View Full Version : Phillip Growt 1686 Parents
Hello all. I am trying to validate the baptism and find the parents of my ancestor Phillip/Philip Growt/Grout. From Family Search I have a suggestion that he was baptised at St Mary's Braughing Herts on 4 February 1686 but there is no record number shown, just the suggestion of "Ch record" which I take to mean Church record.
I think he was the son of another Phillip Growt and an unknown wife.
He had 2 brothers (I think) also baptised at St Mary's Braughing - James bap 30 Jan 1684 and Thomas 14 Oct 1691, both with Father Phillip and both taken from England, Select Births and Christenings.
Phillip jnr was next recorded in a marriage with Dinah Starky (cant find any other records for her..) on 6 Oct 1734 at St Michaels Bishops Stortford, Herts (England and Wales Marriages but no record numbers)
Phillip and Dinah then have 5 children, all baptised at Braughing.
If his father is another Phillip Growt, born/bap about 1659 then we have another search for Phillip snr's baptism. We think he was the son of Robert Growt and his second wife Elesabeth but again , no record to confirm.
My wish to confirm both these Phillip Growts is to take my direct line back those two generations and to confirm that I am descended from Robert and Elesebeth Growt. Any help or suggestions much appreciated. Regards, Jenthec (Jenny from Australia)
I have the Philip who married Dinah Starky on my tree, but haven't gone back from him as he and his wife are not my relatives. Also, I remember now, not finding his supposed 1705 (?) baptism. <<<<EDIT See post #13 about this 1705 business!
Glossing over that, as I probably didn't look hard, there's an image on FMP for a bap 4 Feb 1686 at Braughing Phillip son of Phillip Growt. No further detail.
I will post up more a bit later if no one else has, as I should be doing jobs right now!
There are images for Philip's (1686) brothers, Jeames (James) son of Phillip Grout of Stondon (Standon) bap 30 Jan 1684/5 (This entry has been transcribed as both Jeames and Thomas) and Thomas son of Phillip Grout bap 14 Oct 1691, both at Braughing.
If his father is another Phillip Growt, born/bap about 1659 then we have another search for Phillip snr's baptism. We think he was the son of Robert Growt and his second wife Elesabeth but again , no record to confirm.
When you say, no record to confirm, what info do you have?
ElizabethHerts
19-10-20, 08:03
The baptismal record is on FMP:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FHERT%2F004946661%2F00040&parentid=GBPRS%2FB%2F71390375%2F1
ElizabethHerts
19-10-20, 08:05
This is the baptism for James:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FHERT%2F004946661%2F00039&parentid=GBPRS%2FB%2F71390326%2F1
Spelled Jeames. They were from "Stondon" - Standon.
Thomas:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FHERT%2F004946661%2F00041&parentid=GBPRS%2FB%2F71390476%2F1
Re Dinah Starky - The image of the marriage entry actually reads Starkyn and there is the potential for further letters as the binding of the register stops any more being visible.
I'm wondering if this is her?
Dinah Starkins bap 24 Oct 1709 at Standon, parents George and Margaret.
There's no image for that one (Hertfordshire Baptisms record set, FMP), but there are a few other Starkins baptisms with the same parents and no other spellings.
Thanks Elizabeth. I should have put the links, but I was down from two fingered typing to one finger as I had the cat all over me, stamping on the kepboard and then curling up on my lap, but hanging off on one side so I lost the use of one arm whilst I supported her (not inconsiderable) body weight :rolleyes:
Have you found a baptism for Philip 1705? If not, can you be sure he is the son of Philip bap 1686 and not the son of his brother James, or someone else?
EDIT _ See post #13!!
ElizabethHerts
19-10-20, 08:51
Phillip Grout juna (junior) buried 5th December 1706
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FHERT%2F004946661%2F00130&parentid=GBPRS%2FD%2F72305439%2F1
Philip Grout buried 24th July 1716
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FHERT%2F004946661%2F00132&parentid=GBPRS%2FD%2F72305567%2F1
both at Braughing.
ElizabethHerts
19-10-20, 08:54
Burial of daughter An:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FHERT%2F004946661%2F00080&parentid=GBPRS%2FD%2F72305124%2F1
27th April 1689
daughter of Philip
I'm blaming the cat for me saying there was no image for Dinah Starkins baptism!
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FHERT%2F004946690%2F00037&parentid=GBPRS%2FB%2F71572075%2F1
ElizabethHerts
19-10-20, 09:03
Robert Grout "Church Clerke" buried 16th April 1699
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FHERT%2F004946661%2F00082&parentid=GBPRS%2FD%2F72305299%2F1
re my EDIT of post #2....
