View Full Version : Joseph Connolly & Elizabeth Golding
I am researching Thomas Connolly who married my aunt Edith Mary Sharratt in 1931. On the 1911 census he was living at 55 Hilton Street, Birkenhead, Cheshire with his parents Joseph & Elizabeth and seven siblings.
RG14 PN21973 RD452 SD1 ED16 SN344
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBC%2F1911%2FRG14%2F21973%2F0687&parentid=GBC%2F1911%2FRG14%2F21973%2F0687%2F1
I have the births and baptisms for all the children and these indicate the mother's maiden name as Golding. The census also states that Joseph & Elizabeth had been married for 29 years (1882 approx).
I have searched FMP for their marriage in Britain, Ireland & World using name and date variants but cannot find a marriage between Joseph Connolly & Elizabeth Golding. Joseph gives his birthplace as Birkenhead (1861 approx) and Elizabeth as Liverpool (1863 approx) on the 1911 census.
Do you think it may be that Elizabeth was previously married to a Golding and gave that name as her maiden name?
kiterunner
25-05-21, 18:08
That wouldn't be my first guess. Also, I would try looking on FreeBMD for the marriage as well as FMP. Though I don't see it on there either.
There is an Elizabeth Golding birth registered Apr-Jun 1862 Liverpool which could be her.
kiterunner
25-05-21, 18:21
I found a likely Joseph Connolly on the 1881 census as a lodger in Birkenhead, unmarried, age 20, with Mary A Connolly age 53 who I guess is his mother. I also found Elizabeth Golding age 19, unmarried, born Liverpool, a housemaid at Oxton, Cheshire (in the borough of Birkenhead, so not far from Joseph.)
I found a likely Joseph Connolly on the 1881 census as a lodger in Birkenhead, unmarried, age 20, with Mary A Connolly age 53 who I guess is his mother. I also found Elizabeth Golding age 19, unmarried, born Liverpool, a housemaid at Oxton, Cheshire (in the borough of Birkenhead, so not far from Joseph.)
Yes, I also had found those and the two addresses are indeed very close, so I assumed that was where they met. Both were single in 1881 which ties in with their marriage being in 1882.
Just baffling me why I can't find their marriage!
maggie_4_7
25-05-21, 20:49
I looked too and couldn't find anything.
Pinefamily
25-05-21, 23:22
Perhaps Golding was the maiden name, but she had been married before.
Perhaps Golding was the maiden name, but she had been married before.
Yes, I thought of that but according to the 1911 census she had been married to Joseph since 1882 which would have made her 20/21 years old, so I doubt that she would have been married before. Also on the 1881 census she is single.
Her first couple of children were baptised in Catholic churches (the rest, strangely, in Anglican?) so maybe it was a Catholic marriage and the records aren't available online yet?
kiterunner
26-05-21, 15:44
If it was a Catholic marriage, it should still be in the civil registration marriage indexes.
Olde Crone
26-05-21, 16:30
I remember something I read, may be relevant. If he was Catholic and she was Protestant, the catholic church wouldn't marry them unless she converted. So the first couple of children baptised RC in the hope the parents would marry, then the priest put his foot down and refused to baptise the rest. However, priests normally made a point of writing illegitimate in the register, so maybe not in this case.
OC
It has been known for church records not to make it to the GRO and sometimes (less often) even to the local reg office! There's information about this in the book 'A Comedy of Errors or The Marriage Records of England and Wales 1837-1899' by Michael Whitfield Foster (or it might be in the sequel, I don't remember). Or, of course, they might just have not married for various possible reasons, the most likely being that one of them had already been married. However, there is no indication of a marriage for either of them in the right area (I looked 1875-1885). They might still appear as single in 1881 if the marriage had failed before that date.
EDIT that book is fairly out of date now in some ways, but would probably still be interesting to people who want to know how the registration system used to work.
It has been known for church records not to make it to the GRO and sometimes (less often) even to the local reg office! There's information about this in the book 'A Comedy of Errors or The Marriage Records of England and Wales 1837-1899' by Michael Whitfield Foster (or it might be in the sequel, I don't remember). Or, of course, they might just have not married for various possible reasons, the most likely being that one of them had already been married. However, there is no indication of a marriage for either of them in the right area (I looked 1875-1885). They might still appear as single in 1881 if the marriage had failed before that date.
