View Full Version : Advise /Guidance needed finding Irish relative
I have unfortunately come to bit of a brick wall, with tracing my Grandmother
Mary Kathleen Kelly, I have traced back to 1901 Census living with parents and siblings in Liverpool (surname on Census spelt Kelley) but that is as far back as I am able to go, I believe that she was born in Dublin 10th February 1889, Father John Kelly, mother Mary ?
I have no further information other than some sibling names, found on the census. If any one has any suggestions on where to look for further info I would be very grateful.
thank you for any help much appreciated
Pauline
kiterunner
17-12-20, 22:39
Welcome to the forum, Pauline.
For our reference, this is the 1901 census entry (or if not, please let us know!)
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7814/images/LANRG13_3411_3413-0334?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&pId=33758868
10 Court, 3 House, Tatlock Street, Liverpool
John Kelley Head M 47 Labourer in Distillery Ireland
Mary Do Wife M 45 Do
Agnes Do Daur S 16 Worker in Factory Ireland
John Do Son S 14 Do Do
Mary Do Daur S 12 Do
Joseph Do Son 9 Do
Patrick Do Do 6 Lancs Liverpool
Maybe we can find Patrick's birth reg to get Mary sr's maiden name, but of course there are going to be a lot of Patrick Kell(e)ys around! I had a look for them on the 1911 census but I think the family is split up by then; perhaps the parents had died between 1901 and 1911?
kiterunner
17-12-20, 22:59
I have had a quick look on the Irish Civil Records site and not found a birth record matching the details you have for Mary, but have to stop for the night now.
Hi
yes the 1901 details are correct, I did find her on the 1911 census in New Brighton occupation Domestic servant. Mary married in 1914 and marriage cert shows father deceased.
Tring to find the right John Kelly in Liverpool between these dates is impossible.
ElizabethHerts
18-12-20, 07:57
I notice that the last child, Patrick, aged 6, was born in Liverpool.
There is a baptism for a Patrick Kelly in Liverpool, parents John and Mary, in 1895.
Mary's maiden name was Brady (the mother). This might help you finding Mary Kathleen's birth.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2180/images/engl-56170_282-ant-1-12_m_00304?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=0df806ea0a75073a67e0be73f5d4f6e3&usePUB=true&_phsrc=MgJ189&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=1137521
Name: Patricius Kelly
[Patrick Kelly]
Age: 0
Birth Date: 2 Dec 1895
Baptism Date: 11 Dec 1895
Baptism Place: St Anthony's, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Search Photos: Search for 'Liverpool' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Father: Joannis Kelly
Mother: Mariae Brady
ElizabethHerts
18-12-20, 08:02
I found this birth registration but it might be too early:
Name: Kathleen Mary Kelly
Event Type: Birth
Event Date: Apr - Jun 1887
Event Place: Dublin South, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year: Apr - Jun 1887
Registration District: Dublin South
Volume Number: 2
To save me clicking back and forth - from the 1901 census already posted, the children shown are:
Agnes 16
John 14
Mary 12
Joseph 9
Patrick 6
the first 4 born in Ireland and Patrick in Liverpool.
If the details about Patrick's are correct (if!) and he was registered, then one of these two should be his birth reg (checked 1905-1906):
KELLY, PATRICK mmn CALLIGAN
GRO Reference: 1895 M Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 18
KELLY, PATRICK mmn DEVANNY
GRO Reference: 1895 M Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 50
So, the good news about those mmns is that they are not quite as common as Kelly and the bad news that they might be more easily subject to spelling variations.
The other interesting news is that both of those births are in St Martin's sub district of Liverpool (according to Lancs BMD) which is where the family are in 1901.
The less good news is that I've not found a John Kelly marrying either of those surnames in Ireland 1870-1895 (we dont know this Mary is the mother of all the children).
I have gone round in circles looking at different things, trying to get lucky, but mostly concentrating on the Kelly birth indexes in Dublin (and Morh and South Dublin) and not found anything to help yet (possibly because I tend to jump from one thing to another before finishing the previous though!!).
