Betsy Marie Allcock [Archive] - Genealogists' Forum

JohnS

25-01-21, 12:23

Betsy Marie Allcock was born in Settle, Yorkshire 26 Dec. 1913

I have her father as Unknown Allcock amd mother as Unknown Pickford but can't, for the life of me, get any further.

She went on to marry Leslie Sharratt in 1941 and died in Wirral 21 Oct 2007.

She was a close relative and I'd really like to be able to research more of her ancestry if anyone can offer any help. Unfortunately my subscription to FMP has expired and I'm presently not in a position to renew.

ElizabethHerts

25-01-21, 12:34

Confirmation of the birth:

ALLCOCK, BETSY PICKFORD
GRO Reference: 1914 M Quarter in SETTLE Volume 09A Page 19

Phoenix

25-01-21, 12:43

Besty was a wardmaid in a hospital in 1939, so not with her parents. (Her dob given as 26 Dec 1914 probably a reflection of the way the question was asked)

Phoenix

25-01-21, 12:58

A John Allcock married an Ann Pickford in Settle..... in the September quarter 1939. Could this to be ensure her an old age pension?

kiterunner

25-01-21, 13:11

I think your next move should be to order a copy of her birth certificate from the GRO, John. Also her marriage certificate.

JohnS

25-01-21, 13:30

Besty was a wardmaid in a hospital in 1939, so not with her parents. (Her dob given as 26 Dec 1914 probably a reflection of the way the question was asked)

Would that have been in Hoylake, Wirral?
I knew she had been at a hospital there but thought it was as a patient.

kiterunner

25-01-21, 13:39

Also you could contact your local library service to find out whether they are offering free access to Findmypast or Ancestry from home during lockdown? But I do think you will need the birth and marriage certificates, which are unlikely to be on either of those sites anyway. You would be able to view the 1939 Register entry on either of those sites though.

kiterunner

25-01-21, 13:43

Would that have been in Hoylake, Wirral?
I knew she had been at a hospital there but thought it was as a patient.

Wallasey Cottage Hospital, Claremount Rd, Wallasey.

Phoenix

25-01-21, 13:44

This is the address in 1939, John:

Wallasey Cottage Hospital Claremount Road, Wallasey

(btw, I totally agree with Kite - and it would be interesting to see whether the father's details are identical on both certificates.)

JohnS

25-01-21, 15:42

A John Allcock married an Ann Pickford in Settle..... in the September quarter 1939. Could this to be ensure her an old age pension?

Forgive my ignorance Phoenix

What exactly do you mean by that? Do you think maybe they weren't married at the time of Betsy's birth (seema a long time to wait though 16 years)?

Not sure what you mean about a pension.

Phoenix

25-01-21, 16:33

There do not appear to be any siblings for Betsy (using the GRO website)

There are no clear candidates for Betsy's parents. This could mean that her mother married as a widow, but also possibly that her parents had never married.

The latter probably didn't matter until there was talk of ration books and war. It might also be the case that one party was not in a position to marry when Betsy was born.

This is all speculation in the absence of evidence one way or the other.

Merry

26-01-21, 11:07

My money is on John and Annie Al(l)cock who are living at Langcliffe nr Settle in 1911 and are still in the same house (by the look of it!) in 1939. In 1911 they say they have been married 12 years, no children, but in 1901 there seems to be no sign of them as a couple but there is a possible match for John but he's recorded as unmarried.

I have been looking for ways to prove they are Betsy's parents, but nothing as yet other than getting Betsy's certificates.

JohnS

26-01-21, 13:39

I've ordered a copy of her birth certificate and will update when I receive it.

I have a photo of Betsy's wedding to Leslie. Leslies mother is 66 at the time. Betsy's mother looks about the same age or possibly older (although it's always difficult to guess) which would have made her born 1865 or earlier. That would have made her 38 or older at the time of Betsy's birth.

JohnS

27-01-21, 15:04

kiterunner, Phoenix

How did you locate Betsy at Wallasey Cottage Hospital Claremount Road, Wallasey in 1939?

I've renewed my FMP subscription and can't locate her (even with variants set on the search)
If I do an address search for the hospital it only comes up with one name as resident.

kiterunner

27-01-21, 15:53

I think the short answer is "on Ancestry"! You will find her on Findmypast if you search for her as Sharratt instead - the register was kept updated with changes of name for many decades. FMP have transcribed her maiden name as Aniosk!

I don't know why the full list of names doesn't come up on an address search.

Oh, and here is the link to the image:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=TNA%2FR39%2F3971%2F3971D%2F017&parentid=TNA%2FR39%2F3971%2F3971D%2F017%2F02

Phoenix

27-01-21, 15:54

I just searched on fmp with betsy and birthday (ignoring year)

JohnS

27-01-21, 16:33

Thank you both so much.

JohnS

01-02-21, 15:03

Got birth cerificate today.