EDIT that book is fairly out of date now in some ways, but would probably still be interesting to people who want to know how the registration system used to work.
While that book was written some time ago, the marriage indexes have not been revised. My grandparents' marriage missed the first cut and both entries are handwritten at the foot of their respective pages as afterthoughts.
I note that on the 1911 census, Joseph himself has not said that he or his wife are married. That has been completed by the enumerator. They may have been together for 29 years, but he baulks at committing a blatant lie to paper.
It might also be possible that a religious (ie Catholic) ceremony was held, but the registrar was not available. So they would be married in the eyes of God, but the civil aspect of marriage was not completed. There ought to be no reason why that should happen in the 1880s, but it is feasible.
I am researching Thomas Connolly who married my aunt Edith Mary Sharratt in 1931.
Edith had a son (name removed in case still living) in Q2 1932. She died a year later in Q2 1933. I was thinking maybe she died in childbirth (just a hunch) although a second child wasn't registered. I ordered a PDF of her death certificate but received notification today that it cannot be produced as the original document is of poor quality.
I cannot find (name removed in case still living) nor his father Thomas (b. 29 Sep 1898 from baptism record) on the 1939 register, although I accept that (name removed in case still living) would have been only 7 years old and may be blanked out of any document. He could have also been living with relatives?
This whole branch of my family has turned out to be a bit of a mystery. I just wish I'd started this research a lot earlier when other aunts/uncles were still alive and may have been able to help.
Olde Crone
27-05-21, 09:57
Try ordering from the local reg office. Details on cheshirebmd. Their copy may be a better one!
OC
This is most likely Thomas:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/61596/images/tna_r39_3918_3918g_011?backlabel=ReturnSearchResul ts&queryId=e33d8765848d901f15e6a8d5ff3ace9a&pId=23841143
His year of birth is two years out, but the right month and day (my birthday lol!).
I'm just about to remove Thomas's son's name from your post as he may still be alive and we don't allow posts about living people without their permission. If you know he is dec'd I can add his name back later!
Oh, I just looked to see who the parents of Bernard are. I wonder if you have the correct Thomas for the husband of your Edith as it looks like that Thomas with dob 29 Sept 1896 was married to Florence Clews in 1916 and his wife in 1939 was Florence. There is also a Lucy Clews in the house who may be his mother-in-law. Of course this Florence might not be Florence Clews, but I can't see another potential marriage after 1933 to a different Florence.
maggie_4_7
27-05-21, 11:51
Could this be the right Thomas if that one isn't.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/24145150:61596?_phsrc=Kfq8360&_phstart=successSource&gsfn=Thomas+Patrick&gsln=Connolly&ml_rpos=1&queryId=5a01a582feff71c28133419c6f9f1a11
Second marriage:
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8753&h=52279676&tid=&pid=&queryId=abbf2f5c68d0680d88aac60d4ba7fcec&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Kfq8366&_phstart=successSource
Those links don't work for me as they are .com not .co.uk :(
kiterunner
27-05-21, 12:25
You can log into the .com site with the same username and password as the .co.uk one, Merry, or change the .com in Maggie's links to .co.uk
You can log into the .com site with the same username and password as the .co.uk one
I did that, but I didn't get taken to the entry.
or change the .com in Maggie's links to .co.uk
and I've just tried that, but it just switches back to .com as soon as I click enter. :o
maggie_4_7
27-05-21, 12:30
Those links don't work for me as they are .com not .co.uk :(
Amended first link just about to do the second.
Both done, now .co.uk
I always work in .com
Oooh, I've done it now - just have to look all through the link and chance all the .com bits to .co.uk and not miss one!! lol
maggie_4_7
27-05-21, 14:00
Just had a thought I assume John hasn't got Edith's marriage certificate to confirm that a Joseph Connelly was Thomas' father.
