The Webbs

[kiterunner]

My half-great-aunt Marion Margaret Ruby Bristow got married on the 14th June 1918 at St Mary Magdalene Church, Brighton, to a Canadian serviceman. The witnesses were Gladys Webb, Stanley Webb, and Alice Webb. I have tried to figure out who they were from time to time, and I believe I have finally found them on the 1911 census. I was expecting Stanley to be a bit older than this!

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2352/images/rg14_05188_0795_03?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=BPu8821&_phstart=successSource&pId=51493993

8 Connaught Rd, Hove, Brighton
Alice M Webb Head 40 Married 13 years, 3 children, 2 living, 1 died Boarding House Keeper born Gravesend
Gladys A Webb Daughter 11
Stanley P Webb Son 6
Martha Hobbs Visitor 58 widow Dress maker born Westminster
Eliza J Jarvis Boarder 65 widow born Leicester
Albert E Roach (?) Visitor 24 single Dental Assistant born Horsham.

There are births for Gladys Alice Webb (Apr-Jun 1899) and Stanley Peter Webb (Jul-Sep 1904) at Edmonton, with MMN Race.

The child who died could be Maud Lena Alice Webb birth registered Oct-Dec 1897 Islington, death Apr-Jun 1898 Islington, age 0.

Peter Webb married Alice Maud Race 26 Oct 1896 at Holy Trinity, Islington, he a widower, age 37, butcher, of 64 Brooksby Street, son of John Webb, deceased, gentleman, she a spinster, age 27, of 78 Offord Road, daughter of John Race, deceased, builder. Witnesses Albert Hobbs and Emma Maud Leslie.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1623/images/31280_197775-00321?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=BPu8822&_phstart=successSource&pId=3270057

This is Peter and Alice in 1901:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7814/images/MDXRG13_1236_1238-0406?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=BPu8824&_phstart=successSource&pId=7186117
5 Tancred Road, Hornsey, Middlesex
Peter Webb Head 40 Foreman Butcher London Westminster
Alice M Do Wife M 30 Kent Gravesend
Gladys A Do Daur 1 Hornsey Md
James Harwood Boarder S 24 Foreman Saddler Cornwall Newquay
Eliza Bowder Serv M 67 General Serv Domestic London Paddington.

Can anyone find Alice before her marriage?

[ElizabethHerts]

It's odd that Alice says she was born at Gravesend as I can't find any Race births there.

[Merry]

I did look at a few things, but not thoroughly...

Babies called Alice Maud b Gravesend 1871ish - any of those illegitimate or with a widowed mother on the 1871/81 census? There were none that fitted that criteria and I didn't have time to follow the children with (apparently) married parents.

There are no obvious candidates for John Race builder dying 1870-1896.

No Race marriages in Kent that look like they might be connected in some way.

A quick search of the witnesses and visitors to see if any of them might have a connection to the name Race. No, not obviously anyway.

I was supposed to stop at 8am, so will stop now!

[ElizabethHerts]

Merry, I came to the same conclusion!

[kiterunner]

Thanks for trying. It can't be a coincidence that Ruby's uncle (Owen / Fred Bristow) seems to be "Arthur Race" in Brighton on the 1911 census, can it (there is an old thread about that)? I thought if I traced Alice's family back, I might find how they are connected to the Bristows.

[kiterunner]

Albert Richard Hobbs married Martha Franks, widow, 22 Apr 1886 at St Andrew Lambeth. Her father was John Webb, butcher. So the Hobbs connection is to Alice's husband, not to the Races. Bother. I was hoping the Hobbses would lead me to Alice's parents!

This is Albert and Martha in 1901:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7814/images/LNDRG13_176_178-0535?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ctf25378&_phstart=successSource&pId=2370973

[kiterunner]

This is Stanley and Alice in 1939, in Lambeth:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/61596/images/tna_r39_0366_0366j_004?backlabel=ReturnSearchResul ts&queryId=2050ad73b539c6d680014216b9576b4e&pId=7813391

Alice gives her dob as 3 Jul 1870.

[Phoenix]

According to the 1939, Alice's dob is 3 July 1870. She is living with Stanley on Streatham Hill : https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=TNA%2FR39%2F0366%2F0366J%2F004&parentid=TNA%2FR39%2F0366%2F0366J%2F004%2F02

[Phoenix]

And she is NOT Alice Maud Hambly b Gravesend, who I have spent an idle hour tracing into marriage and the 1901 census.

[kiterunner]

Thanks, Phoenix.

There is an Alfred Race birth Jan-Mar 1874 Gravesend, illegitimate according to the GRO site. It seems his mother was Ellen Race who married Thomas Mackerel Smith in 1875. I've found them in 1881 but there is no Alice Maud with them:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7572/images/KENRG11_872_875-0484?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=BPu8833&_phstart=successSource&pId=8006849
Ellen is 32, born London.

[kiterunner]

Ooh, according to a tree on Ancestry, Ellen belongs to this family:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7619/images/LNDRG10_734_735-0560?pId=5847057

Daniel and Harriett, aged 53 and 49 respectively in 1871, with a "daughter" Alice age 2, born Islington. The GRO site has the birth of Alice Race in Islington, Jul-Sep 1868, illegitimate. And there is an older Alfred in the family, a brother for Ellen to have named her son after.

Just need to try to figure out how they could be connected with the Bristows now, but I think I can have a go at that on my own. Thanks for the help, everyone.

Edit - of course, it could be only Alice herself who is connected with the Bristows, since we don't know who her father was! Owen's father and older brother were both named John, and the brother was a painter and decorator, though not exactly a builder...maybe a bit young to be Alice's father but not impossible.

[kiterunner]

Just to add, I think this is Alice in 1881, age 11, at Lambeth Workhouse School:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7572/images/LNDRG11_628_631-0578?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=20859873

and this could possibly be her in 1891:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/6598/images/LNDRG12_306_307-0232?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=BPu8840&_phstart=successSource&pId=7805590

[ElizabethHerts]

Just to add, I think this is Alice in 1881, age 11, at Lambeth Workhouse School:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7572/images/LNDRG11_628_631-0578?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=20859873

I wondered about her. I was about to go out and forgot to post.

[Phoenix]

That could be the right woman:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60391/images/31537_213842-00025?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=4fcc11d2f0f06078d085b4b771fbefac&pId=14086134

[Phoenix]

ie Alice aged 7wks in Lambeth Workouse with mother Ellen.

[kiterunner]

Thanks, Phoenix. I was just looking at that.

[Phoenix]

For some odd reason, I cannot find the settlement examination. It will exist: there are a huge number of volumes for Lambeth which I have used at LMA and online, but Ancestry no longer seems to offer them, even for browsing.

[Phoenix]

Okay, Ellen ought to be here, but she isn't: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1557/images/31952_a013151-00023?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=dec84acb43d1e15916349a3d034ad6c7&pId=8406910

[ElizabethHerts]

Ellen was 18 in 1868.
Could this be her birth?

RACE, ELLEN LUCY HAMPSON
GRO Reference: 1850 D Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 04 Page 321

[ElizabethHerts]

Ellen in 1851, with parents Daniel and Harriet!

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8860&h=1928521&tid=&pid=&queryId=e31439451c27baf1b6ece6df5aba41db&usePUB=true&_phsrc=MgJ4766&_phstart=successSource

[kiterunner]

Thanks, Phoenix and Elizabeth. It doesn't look as though Ellen had much to do with Alice's upbringing, but since we don't know who Alice's father was, I suspect the link with the Bristows could be on her father's side.