what I understood would normally have been the sentence if he was found guilty of murder at a court martial at this date. However, the army/government were keen to not have to go about shooting their own side due to political ructions following the shooting of deserters etc in WW1.
Article 6 - 11th Feb 1925
Previous article at post #201
RECOMMENDATION TO MERCY
The trial concluded this day, after six days.
Today's sitting was taken up with speeches by counsel and the summing up of the Deputy Judge Advocate General. The Court was absent for 15 minutes whilst the question of guilt was considered.
In the ordinary course of court martial and military court procedure the president does not announce a verdict in the court. If the prisoner has been found not guilty the President orders him to be discharged forthwith. If he is found guilty then the court resumes it's sitting and evidence of character will be called for.
Until this point the prisioner had remained completely impassive during the court proceedings, but now he showed signs of nervous agitation when character evidence was called for, as he must have realised this meant an adverse verdict. After this evidence was given, the Court was again cleared.
The Court deliberated the sentence for 40 minutes, at the end of which the Judge Advocate handed the prisioner an envelope containing the form notifying the accused that he had been found guilty and sentenced to death. It would also inform him whether there was a recommendaton to mercy by the Court to the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, by whom the sentence must be confirmed.
The accused put the envelope, unopened, into his pocket and was then removed under escort to the military prison in a closed car brought to the side of the court to screen him from large crowds gathered.
It is understood the Court have strongly recommended the prisioner to mercy. The Ronald True case has been much quoted (in connection with the admissibility of evidence as to insanity), but the defence advanced the new theory of pathalogical drunkeness, but failed to induce the Court to find the prisioner guilty but insane. The defence had been relying on the new theory and had hoped for a verdict of not guilty.
The accused's brother, Robert, is remaining her and will visit the condemned man until the sentence is confirmed or otherwise.
Press Association Foreign Special
Last article to come this evening...
Noooooooooo.......
I don't want to wait.
Margaret in Burton
31-01-10, 09:33
Noooooooooo.......
I don't want to wait.
*Joins Kit kicking and screaming*
Terrific Merry! My poor grandfather (Robert) - what he must have been going through whilst he waited with his brother - must have been hell for him.
Now THIS is what we join these sites for.....absolutely riveting and superb research work....I thoroughly enjoyed this thread and have to say a massive WELL DONE girls.....the EVER reliable Merry....excellent work Merry.
Stella , you must be so delighted with all the info,even if some is a little sad for you.
Classic research ,and a perfect example of skilled researchers bouncing off each other for answers...not forgetting the time you all took....what a site..
allan:)
Yes Allan, I can't believe I have found out about all this - it had been bugging me for years and I began to think my dear old Mum had it all wrong. Yes, I have found a lot of it very sad, mainly the mental health problems on that side of the family which I was unaware of, but a lot, apart from Hester, was probably due to shell-shock - who knows?
Noooooooooo.......
I don't want to wait.
*Joins Kit kicking and screaming*
I don't want it to end ........ *begins to wail*
Margaret in Burton
31-01-10, 12:35
I don't want it to end ........ *begins to wail*
If Stella get the death cert for Hester it may not end. :)
Then there's Charles Marg - why did he die insane? Insanity isn't a killer, unless it's suicide through depression.
Margaret in Burton
31-01-10, 12:50
Yes, that's another death cert you need to send for. :d:d
Hope you're saving up.
LOL Marg, then if I resubscribe to Ancestry - oh heck! Think I'll say bye-bye to you all!!
Margaret in Burton
31-01-10, 13:09
LOL Marg, then if I resubscribe to Ancestry - oh heck! Think I'll say bye-bye to you all!!
No you won't.:D:D
It's all that Merry's fault!! LOL
Mary from Italy
31-01-10, 13:17
Then there's Charles Marg - why did he die insane? Insanity isn't a killer, unless it's suicide through depression.
It just means he was insane when he died, probably in an asylum.
Interesting what was said in court about pathological drunkenness; so I was wrong about him being an alcoholic.
It's referred to as a "new theory", and I don't think it lasted long - so far as I know the term isn't used nowadays.
No Mary, he wasn't an alcoholic. I did wonder about that 'cos he wouldn't have lasted long in the army if he was. Mind you, what puzzles me is the fact that he was still only a Private after all the years he had been in the army - hadn't risen up in the ranks at all.
Do we have a death date for Charles Marshall Wright? I see he was born 1881/2, but don't know when he died - unless I've missed that bit. I can then get his death cert at the same time as I get Hester's.
Mary from Italy
31-01-10, 13:35
Looks like this one:
Deaths Mar 1919
Wright Charles 37 Knaresbro 9a 173
Mary from Italy
31-01-10, 13:38
Possible births:
Births Dec 1880
WRIGHT Charles Henry Knaresbro' 9a 107
Births Sep 1881
Wright Charles Marshall Wharfedale 9a 150
My guess would be the Knaresborough one - did you ever find Charles in 1911?