Maiden Name of mother Chapman
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp#Results
A Thomas Connolly married a Mary Chapman in the Wirral
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl?start=1907&end=1907&sq=4&eq=4&type=Marriages&vol=8a&pgno=884&db=bmd_1620111208&jsexec=1&mono=0&v=MTYyMjEyNTY1MDo3ODMzZjE0Nzk0OTgzMThjNGUxNTFjNjdj N2ZiYzkyNjc5MmMwOTg5&searchdef=surname%3DConnolly%26eq%3D4%26sq%3D1%26t ype%3DMarriages%26s_surname%3DChapman%26db%3Dbmd_1 620111208&action=Find
Possibly him on 1911
https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=Kfq8399&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&dbid=2352&gsfn=Thomas%20Patrick&gsln=Connolly&catBucket=rt&cp=4&_83004003-n_xcl=f&msfng=Thomas&msmng=Mary&msbdy=1908&msbpn__ftp=cheshire,%20england,%20united%20kingdom&msbpn=5257&new=1&rank=1&uidh=ek4&redir=false&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=0&h=5882080&recoff=&ml_rpos=1&queryId=09893c0470b45caef67b85aa445ba57c
Until John comes and confirms why Joseph and Elizabeth is Thomas' parents or could possibly be some other couple I will stop, maybe gone off on a tangent after reading Merry's post
Just had a thought I assume John hasn't got Edith's marriage certificate to confirm that a Joseph Connelly was Thomas' father.
I have the marriage cert on order. Was dispatched today from GRO so hopefully receive within next day or so.
The baptism for the Thomas I'm assuming to be correct gives his birth date alongside baptism date as 29 Sep 1898, and parents as Joseph & Elizabeth.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FCHS%2F4018965%2F00124&parentid=GBPRS%2FB%2F765713055%2F1
maggie_4_7
27-05-21, 15:20
I have the marriage cert on order. Was dispatched today from GRO so hopefully receive within next day or so.
The baptism for the Thomas I'm assuming to be correct gives his birth date alongside baptism date as 29 Sep 1898, and parents as Joseph & Elizabeth.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FCHS%2F4018965%2F00124&parentid=GBPRS%2FB%2F765713055%2F1
Okay so that will confirm Thomas' father's name and occupation.
I'm just about to remove his name from your post as he may still be alive and we don't allow posts about living people without their permission. If you know he is dec'd I can add his name back later!
Thank you, I didn't think. I've no idea if he is still alive but you're correct. Appreciate it.
kiterunner
27-05-21, 15:28
Good call, Maggie! FamilySearch has indexed the marriage entry as follows:
Name:
Thomas Connolly
Sex:
Male
Age:
22y
Father's Name:
Thomas Connolly
Marriage Date:
01 Jan 1931
Marriage Place:
, Hoose, Cheshire, England
Age (Formatted):
22y
Spouse's Name:
Edith Mary Sharratt
Spouse's Father's Name:
John Sharratt
For some reason they have Hoose although Cheshire BMD says Holy Trinity, Hoylake. I think Hoose is the old name for Hoylake. Anyway, it does say that Thomas's father was Thomas. When John's copy of the marriage cert arrives, it should also have Thomas sr's occupation.
maggie_4_7
27-05-21, 16:08
Good call, Maggie! FamilySearch has indexed the marriage entry as follows:
Name:
Thomas Connolly
Sex:
Male
Age:
22y
Father's Name:
Thomas Connolly
Marriage Date:
01 Jan 1931
Marriage Place:
, Hoose, Cheshire, England
Age (Formatted):
22y
Spouse's Name:
Edith Mary Sharratt
Spouse's Father's Name:
John Sharratt
For some reason they have Hoose although Cheshire BMD says Holy Trinity, Hoylake. I think Hoose is the old name for Hoylake. Anyway, it does say that Thomas's father was Thomas. When John's copy of the marriage cert arrives, it should also have Thomas sr's occupation.
Actually it was Merry that highlighted that John may have the wrong Thomas and therefore wrong census and parents.
Okay well my one might be the Thomas, I looked everywhere but Family Search.
So let us hope occupation is fairly distinct.
So they were both aged 22 on 01 Jan 1931, but Edith was 30 two years later?