I've just realised from reading your opening post again (properly!!), that you think Philip bap 1686 is the person I've got being born in 1705! So, I've assumed an extra generation.
I see a lot of trees on Ancestry have Philip b 1686 and dying in 1778 which of course is possible, though making him significantly older than his wife, which is also possible. However, I have this from his grave (assuming it's him, I mean!)
Braughing churchyard Grave ref A4
Philip Grout who died March 30th 1778 aged 73 (might read March 3rd aged 75!)
Ties in well with the PCC will of 1778. He was buried 24th March (not a date in Feb as some trees have) at Braughing, so the exact date is a bit iffy, but the gravestone might have been put up some time later. I should have a photo of the grave somewhere, unless a photo was no help! Probably about 12 or 14 years since I went there, so I don't know if I will be able to find the photo if it exists!
As I can't find a baptism I don't know who his father was, but imagine it was one of those boys baptised in the 1680s-ish.
I would have thought the burials in Elizabeth's Post #9 could be for Philip bap 1686 dying in 1706 and his father in 1716.
I guess it's unlikely Philip jr was married by aged 20, so more likely one of his brothers was the father of Philip b 1705ish. If Philip was born before 1705 he's probably James' son and if he was born a bit later he could belong to James or Thomas, or some other person we haven't traced yet!!
The Philip grout who died in 1716 left a will so hopefully if you were able to access that, it might help you with which Philip he is (and sorting one Philip may help with the others!)!
Name: Grout, Philip
Dates: 1717
Place: Braughing, Herts., Hertfordshire, England
Book: Marriages at Curry Rivel, 1642 to 1812. (Marriage)
Collection: Essex, Hertfordshire: Chelmsford - Wills, 1620-1720
Volume: Index To Wills Now Preserved In The Essex Record Office Chelmsford
Chapter: 1620-1720
Text: 1717 Grout, Philip, collar maker, Braughing, Herts. 102 MR 9
You can pay to view that will online here:
https://www.essexarchivesonline.co.uk/All_Results.aspx?intSearchType=12
There's also this entry on the same site:
1733 Will of James GROUT of Puckeridge, BRAUGHING, Hertfordshire, collarmaker
This could be the father of Philip b abt 1705 and son of the Philip who died in 1816 and who wrote the will in my previous post.
It looks likely that Thomas, bap 1691 died as a child:
Braughing burials 1691
Thomas the son of Phillip Grout Dec 11th
And then there's another burial....
Braughing burials 1694
Thomas the son of Phillip Grout April 13th
Oh my! So many suggestions from you wonderful people. Philip Grout who died 1778 - I have a copy of that Will and it was he who was married to Dinah (her surname to be determined later). They are the parents of my ancestor Philip born 1737. If we look into Merry's graveyard inscription, it gives Philip Grout dying 30 March 1778, aged 73. That date of death fits with the Will but it makes the birth in 1705 which takes us back to one Merry mentioned earlier. So now if we (temporarily) forget the Philip baptised 4 Feb 1686, son of Philip and his brothers, do we now look for a 1705 baptism with different parent/s??
If it were me the first thing I would do would be to purchase a sub to Essex Archives so you can view the wills of James Grout 1733 and of Philip Grout 1717. Even if they are unhelpful in not naming people, I am sure they are for your relatives of one sort or another, so the money won't be completely wasted and they have the potential to sort things out for you!
I've not used the Essex Archives site myself, but others here have. Here's EAs page about subscribing:
https://www.essexarchivesonline.co.uk/subscriptionservice.aspx
Paying a subscription on Essex Archives Online allows the user unlimited access to images of Essex parish registers, wills and electoral registers for the length of the subscription period. Images of parish registers, wills and electoral registers are available by subscription only, so you should register so you can save your search results and then subscribe when you have a good enough list to make it worthwhile.
I tried searching just the word Grout and there's loads of stuff! (including more who lived in Braughing and other nearby places in Herts).
If you have any questions about using the site and/or getting the most out of it, it might be best to start a new thread for that - I'm sure someone will be able to help. :)
I just searched Grout on Hertfordshire Names Online and whilst I didn't spot anything new (doesn't mean there isn't anything new!) I did notice that their site has the marriage of Philip and Dinah indexed thus:
Philip Grout of Braughing Dinah Starkyns Bishops Stortford marriage register 6 Oct 1734
which I don't think it was previously!
I was just reading the will of Philip Grout 1778 again and had completely forgotten that he asked for a matching headstone to his wife and to be buried next to her, but I imagine her stone hasn't survived or I would have recorded the inscription when I visited. The will suggests she was definitely buried in Braughing, but this doesn't appear to be recorded in the PRs. Now the images are available on FMP it might be worth a browse to see if there's any clues.