There are numerous reasons a marriage may not show up, etc etc but I think if this was my tree I might consider purchasing those two birth certificates from 1895 to see if it's possible to be certain one of them is the correct Patrick. It might show a prev married surname for Mary which could explain not finding a sensible marriage in Ireland etc etc
There's probably other searches that could be done to save from doing that and you could get lucky straight away, but you might think splashing out on two certificates is worth the expense to potentially save time. In my experience if you pay the money you will find the answer between the time you order is placed and the arrival of your puchase(s)!
When I searched for Mary Kelly b 1889 in Ireland I only looked at the entries for that name in Dublin (and North and South) and didn't see any with father John at all, regardless of the mother's name. I didn't look at all the registrations with no forename for the child as there were a lot :D so thats something you could try (at least some f those wil be children who had already died by the time they were registered, but I can't think of a way to sift those out, so you would have to look at them all.
I'll stop rambling now as I've just noticed it's 9.30am despite still being very dark outside!
I found this birth registration but it might be too early:
Name: Kathleen Mary Kelly
Event Type: Birth
Event Date: Apr - Jun 1887
Event Place: Dublin South, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year: Apr - Jun 1887
Registration District: Dublin South
Volume Number: 2
The father of that child is Patrick Kelly. (irish genealogy.ie)
[QUOTE=ElizabethHerts;386400]I notice that the last child, Patrick, aged 6, was born in Liverpool.
There is a baptism for a Patrick Kelly in Liverpool, parents John and Mary, in 1895.
Mary's maiden name was Brady (the mother). This might help you finding Mary Kathleen's birth.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2180/images/engl-56170_282-ant-1-12_m_00304?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=0df806ea0a75073a67e0be73f5d4f6e3&usePUB=true&_phsrc=MgJ189&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=1137521[QUOTE]
Oooh, I didn't find a birth reg for that one!
I really have to stop now, but maybe disregard what I said about purchasing those two birth certs given Elizabeth has this third candidate!! I really DO have to stop now and do something else......:)
I believe that she was born in Dublin 10th February 1889, Father John Kelly, mother Mary ?
I know you have Mary's 1914 marriage cert as you said it has father John, dec'd on it. I just need to know:
is "Mary ?" in the above quote just the forename of John's wife from the 1901 census, or did you already know Mary Kathleen's mother's first name was Mary from some other source?
What about the date of birth? What is your source for that? (EDIT - I've seen that is the date given at her death registration, but perhaps you had it from somewhere other than that?)
You didn't say who Mary K married, but I'm guessing it was Albert Cooper in Leeds? From the 1939 Register Mary's date of birth is given as 11 Feb 1893. Now this could be wrong and the date you mention could be right, however, if 1893 (or any other close year!) is actualy correct then could that mean you have the wrong family in 1901? I'm not saying you have gone wrong - a lot depends on whether I'm looking at the right people in 1939 and where you have your information from for her birth being 1889. Plus, maybe you knew the names of her siblings before you started searching.
ElizabethHerts
18-12-20, 09:46
There is a Public Member Tree on Ancestry for this family:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/81378714/person/302120413321/facts
Thank you all for the help and ideas, have a lot of work ahead, but you never know might get lucky.
Turn it on its head: if family history were all plain sailing, it would be boring!
If you haven't done so already, ask all your family members (not just the very oldest, but children and grandchildren as well) what they know about the family.
And ask the questions that you won't find out online: how people dressed, their favourite colours, games played at Christmas, where they went for holidays, names of neighbours, what football team they supported. Not only does that give a texture and a context for your family, the odd story may well provide extra clues to take the family back.