Born: 26 Dec 1913 Main Street Langcliffe
Name: Betsy
Father: John Allcock
Mother: Annie Allcock formerly Pickford
Father's profession: Limestone Quarries
Informant: Annie Allcock, mother, Main Street Langcliffe

It looks like the name Marie may have been added at her baptism or confirmation?
I think Merry is correct in identifying John and Annie (without children) in the 1911 census at the same address.
Assuming that the length of time married (12 years) is correct, I can't seem to find their marriage (1899 approx) anywhere.
Nor can I find deaths for either John or Annie. Annie was on Betsy's wedding photo in 1941 but not John so perhaps he had died by then or too ill to attend the wedding (although it was in Settle).

Merry

01-02-21, 15:34

Are you going to get the 1939 marriage cert? I would imagine this is the same couple, given they don't seem to have been married in 1898ish. This cert should confirm their fathers' details and may make it easier to pin them both down in earlier censuses. My next bet is that at least one of them was married to someone else before they got together! Perhaps an ex-partner died just before WW2 and so they could marry?

kiterunner

01-02-21, 15:49

So, for reference, this is the 1911 census entry:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2352/images/rg14_25731_0149_03?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx80822&_phstart=successSource&pId=38567663

Main Rd, Langcliffe, Settle, Yorkshire
John Allcock Husband 48 married 12 years, no children, Quarryman, born Cauldern(?)
Annie Allcock Wife 37 married, born Leek, Staffordshire

kiterunner

01-02-21, 15:54

And also for ref the 1939 Register for John and Annie:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/61596/images/tna_r39_3810_3810d_011?backlabel=ReturnSearchResul ts&queryId=3b43b3043ecaaf055e08c4083b0c7ea8&pId=23525479

Main Street, Settle
Alcock John dob 27 Feb 1862 Quarryman retired
Alcock Ann dob 27 Oct 1874 Household duties unpaid

kiterunner

01-02-21, 15:58

There is a John Alcock birth registration Jan-Mar 1862 Cheadle (the district which included Cauldon, Staffordshire). There are various Ann Pickford birth registrations at Leek, but not in the Oct-Dec quarter of 1874.

I agree you should get the 1939 marriage certificate to see their fathers' details etc.

kiterunner

01-02-21, 16:17

kiterunner

01-02-21, 16:20

JohnS

01-02-21, 18:04

There are 1871 and 1881 census entries for a John Allcock born about 1862 at Cauldon with parents Samuel and Ann(e), but you will want to see whether his father's name is Samuel on his marriage cert before doing much with those.

Yes, but what marriage?
I can't find a marriage around 1899 (which would tie in with the 1901 census information - married 12 years).

Phoenix

01-02-21, 18:20

John, Kite Merry and I all think that although John and Annie were together from at least 1911, they did not marry until 1939.

When the enumerator left the form in 1911, they could say that they weren't married - and brace themselves for what followed - or to state what the neighbours probably thought: that they had been married for years.

kiterunner

01-02-21, 18:21

Yes, but what marriage?
I can't find a marriage around 1899 (which would tie in with the 1901 census information - married 12 years).

You mean the 1911 census information, don't you? We are thinking it's not true, and that they are the couple who got married in 1939. After all, John seems to have been unmarried in 1901.

JohnS

03-02-21, 17:08

And this looks like John in 1901 but unmarried (I know this has been mentioned before, but just so we have the link close to hand):

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7814/images/DBYRG13_3270_3272-0308?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx80824&_phstart=successSource&pId=19354824

Harper Hill, Hartington Upper Quarter, Derbyshire
George Collis Head M 39 Longstone quarryman Cauldon Lowe, Cheadle
Elizabeth Do Wife M 33 Cauldon, Ashbourne
[several children]
John Allcock Cousin S 39 Longstone quarryman Cauldon, Ashbourne, Staffs

I decided to follow this lead and traced John back to his birth (and a couple of generations back).
I also discovered Ann Pickford back with her parents at the same time (1901) in the same hamlet. This is obviously where they would have met.
I've also traced Ann back to her birth (and a couple of generations back).

The only query now is why they both moved to Settle (1911 census). John was 12 years older than Ann - what was the attraction?

I am awaiting delivery of John & Ann's marriage in 1939 and if the fathers' names given on that tie up with my research I feel confident I have the right people.

I'm struggling to find deaths for John or Ann.
I do have a death in Wirral for Ann Allcock in 1952. Betsy and her husband lived in West Kirby, Wirral after the war and I do know that at some point they had Betsy's mother staying with them for a while.
Maybe she died while she was there? I think I may order a copy of that death certificate to check.
As for John, I have no idea.

kiterunner

03-02-21, 17:37

Maybe one of them was married to someone else and they ran away together? Then had to wait for the spouse to die before they could marry each other.

I had a look for John's death registration the other day but nothing obvious. Let us know when you get more certificates!

JohnS

04-02-21, 17:13

I do have a death in Wirral for Ann Allcock in 1952. Betsy and her husband lived in West Kirby, Wirral after the war and I do know that at some point they had Betsy's mother staying with them for a while.
Maybe she died while she was there? I think I may order a copy of that death certificate to check.
As for John, I have no idea.