I see the 30 is the more accurate, so she may have lied at the marriage because Thomas was younger!
Good call, Maggie! FamilySearch has indexed the marriage entry as follows:
Age (Formatted):
22y
Spouse's Name:
Edith Mary Sharratt
Spouse's Father's Name:
John Sharratt
I wonder if that's a typo or transcription error? Edith Mary was born in Hoylake 18 Jul 1902 (father John) and was 28 when she married. Possibly the same error for Thomas?
Cheshire BMD says Holy Trinity, Hoylake. I think Hoose is the old name for Hoylake.
Yes, that's correct. Hoylake was referred to as Hoose at one time. I was born and raised in West Kirby (the adjacent town).
kiterunner
27-05-21, 16:38
FamilySearch is just showing Thomas's age twice. I can't get it to show Edith's age.
maggie_4_7
27-05-21, 17:20
Well that marriage to Gladys Twist has his age 25 and father Thomas Connolly.
Name Thomas Patrick Connelly
Sex Male
Age 25y
Father's Name Thomas Connelly
Marriage Date 02 Apr 1934
Marriage Place , Moreton, Cheshire, England
Age (Formatted) 25y
Spouse's Name Gladys Lilian Twist
Spouse's Father's Name Thomas Harop Twist
Well that marriage to Gladys Twist has his age 25 and father Thomas Connolly.
Without a doubt I need to wait for the marriage cert to try and identify the correct Thomas.
If it is the one that married Gladys Twist in 1934 he certainly didn't waste much time after his wife's death before remarrying! I wonder if he is recorded as Bachelor or Widower on that marriage? Can't find a Parish Marriage entry for that marriage.
The baptism for the Thomas I'm assuming to be correct gives his birth date alongside baptism date as 29 Sep 1898
Isn't it likely this Thomas is the one who married Florence Clews in 1916?
Actually it was Merry that highlighted that John may have the wrong Thomas and therefore wrong census and parents.
Okay well my one might be the Thomas, I looked everywhere but Family Search.
So let us hope occupation is fairly distinct.
In 1911 that Thomas (b 1888 reg Q2) was a jobbing gardener and in 1939 (b 15 Apr 1888 and living in Hoylake, wife and children who fit) he was a nursery man, head worker, so there's a good chance of his occ being distinct if he's the right one. I will place a medium sized bet on him being right!
Another thing; in the household of Thomas (1908) and Gladys (Twist, 1909) there are two hidden entries. I can only see one likely child for them between their marriage and 1939, so the other hidden entry may well by the son of Edith Sharratt.
There's a tree here:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/1182455/person/132015880807/facts
with photos of some of the people you are interested in and also info on the son b 1932.
Marriage cert arrived today:
I Jan 1931 after banns
Thomas Connolly, 22, Bachelor, Labourer, 4 Station Cottages, Heswall
Father Thomas Connolly, Market Gardener
Edith Mary Sharratt, 28, Spinster, 1 Walker Street, Hoylake
Father John Sharratt, Labourer
Witnesses John Sharratt, Ellen Price
W.F. Warburton, Vicar
So it looks like I've spent many hours researching the wrong family!
I think what threw me was the ages. I just assumed her husband would be of the same age or older.
Message to self: Don't assume anything!
There's a tree here:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/1182455/person/132015880807/facts
with photos of some of the people you are interested in and also info on the son b 1932.
That would be really interesting to look at but I only have FMP.
I would take out a one month subscription on Ancestry to view it, but I've heard that it's not straightforward trying to cancel a subscription with them?
maggie_4_7
28-05-21, 11:06
Marriage cert arrived today:
I Jan 1931 after banns
Thomas Connolly, 22, Bachelor, Labourer, 4 Station Cottages, Heswall
Father Thomas Connolly, Market Gardener
Edith Mary Sharratt, 28, Spinster, 1 Walker Street, Hoylake
Father John Sharratt, Labourer
Witnesses John Sharratt, Ellen Price
W.F. Warburton, Vicar
So it looks like I've spent many hours researching the wrong family!
I think what threw me was the ages. I just assumed her husband would be of the same age or older.
Message to self: Don't assume anything!