Hunting around the church records on Irish Genealogy, I rather fancied this cluster:
All children of John Kelly & Mary Brophy
1. Agnes Xtina Kelly, b.16.Jan 1885; 56 Georges St. Sponsor Catherine Kelly
2. John Kelly, b.2 Jan 1887, bap 3 Jan 1887; 19 W Esset St
3. Mary Catherine Kelly, b. 10 Feb 1889, bap 11 Feb 1889; 11 W. Essex St
4. Martin Joseph Kelly, b. 28 Dec 1890, bap 1 Jan 1891;
Also a possible which may refine a possible Kelly/Brophy marriage
Twins Christina & Christopher Kelly, b. 21 Dec 1877, bap 26 Dec 187; 94 St Clanbrazil st
All Dublin
Most of these have no images available but I have taken screen shots where I can and can forward them to you if you pM an email address. Otherwise, look for yourself on https://www.irishgenealogy.ie
Search Church Records and use the advanced search facility to look for baptisms for Kelly, father John, mother Mary Brophy in Dublin for the 1800s
OK....how about this?
18 Nov 1877 at the RC Parish Church, Harrington St
Joannes Kelly, of 3 Lennox Lane, s/o Jacob Kelly and Cath. Boe [?] married Maria Braphy [Brophy] of 24 Clan Brassil St, d/o John Braphy[Brophy] & Elizabeth Phelan
Looks like a shotgun wedding, but not sure if there are more births to fill in the gaps between the twins and Agnes. Doesn't look like the twins survived, but will go back to look at the deaths.
I know you have Mary's 1914 marriage cert as you said it has father John, dec'd on it. I just need to know:
is "Mary ?" in the above quote just the forename of John's wife from the 1901 census, or did you already know Mary Kathleen's mother's first name was Mary from some other source?
What about the date of birth? What is your source for that? (EDIT - I've seen that is the date given at her death registration, but perhaps you had it from somewhere other than that?)
You didn't say who Mary K married, but I'm guessing it was Albert Cooper in Leeds? From the 1939 Register Mary's date of birth is given as 11 Feb 1893. Now this could be wrong and the date you mention could be right, however, if 1893 (or any other close year!) is actualy correct then could that mean you have the wrong family in 1901? I'm not saying you have gone wrong - a lot depends on whether I'm looking at the right people in 1939 and where you have your information from for her birth being 1889. Plus, maybe you knew the names of her siblings before you started searching.
Mary in the above quote is what I got from the 1901 census, no idea who her mother was. Date of birth again from the 1901 census, but looking at the marriage certificate her given age does not match that date. States 22 years old in October 1914 so would make birth year around 1892.
I did know that she had a sister called Agnus and that is what made me think I had the right one.
Possibly have the wrong family as she was living in Leeds when married and only 22.
Once again thank you for help, this is hard.
Ok, that's interesting.
Any family as witnesses to the marriage?
Did you get "born in Dublin" from somehwere, or did you already know that from family?
Do you know what happened to the sister, Agnes? Do you have a married surname for her? That could help a lot!
Oi! Do you not think the Mary born 10 Feb 1889, bap 11 Feb 1889 in Dublin (see posts 15,16) are relevant? I know her second name was 'Catherine', not 'Cathleen'.....but they tend to be pretty interchangeable in my experience of hunting out Irish families. And the other children are all there as on the 1901 census.
Sorry Bev, I must have missed that. Sometimes I start a post and it takes several hours to actually post it, so I don't see what's gone in between!
Yeh, having looked back now I see I have wasted my entire afternoon! lol
Amongst the various addresses on Albert's war record, there is Mrs Feggans 26 John Street, Ayr, Scotland. As Albert appears to be English, would Mrs Feggans be a relation of Mary's?
The witnesses to the 1877 Kelly-Brophy marriage lived at 6 Lttle Ship St (Jacobus Kelly) and 36 Synge St (Mary Ryan) The groom, John Kelly lived at 3 Lennox Lane and the bride, Mary Brophy at 94 Clanbrazil St. All these addresses are near each other in Portobello, Dublin.
Incidentally, would I be correct thinking that 'Jacobus' is the Latinized version of 'James' (or the Irish 'Seamus'? I used to have a site that offered Irish/Latin equivalents, but I've lost it.