Yes, got to go back and look though! LOL I am getting very confused!
Charles (Marshall) Wright was born in Ilkley which I think is Wharfdale district (could someone check?) and died in 1919 (as per Mary's post)
It's all that Merry's fault!! LOL
No, it's your fault Stella :p:p:p:p - look what you said right at the start......
Oh dear Nell, it will be almost impossible to research, as I have such sketchy info about it. I am not even sure if the murder took place here in the UK or in France/Belgium! LOL His name is Richard Wright (known as Dick), brother of Robert Wright b1879. He was born in Harrogate, Yorkshire, don't know yet when. This murder took place either during or just after WW1 - he was a soldier in that. He had a gun still, so I am told, and shot her. Do not even know her name. My late Mum said he did 30 years in Maidstone prison (but Mum's memory was a bit bad! LOL). His parents were still living in Harrogate when all this happened.
maggie_4_7
31-01-10, 13:55
"it will be almost impossible to research,"
:)
Should never say that on here its like a red rag to a bull...
Well done the lot of you.
Thanks Merry. I'll send for the death certificates - Hester's and Charles' then. Yes, I shouldn't have said it would be impossible 'cos I know you like a challenge!:d
Got visitors - back later.
Olde Crone
31-01-10, 14:57
Yes, I rather thought the "pathoogical drunkeness" was a bit of straw clutching - he was obviously guilty and equally obviously not insane, so they had to find SOMETHING to try to excuse what he had done.
It IS a sad case, but it does look as if justice was done, in the circumstances.
(Stella, the last time I taunted this lot with "I have absolutely nothing to go on" - they found me the MOST incredible story!!!!)
OC
Well in that case OC I shall have to say it more often then.
Had a reply to my email to Highroyds about Hester's hospital records, but they want £24 an hour to search and send details. Also I have to be her next-of-kin. Think I will have to make do with her death certificate.
Mary from Italy
31-01-10, 16:12
Charles (Marshall) Wright was born in Ilkley which I think is Wharfdale district (could someone check?)
It is, yes.
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/wharfedale.html
Thanks Mary. Sorry, sounded like I was ordering people about, but I wasn't supposed to be here and was worried Stella might order the wrong one!
Article 7 - 4th March 1925 This is the last one from me!
Previous article at post #210
COMMUTATION OF WRIGHT'S SENTENCE
The capital sentence passed on Private Dick Wright for the murder of Lance Corporal Whitwhan (yet another spelling) and Marie Stasiak has been commuted to penal servitude for life.
Private Wright, of the West Yorkshire Regiment, murdered Lance Corporal Whitwhan and Marie Stasiak on Dec 22nd. The trial lasted six days, the defence urging pathalogical drunkeness. He was sentenced to death on Feb 10th, but the Royal clemency has now been exercised, the delay being due to the King's illness.
Reuter.
Blinkety flip, so even the KING knew about Richard Wright?:D
maggie_4_7
31-01-10, 18:05
... and if I know King George V as well as I think I do he was suffering with a lung complaint i.e. some respiratory problem in 1925 as he usually was because of his heavy smoking :)
Exactly right Maggie - 19th Feb The Times was reporting on The King's continued bronchitis.
samesizedfeet
31-01-10, 18:19
... and if I know King George V as well as I think I do he was suffering with a lung complaint i.e. some respiratory problem in 1925 as he usually was because of his heavy smoking :)
thanks for that. I know it shouldn't have been my first response but I immediately worried about what was up with the king
maggie_4_7
31-01-10, 18:26
thanks for that. I know it shouldn't have been my first response but I immediately worried about what was up with the king
:d yeah right!
You are joking of course.
Wow Merry, thank you so much for all your work! I didn't realise that I now have Royal connections. Thank you too everyone else for all your contributions - what a great bunch you lot are!! I shall have to think of another impossible thing for you to get your teeth into. Just had another email from Highroyds archive thingy and the man - Mark Davis, who sent the 1st email has offered to go and search W. Yorks Archives for me personally free-of-charge! Really kind of him. Thank you all once again.:)
I will be sending off for Hester's and Charles' death certificates.
... and if I know King George V as well as I think I do
I didn't know you KNEW royalty. I'm impressed. ;)
I will be sending off for Hester's and Charles' death certificates.
Haven't you done that yet? :p
Lovely of that man to reearch for you.
As for next of kin, there is no one alive of Hester's generation. So who is the eldest living relative now? Would they get it for you?
Olde Crone
31-01-10, 21:58
Goodness me Stella, you ARE Hester's only living relative! Nudge nudge wink wink.
OC
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