(no sign of any photos of any Grout stones in Braughing, sorry)
I must have accessed the monumental inscriptions records for Braughing as I wouldn't have recorded Philip's grave ref 'A4' without that. I don't remember paying for them though (!!), but I suppose I must have done. I'll have a look and see if anything comes to light later.
Thanks Merry. Yes I registered with Essex Archives Online but I haven't paid a subscription yet as I already have copies of both those Wills. Philip G mentions his son Philip Jnr who is one of the Executors and also mentions his beloved wife Dinah, so that is how I know that we have the correct Philip and Dinah and son Philip.
James Grout d 1733 was a Tailor from London, leaving everything to his wife Mary. Don't think they are connected to my family.
I'll keep working on Dinah. Select Marriages have about 3 entries and they all spell Starky but that may be how it was written in the Marriage register. Interesting that the Hertfordshire Names Online has different spelling.
For now my focus is to try to find a baptism record for Philip Grout (various spellings) for 1703-05, if that Braughing Gravestone information is correct?? Many thanks for your help - we will get there (I've been saying that for most of the year in lockdown!!)
I already have copies of both those Wills. Philip G mentions his son Philip Jnr who is one of the Executors and also mentions his beloved wife Dinah, so that is how I know that we have the correct Philip and Dinah and son Philip.
Yes, I have that will too, it's the 1778 PCC one. I meant the 1717 Essex will for a different Philip Grout (possibly the grandfather of Philip who had the PCC will).
I'll keep working on Dinah. Select Marriages have about 3 entries and they all spell Starky but that may be how it was written in the Marriage register. Interesting that the Hertfordshire Names Online has different spelling.
The marriage register definitely says more than just Starky. I would presume Herts RO will have looked at it properly! The image on FMP shows Starkyn, but the S could be into the binding of the register. I'll post the image if you don't have access to FMP.
James Grout d 1733 was a Tailor from London, leaving everything to his wife Mary. Don't think they are connected to my family.
Are you sure that's the same will? The one I posted about here says James was a collarmaker from Puckeridge, Braughing and I'm sure I saw his burial in Braughing too.
A collarmaker is a leatherworker (horse collars), nothing to do with tailoring!
I've just seen the will for James Grout, tailor of St Sepulchre on Ancestry. It was proved in 1731, two years before the death of James Grout whose will is on the Essex site and I'm sure was buried in 1733 in Braughing (I will check when I'm on my other computer as FMP doesn't work on this one!)
Oh help! I'm getting confused now..... need to go to sleep (Australian time!)
lol I know the feeling!
Here's the PR for Dinah Starkyn(s)
https://cnhhza.db.files.1drv.com/y4mQD30GuPX6okw4Te6vfHaf5kQoCG54_pHTPUMdsQfdAsXo-d_VOkKMAr834A9GbSOUaDhy97OXXX8-ezD2gAc0ZenIHO0Vxy1fmcRhfEI9fg47LcdftpSdSEM0APfmqO 3CVq4mbtdIuPnOEB6-fIEwAezMjPEGw4c2_lB9MUaPohxlNQyUKkx6r0jWjlz_wgMHrE se1xn44EHAj-6rFLKwQ?width=660&height=105&cropmode=none
So, the N falls into the spine of the register, but Herts Archives seem to think there is an S after the N.
I just checked James Grout. He was buried 30 Aug 1733 at Braughing and his will is the one in Essex Archives, not the LMA will for the tailor (the tailor was buried 2 Jan 1731 at St Sepulchre, Holborn)
Having failed to find a photo of Philip Grout's gravestone (1778), I'm going to look and see if I still have the bit of paper I wrote the inscription on when I was in the churchyard, to see if there are any clues about Dinah!
Ok, so I've found the pieces of paper from our visit to Braughing and the surrounds. Goung by a photo of my children taken in Braughing churchyard it was probably about 2009/10.
It's probably easiest if I just type everything I've written, rather than trying to work out what you may or may not have......see next post....
I think we must have been to the Herts RO and looked at the transcribed monumental inscriptions and grave reference numbers for the churchyards as I've used pencil to write the inscriptions (no pens allowed in the archives!) and then I've ticked each one (different pencil!), presumably as we found them in the churchyard!
These are the Grout entries:
Standon:
Grave ref F114 - STTMO (sacred to the memory of) Mrs Sarah grout wife of Philip Grout dep. this life the 22nd May 1818 aged 71
Also Mr Philip Grout Jan 30th 1819 aged 82 (this one is ticked)
Braughing:
(right against the road in the corner)
A1 IMO Mary wife of James Grout who died at The Mount, Braughing on Nov 16th 1862 in her 70th year.