Don't worry think we've all done that, I know I have but you are on the right track now. Not wasted its all good experience and yes don't assume. Its okay to be speculative as long as all avenues taken are researched until confirmation which you now have.
Looks like it could be the one I found and well done Merry for spotting that Thomas wasn't the Thomas. Joseph and Elizabeth's marriage will remain a mystery.
That would be really interesting to look at but I only have FMP.
I would take out a one month subscription on Ancestry to view it, but I've heard that it's not straightforward trying to cancel a subscription with them?
In case you decide not to bother, ths is what it says about the son, 1932:
(first names) Connolly was known as (middle name) and he was in the Merchant Navy and emigrated to Australia, last known address was Christies Beach, South Australia.
They have a photo of him and a poor one of his father. Also a photo of his step-mother, Gladys. They may be more connected to the Twist family as they have a lot more info on them (no parents for 1908 Thomas C), but that could just be because the name Twist is easier to research!
maggie_4_7
28-05-21, 11:27
There's a tree here:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/1182455/person/132015880807/facts
with photos of some of the people you are interested in and also info on the son b 1932.
John
Because you can't see it from that tree Edith's son looks like he may have emigrated to South Australia and was in the Merchant Navy but remember that is that person's research so you would need to confirm all of that. I am not putting his name he may still be alive.
Snap Merry has already posted.
There is a death on Ancestry for the correct full name, b 1932 died 1969 but it's in Western Australia. This might be a red herring!
Marriage cert arrived today:
I Jan 1931 after banns
Thomas Connolly, 22, Bachelor, Labourer, 4 Station Cottages, Heswall
Father Thomas Connolly, Market Gardener
Just curious now where the Thomas Patrick came from in his marriage to Gladys Twist?
Birth reg and marr to Edith both had just Thomas.
Patrick might be a name given at confirmation, or a self-bestowed name. I have ancestors who picked up names as they went along.
It's also on his death reg:
Name: Thomas Patrick Connolly
Death Age: 73
Birth Date: 3 Jul 1908
Registration Date: Jul 1981
[Aug 1981]
[Sep 1981]
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration District: Wallasey
Inferred County: Merseyside
Volume: 37
Page: 0937
Well that marriage to Gladys Twist has his age 25 and father Thomas Connolly.
Name Thomas Patrick Connelly
Sex Male
Age 25y
Father's Name Thomas Connelly
Marriage Date 02 Apr 1934
Marriage Place , Moreton, Cheshire, England
Age (Formatted) 25y
Spouse's Name Gladys Lilian Twist
Spouse's Father's Name Thomas Harop Twist
Another twist in the tale (pun intended)
I cannot find a birth registration for Gladys Lilian Twist
I have her baptism 29 Dec 1909 St Peter, Liverpool, parents Thomas & Annie
I have the marriage of Thomas Harop Twist & Annie Foreman Powell 1907
Also the births of Maud Evelyn Twist (1908) & Thomas H Twist (1912) both with mother's maiden name Powell, but nothing for Gladys Lilian.
Maybe it's just missing off FMP?
kiterunner
28-05-21, 18:44
I can't find her birth on FreeBMD, the GRO site, or Lancashire BMD. Her date of birth is given as 9 Nov 1909 in various places (baptism, father's army papers)
maggie_4_7
29-05-21, 09:47
There is a death on Ancestry for the correct full name, b 1932 died 1969 but it's in Western Australia. This might be a red herring!
I think it may be a red herring because there is an arrival in Freemantle in 1963 for that name and possibly the same man and he gives his Nationality as Irish.
maggie_4_7
29-05-21, 11:48
OK, seems reasonable!
I haven't found him on the outgoing UK passenger lists, I also looked at the NAA for incoming passengers to Australia including Air passengers didn't spot him, most had DOB on.
I haven't found him on the outgoing UK passenger lists, I also looked at the NAA for incoming passengers to Australia including Air passengers didn't spot him, most had DOB on.
Yes, I checked those and had no luck. I've also searched Merchant Navy & Maritime records but could not find anything.
I will persevere as he was a direct cousin of mine so would be nice to tie things up.
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