I suspect the 1885 Agnes Xtina Kelly bapt. would be 'Agnes Christina'.
Filling in a few gaps:
Christopher Kelly died 1878, scarlet fever
Christina Kelly died 11 Sep 1883, also of scarlet fever
Elizabeth Ann Kelly b, 26 Jan 1880,bap St Nicholas, Dublin, d. 8 Oct 1881, dropsy
There is a tree on Ancestry with these people -seems to be accurate.
kiterunner
19-12-20, 11:58
Incidentally, would I be correct thinking that 'Jacobus' is the Latinized version of 'James' (or the Irish 'Seamus'? I used to have a site that offered Irish/Latin equivalents, but I've lost it.
I suspect the 1885 Agnes Xtina Kelly bapt. would be 'Agnes Christina'.
You are right on both of these.
Ok, that's interesting.
Any family as witnesses to the marriage?
Not family members, can make out a Fred Hardy and I think Mary Lizzie Coates
Did you get "born in Dublin" from somehwere, or did you already know that from family?
1911 Census I found a Mary Catherine Kelly Domestic Servant Dublin Ireland
Do you know what happened to the sister, Agnes? Do you have a married surname for her? That could help a lot!
No idea sorry. the only concrete information I have that I can trust is the marriage certificate and that is proving not very helpful. :confused:
On the 1939 census it shows her birth date as 11/2/1893
ElizabethHerts
19-12-20, 14:24
It might be helpful if you were to give us all the details from the marriage certificate.
As you aren't sure if the 1901 census if for the correct family, we need to know the correct information from the one reliable source you have.
But Bev did find the baptism which looks to be the correct one, in Feb 1889. And that does tie in with other baps that match the family on the census (post #15).
It might be helpful if you were to give us all the details from the marriage certificate.
As you aren't sure if the 1901 census if for the correct family, we need to know the correct information from the one reliable source you have.
Ok I have in Front of me
Married 3rd October 1914 St Patricks Church Leeds. Mary Catherine Kelly age 22 Spinster, 55 High Street Leeds Father John Kelly deceased baker. witnesses Fred Hardy Mary Lizzie Coates.
But Bev did find the baptism which looks to be the correct one, in Feb 1889. And that does tie in with other baps that match the family on the census (post #15).
If the birth date on the marriage cert is the correct one then that means possibly I have the wrong 1901 census family
kiterunner
19-12-20, 15:24
John Kelley on the 1901 census was a labourer in a distillery, which doesn't match with the father's occupation of baker on the marriage cert. I don't know whether the baptisms that Bev found show father's occupation? Off to check...
ElizabethHerts
19-12-20, 15:30
Yes, it is details such as the father's occupation that could help.
Amongst the various addresses on Albert's war record, there is Mrs Feggans 26 John Street, Ayr, Scotland. As Albert appears to be English, would Mrs Feggans be a relation of Mary's?
This is after Mary has married Albert Cooper, so might provide a clue to Mary's family. Do we know what happened to Mary's siblings?
For what it's worth.......it is not unknown for the bride to fiddle with her birth date if she happened to be older than the groom. I have several instances on my own tree. It would be quite likely to retain the date/month and alter the year.
Not saying your Mary Catherine actually did this, but I know for a fact my own Irish grandmother was a bit casual about her dates.
If I remember correctly, I think the John Kelly I unearthed was a labourer....I don't think occupation was entered on the Dublin baptismal records, only on his marriage cert.
I think the family I found corresponds with the one cited on the 1901 census -but whether it is your Mary Catherine's family, I cannot say. More detail required about siblings, I think.
I can't find birth certificates for any of the children Bev found baptisms for. I was hoping the father might have been a baker in Ireland even if he wasn't in Liverpool!
*waits for Kate's return from the baptism records* :)
Cooper70, do you know anything at all about any of Mary's siblings (I mean tales from family, not research)? Or anything about any cousins of your father (ie the children of Mary's siblings) - any tiny snippet could be a breakthrough!! If you don't know anything, is there anyone else who might?