Strange!
I found Ann in Wirral Q2 1952 and now I've found John in Wiral Q1 1952.
Maybe they were both in poor health and staying with Betsy and died within a couple of months of each other?
I will wait until I get the death certificate for Ann and if it's the right person I will order John's.

JohnS

09-02-21, 15:14

I found Ann in Wirral Q2 1952 and now I've found John in Wiral Q1 1952.
Maybe they were both in poor health and staying with Betsy and died within a couple of months of each other?
I will wait until I get the death certificate for Ann and if it's the right person I will order John's.

I've received Ann's death certificate which confirms that she died at the home of her daughter Betsy in West Kirby, Wirral, 04 Apr 1952, aged 77 which ties in with the birth I have of 27 Oct 1874.
It states that she was the widow of John Allcock which would tie in with the possible death of him in Wirral Q1 so I've ordered that certificate.

I'm still waiting for the marriage certificate in 1939.

kiterunner

09-02-21, 15:43

Glad to hear you managed to get the right death cert.

JohnS

12-02-21, 14:44

Received marriage certificate:

Married by License at Settle Register Office, 16 Sep 1939.
John Allcock 76, Bachelor, Formerly a Limestone Quarryman. Father Samuel Allcock (Limestone Quarryman deceased).
Ann Pickford 64, Spinster. Father Henry Pickford (Limestone Quarryman deceased).
Both resident at Main Street, Langcliffe at time of wedding.

This confirms research regarding their parents (thanks to all who helped/guided me). It confirms that neither were previously married as long as they were telling the truth! Ann did give her name as Allcock on daughter Betsy's birth certificate in 1913.

I don't think there is any way I can ever find anything about them between being in separate households in the same hamlet in 1901 census and living together in Settle in 1911 census (when/why they moved, etc.).

kiterunner

12-02-21, 15:13

We can narrow down the date of John's move a bit by looking at the West Yorkshire Electoral Registers on Ancestry.

1909: John Allcock listed at Langcliffe, Settle
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/3057/images/40759_1831115184_1927-00392?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx81805&_phstart=successSource&pId=42700075

Not listed there in 1908.

I suppose if you work on their family trees, following up what happened to their parents and their siblings etc, you might find another family member who moved to Langcliffe too, or either John or Ann named as a witness on a marriage cert, informant on a death cert, or some such, which might give you a clue. Also look at the newspapers on the British Newspaper Archive / Findmypast to see if there is anything about them on there.

JohnS

12-02-21, 16:54

Unfortunately I don't have Ancestry so I can't view that link.
I have been searching the Electoral Registers on FMP but they are pretty sparse for West Yorkshire and haven't come up with anything.

Since identifying John and Ann's parents (and grandparents) I have been delving into their records but, as of yet, have not come up with any of them making the move to the Settle area.
It would make sense if a relative (or even a friend) was working in the quarries up there and he joined them.

kiterunner

12-02-21, 18:49

This is a transcription of the Ancestry entry from that link:

1909.
Skipton Division of the Northern Part of the West Riding of Yorkshire - Settle Polling District.
Settle Electoral Division.
Township of Langcliffe.
OCCUPATION ELECTORS (other han Lodgers).
Division One - Persons entitled to vote as Parliamentary Electors, County Electors, and Parochial Electors.
Number: KP218
Name: Allcock John
Place of Abode: Langcliffe, Settle
Nature of qualification: Dwelling House (successive)
Description of Qualifying Property: Cottage, New street; Cottage, Main road.

JohnS

12-02-21, 21:57

Nature of qualification: Dwelling House (successive)
Description of Qualifying Property: Cottage, New street; Cottage, Main road.

Thank you so much kiterunner

Could you please explain the meaning of succesive and the reason why two properties are listed as qualifying?

kiterunner

12-02-21, 22:29

I believe it meant he moved from one to the other.

There is some info on here:

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=725441.0

JohnS

15-02-21, 17:38

I've received Ann's death certificate which confirms that she died at the home of her daughter Betsy in West Kirby, Wirral, 04 Apr 1952, aged 77 which ties in with the birth I have of 27 Oct 1874.
It states that she was the widow of John Allcock which would tie in with the possible death of him in Wirral Q1 so I've ordered that certificate.

Received John's death certificate which confirms that he too died at the home of his daughter Betsy, 05 Jan 1952, just three months before his wife Ann died there. They must have both gone to live with their daughter in old age/poor health.

I now have the daunting task of where the name Marie came from (Betsy Marie) as she was registered at birth as only Betsy. Can't find Baptism Records for Settle on FMP (in case they added it at Baptism) and have no idea how I could find out if it was added at Confirmation in later life.

kiterunner

15-02-21, 18:16

Was she a Catholic? The Catholic baptisms would be separate from the C of E ones and many of them are not online.

I have plenty of people in my tree who seem to have acquired middle names later in life which they didn't have when they were children. I wouldn't worry too much about it.