A2 - STTMO James Grout late of Puckeridge who died May 16th 1840 aged 60 years.
A4 - Philip Grout who died March 20th 1778 aged 73 (or Mar 3rd aged 75!)
(the above three are ticked, but I've not recorded any further inscriptions that we couldn't find, suggesting Dinah's grave was long gone.)
All the rest of the information I've kept is about my Smiths.
Now I'm going to look at the burial records for Braughing from the date of the last child baptised for Philip and Dinah in 1744 through to when he wrote his will in 1777 in case there's a clue about Dinah.
Back later.....
The burial records from 1744-1763 are really easy to read, no glaring gaps and no impossible to work out entries. Of course that doesn't mean there are no missing entries!
After 1763 the handwriting goes downhill so I had to slow down! Again no obvious gaps and whilst the handwriting is more difficult, there are a lot less instances of people not being fully described (such as Widow Smith or the child of Mr Parker). Having said that there's the very occasional use of Mr X or Mrs Y with no first name. On 8th Aug 1774 there's an entry that looks like it says Mr Grout:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/browse?id=gbprs%2fhert%2f004946661%2f00144
If this was a man and someone worthy of being described as Mr I hoped there might be a will for him, but of course there doesn't seem to be! Could be a slip of the pen - maybe the vicar couldn't remember her first name (being a more unusual name) and meant to write Mrs Grout! Of course we shall probably never know. We might need someone to go to the churchyard with a trowel and see if Dinah's stone has fallen flat next to Philip's and perhaps has been covered by the grass :rolleyes:
I was going to show you a photo of myself at the graves of James and Mary Grout in the front row at Braughing Churchyard. I didnt have any references so they were the only Grout graves I could find that day but I was happy to find them.
This could be a long post - Wills. I took a subscription with Essex Records Online and focused on the following 4 Wills, not all of which I have read in full yet as they are very hard on the eyes. Chronologically they are -
5 July 1717 John Grout of Braughing Butcher, death unknown so far. Beneficaries are grandchildren John, Elizabeth and Ann, children of his DAUGHTER Elizabeth who is wife of Thomas? Baker and another Elizabeth, daughter of his SON John. No mention of wife. Executor Thomas Baker (son in law?)
12 Dec 1717 Philip Grout of Braughing Collarmaker Death? Mentions wife Ann, sons Philip, James and William (Very difficult to read - need more time to check)
8 Jan 1720 John Grout of Standon Husbandman Mentions wife Alice? sons John, Thomas and Richard, daughter Mary (Might not be connected but Standon is nearby to Braughing and Puckeridge)
30 May 1733 James Grout of Puckeridge Collarmaker Mentions Mother Ann, still alive in 1733 Brothers Thomas and Philip (Executor) Sisters Ann and Susanna. No wife, no children?? Will proved 27 Sep 1733 so death between May and Sept 1733
Havent yet worked out how or if any of these connect - need to draw some diagrams. The siblings mentioned in James' will might all be children born in 1680,s putting them in their 50's - not that old. Off to the whiteboard..... Jenny
Oooh, well, not quite what I predicted, but then that's pretty normal!!
Lol re the photo!! I have one of my children at the grave of their 5x great-grandparents, John and Mary Smith, in Braughing churchyard. It took my 25 years to get from thir son to them and I still haven't got any further back!
It is pouring with rain here all day today and I'm going nowhere because of coronavirus, so if you want any help with trying to transcribe anything I'm very willing to try and help, but, as you see, I do nave a tendency to take over, so I completely understand if you would rather work on it yourself.
I'm really glad you got all the wills. I'm sure they will help in the end!
Would Philip Grout buried Braughing 24 July 1716 be the same person as Philip Grout Will proved 12 Dec 1717? Would a Will and estate take that long to process??
ElizabethHerts
21-10-20, 09:14
That's quite normal. It can take a lot longer before a will is proved.
I'm trying to connect James d 1733 as son of Philip d 1716/7 He has brothers Thomas and Philip and sisters Ann and Susanna still alive in 1733 - and Mother Ann.
Philip who died 1716 m. Ann and had sons James, Philip, Joseph and Benjamin (d.1728) but no daughters mentioned in will written in 1698. I'm not getting much success looking for baptisms on FMP so I can't quite make the connections....
Thanks for offer to transcribe, would love to send you one but how do I get it to you? Thanks but I'll leave it for now. Off to sleep again and need to rest my eyes.
I'll pm you my email addy
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