(I still think it's likely Bev has the right set of irish baptisms, but it would be good to have something more to tie everything together for certain)
kiterunner
19-12-20, 15:56
Most of the baptism records don't have images available yet, and those that do don't show the father's occupation. I couldn't find birth registrations, though if they were registered without first names, they wouldn't have come up on my searches.
But I did find this which could possibly be the death of Christina, one of the twins:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1883/06354/4823089.pdf
South Dublin - 11 Sep 1883 Mercy Hospital, Christina Kelly, 1 Vercoyles Buildings, age 5 years 7 months, child of John Kelly, baker. Informant John Kelly, father (made his mark).
ElizabethHerts
19-12-20, 15:58
That's progress, Kate, with the father's occupation.
kiterunner
19-12-20, 15:59
Also on the John Kelly / Mary Brophy marriage cert, John was a baker.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1877/11150/8084221.pdf
So it does all seem to fit together. Looks like Mary just knocked a few years off her age, which was pretty common.
Looking good!
Kate, I think unnamed babies are listed as Unknown (for firstname) on the Irish site, but Male or Female on Ancestry.
I can't find birth certificates for any of the children Bev found baptisms for. I was hoping the father might have been a baker in Ireland even if he wasn't in Liverpool!
*waits for Kate's return from the baptism records* :)
I get very pessimistic looking for Irish birth registrations. A lot of the time, they just didn't bother. All that they seemed to value was the baptismal record. I never did bother to buy the birth reg for OH's grandfather as knew very well that the aunt who lodged the paper war fudged the d.o.b to avoid being fined for late registration:(
But I didn't look at all the unnamed children because I'd lost the will to live by then.
I get very pessimistic looking for Irish birth registrations. A lot of the time, they just didn't bother. All that they seemed to value was the baptismal record. I never did bother to buy the birth reg for OH's grandfather as knew very well that the aunt who lodged the paper war fudged the d.o.b to avoid being fined for late registration:(
Bev, you don't have to pay any more, they are free to view online.
kiterunner
19-12-20, 16:20
Looking good!
Kate, I think unnamed babies are listed as Unknown (for firstname) on the Irish site, but Male or Female on Ancestry.
Yes, what I meant was that I only searched for them by first name, because the mother's maiden name has not been indexed for those years and it would take forever to go through all Kelly births without a first name.
Found the birth & death regs( 1880, 1881) for Elizabeth Kelly d/o John Kelly & Mary Brophy.... father's occupation in both is 'baker'
Does anyone know if you can search an address? on the marriage it gives marys address I thought it might help if I knew who she was living with.
kiterunner
19-12-20, 21:47
We could search for the address on censuses and maybe on electoral registers, street directories etc.
kiterunner
19-12-20, 21:49
But I wonder whether there was more than one High Street in Leeds, though?
kiterunner
19-12-20, 22:01
There does only seem to have been one High Street, Leeds, thankfully.
1911 census for 55 High St:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2352/images/rg14_27092_0327_03?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx75618&_phstart=successSource&pId=38066480
Louisa Nixon, 62, widow, born Doncaster.
kiterunner
19-12-20, 22:24
I should add that addresses on marriage certs aren't always the place where the person normally lived - they would sometimes stay somewhere for a few weeks so that they were officially resident in the parish where they wanted to get married.
But I think the Mary that you found in the 1901 census is the right one, because of the birthday of that Mary turning out to be 10 or 11 Feb, despite the year being out, and because of her father turning out to have been a baker in Ireland, matching the father's occupation on your Mary's marriage cert.
There does only seem to have been one High Street, Leeds, thankfully.
1911 census for 55 High St:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2352/images/rg14_27092_0327_03?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx75618&_phstart=successSource&pId=38066480
Louisa Nixon, 62, widow, born Doncaster.
how did you do that please?
Bev, you don't have to pay any more, they are free to view online.
True...but the document is still useless as the information recorded is not correct :( A fellow cannot have been baptised two months before he was born ;(
Yes he can! Many people have lied to the registrar about the dob of the child to avoid a fine for late registration - my father-in-law's parents for starters! Admittedly, the difference was smaller than two months (about three weeks), but it did happen!
Yes he can! Many people have lied to the registrar about the dob of the child to avoid a fine for late registration - my father-in-law's parents for starters! Admittedly, the difference was smaller than two months (about three weeks), but it did happen!
My point exactly....I trust the baptism in the Presbyterian church in Letterkenny.....and have no faith in the birth reg later, especially as the informant (an aunt) registered the birth of a niece at the same time. I think she couldn't find time to leave the farm to travel into town to attend to the regs until harvest was out of the way :D. OH's family were back in Glasgow by then so they obviously weren't about to raise any objections.
lol
I am also know of of two English birth certs from the 1930s where the father of the children recorded his ex-wife as the mother even though she was far too old to be having babies! I often wonder what the two biological mothers thought about that (if they knew!)
kiterunner
20-12-20, 11:22
how did you do that please?
I searched the 1911 England Census Summary Books (link below) for Lived In - Leeds, Yorkshire, England and Street Address - 55 High (I didn't put St or Street because I didn't know which it would say) and it came back with name Nixon Mrs.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/1708/
Then I searched the 1911 England Census (link below) for Last Name - Nixon, Lived In - Leeds, Yorkshire, England, Keyword - High, Relation to Head - Head, Gender - Female. But I got no match results, so I removed the Last Name from my search, tried again, and got 30 matches. I looked through them and saw one was "Louisa Nivon" and when I viewed it, the street address was 55 High St Leeds. I don't know why you can't just search the census (on Ancestry) for the street address in the first place. You can on Findmypast. Someone has recently put in a correction for the surname, but maybe it will take a while for it to come through on searches.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/2352/
Leeds electoral rolls are on FMP:
Parliamentary Borough of Leeds, Central Division
Constituency: P B of Leeds, Central Division
Year: 1914
Season: -
Part: 1
Register type: Parliamentary Borough
Polling district or place: Leeds
County: Yorkshire
Country: England
Archive: The British Library
Archive reference: SPR.Mic.P.364/BL.L.8
Image number: 1255
Record set: England & Wales, Electoral Registers 1832-1932
Category: Census, land & surveys
Subcategory: Electoral Rolls
Collections from: Great Britain, England
55 High St Leeds - Harry Hardwick
Electoral registers 1832-1932 Image
Constituency in full: Parliamentary Borough of Leeds, Central Division
Constituency: P B of Leeds, Central Division
Year: 1915
Season: -
Part: 1
Register type: Parliamentary Borough
Polling district or place: Leeds
County: Yorkshire
Country: England
Archive: The British Library
Archive reference: SPR.Mic.P.364/BL.L.8
Image number: 1234
Record set: England & Wales, Electoral Registers 1832-1932
Category: Census, land & surveys
Subcategory: Electoral Rolls
Collections from: Great Britain, England
55 High St Leeds - Harry Hardwick
I could only find him in those two years, and there are several Harry Hardwicks in Leeds in 1911 so I don't know which one he is. Did Albert Cooper put the same address at the marriage, or different?
Leeds electoral rolls are on FMP:
Parliamentary Borough of Leeds, Central Division
Constituency: P B of Leeds, Central Division
Year: 1914
Season: -
Part: 1
Register type: Parliamentary Borough
Polling district or place: Leeds
County: Yorkshire
Country: England
Archive: The British Library
Archive reference: SPR.Mic.P.364/BL.L.8
Image number: 1255
Record set: England & Wales, Electoral Registers 1832-1932
Category: Census, land & surveys
Subcategory: Electoral Rolls
Collections from: Great Britain, England
55 High St Leeds - Harry Hardwick
Electoral registers 1832-1932 Image
Constituency in full: Parliamentary Borough of Leeds, Central Division
Constituency: P B of Leeds, Central Division
Year: 1915
Season: -
Part: 1
Register type: Parliamentary Borough
Polling district or place: Leeds
County: Yorkshire
Country: England
Archive: The British Library
Archive reference: SPR.Mic.P.364/BL.L.8
Image number: 1234
Record set: England & Wales, Electoral Registers 1832-1932
Category: Census, land & surveys
Subcategory: Electoral Rolls
Collections from: Great Britain, England
55 High St Leeds - Harry Hardwick
I could only find him in those two years, and there are several Harry Hardwicks in Leeds in 1911 so I don't know which one he is. Did Albert Cooper put the same address at the marriage, or different?
That is very interesting Albert Coopers Half Sister Charlotte Bullock married a Harry Hardwick in 1911 Her marriage certificate show his address at the time Bowling green yard High St Leeds, her address high St Leeds no number.
Leeds electoral rolls are on FMP:
Parliamentary Borough of Leeds, Central Division
Constituency: P B of Leeds, Central Division
Year: 1914
Season: -
Part: 1
Register type: Parliamentary Borough
Polling district or place: Leeds
County: Yorkshire
Country: England
Archive: The British Library
Archive reference: SPR.Mic.P.364/BL.L.8
Image number: 1255
Record set: England & Wales, Electoral Registers 1832-1932
Category: Census, land & surveys
Subcategory: Electoral Rolls
Collections from: Great Britain, England
55 High St Leeds - Harry Hardwick
Electoral registers 1832-1932 Image
Constituency in full: Parliamentary Borough of Leeds, Central Division
Constituency: P B of Leeds, Central Division
Year: 1915
Season: -
Part: 1
Register type: Parliamentary Borough
Polling district or place: Leeds
County: Yorkshire
Country: England
Archive: The British Library
Archive reference: SPR.Mic.P.364/BL.L.8
Image number: 1234
Record set: England & Wales, Electoral Registers 1832-1932
Category: Census, land & surveys
Subcategory: Electoral Rolls
Collections from: Great Britain, England
55 High St Leeds - Harry Hardwick
I could only find him in those two years, and there are several Harry Hardwicks in Leeds in 1911 so I don't know which one he is. Did Albert Cooper put the same address at the marriage, or different?
Alberts addres on the marriage certifacte was 66 HIgh Sgtreet Leeds.
That is very interesting Albert Coopers Half Sister Charlotte Bullock married a Harry Hardwick in 1911 Her marriage certificate show his address at the time Bowling green yard High St Leeds, her address high St Leeds no number.
Oh, Ok, so this is that couple in 1939:
30 Jackson House, Leeds
Harry Hardwick m b 7 Apr 1889 Railway shunter
Charlotte A Hardwick m b 28 Jan 1889 Unpaid domestic duties
and their daughter:
Doris Hardwick s b 26 Dec 1919 Binding, printing (checked mmn on birth reg - Cooper rather than Bullock)
Two further entries are redacted
Living nextdoor is an Agnes Kelly s b 29 Mar 1914. This is probably her birth reg:
Births Jun 1914
KELLY Agnes Lewis Leeds 9b 796
She is living with her mother Sarah A Bolton, late Kelly, formerly Lewis. Sarah was previously married to a James Patrick Kelly m Q2 1907 Leeds. JPK says he is 40 b Leeds on the 1911 census, so no immediate connection to your family, and as Kelly is such a common name there may not be a connection, but I thought I should flag it up!
John Kelly, s/o John Kelly & Mary Brophy, married Catharine Golding 9 Jan 1916 at St Mary Highfield St Liverpool
https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/2182/images/engl56170_282-hig-2-4_m_00175?pId=809868
It seems to be a descendant of this branch of the family that has a public tree on Ancestry' although they do not have all of the children shown
https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/101611257/person/230010074576/facts
Also Joseph Kelly (aged 9 in 1901) married in 1918:
Joseph Kelly, s/o John Kelly & Mary Brophy, married Elizabeth Shaw 15 Jul 1918 at St Mary Highfield St Liverpool.
I was going to post up the 1939 Register info for this couple and John and Mary, but you can see it on the tree Bev posted for both couples.
15 July 1918 Joseph Kelly. s/o John Kelly & Mary Brophy mar. Elizabeth Shaw
https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/2182/images/engl56170_282-hig-2-4_m_00188?pId=1200809934
Aah....England is awake! Merry pipped me at the post!
lol Bev! I wouldn't call myself awake just yet!!
Interesting......Joseph went through two ceremonies, one RC, the other C/E (11 Feb 1918). In the latter, he is described as a 'soldier'. Wonder if that was why the C/E ceremony. I had something similar in my family, back in 1867 and always wondered if it had something to do with British Army regs?
https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/2197/images/englb5617_283-all-3-1_m_00221?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=CRL9418&_phstart=successSource&pId=4788783
Are they both recorded in GRO, Bev? I wonder whether the RC ceremony included a civil ceremony.
Today, some religions will have a civil ceremony on one day, and a religious ceremony on another.
The Catholic marriage doesn't seem to be in the GRO index. I looked at the one before and after and they don't show either. The one before (July 1918) has a GRO ref for Q1 1918, same as the Kelly/Shaw marriage, but the entry after (also July) doesn't have any GRO record in 1918.
There is a Joseph Kelly/ Shaw marriage listed:
Q1 1918; RD: Liverpool; vol:8b;page #:87
https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8753&h=64773015&tid=&pid=&queryId=0c58ad35b1ab820f76aedd11e4329ca1&usePUB=true&_phsrc=CRL9431&_phstart=successSource
Darn - I'm being an echo again. That would be the C/E marriage I guess. Perhaps RC marriages didn't ;count' then. I know when my fellow married his girl in a RC ceremony in Brisbane, it didn't show up in the official records. He got married again in Barracks a year later....and as the first son was born a couple of days later, I always assumed it was a shotgun affair. It took a fellow genealogist to unearth the earlier wedding.
Joseph seems to have done the dual marriage bit in reverse. Perhaps the first one to satisfy the Establishment and the second one to appease the family
Are they both recorded in GRO, Bev? I wonder whether the RC ceremony included a civil ceremony.
Today, some religions will have a civil ceremony on one day, and a religious ceremony on another.
Yes - but these two ceremonies are months apart ;(.
Perhaps RC marriages didn't ;count' then.
The RC marriages certainly should be in the GRO indexes and I have seen other people have two ceremonies (Cof E and RC) and both are listed. At the start of civil registration a registrar would have been required to attend an RC marriage, but I don't know when/if that changed.
John Kelly, s/o John Kelly & Mary Brophy, married Catharine Golding 9 Jan 1916 at St Mary Highfield St Liverpool
https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/2182/images/engl56170_282-hig-2-4_m_00175?pId=809868
It seems to be a descendant of this branch of the family that has a public tree on Ancestry' although they do not have all of the children shown
https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/101611257/person/230010074576/facts
I have had a look at this and they do not mention an Agnes who I know for sure existed.
I have had a look at this and they do not mention an Agnes who I know for sure existed.
Lots of people don't bother about adding all the side branches to their trees or at least if they upload a tree to ancestry they don't include everything, so I wouldn't worry about it!
I have had a look at this and they do not mention an Agnes who I know for sure existed.
The tree doesn't mention Patrick either. It might be worth your while to contact the tree owner just to compare notes. At least this tree seems to be well sourced, not like so many which are products of wishful thinking and heated imaginations :p
The tree doesn't mention Patrick either. It might be worth your while to contact the tree owner just to compare notes. At least this tree seems to be well sourced, not like so many which are products of wishful thinking and heated imaginations :p
Thank you have sent a message to the owner. All of you have been such big helps.
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