Number of witnesses at marriage

[ElizabethHerts]

The Lost Cousins Newsletter has a paragraph about the number of witnesses on a marriage entry in the PRs in 1803. There were 13.

This got me thinking about my great-grandparents' marriage certificate in 1891 in Portsmouth.

I have noted them:

Louisa Hubbert Quintrell (bride's sister)
John Quintrell (bride's father)
Fanny E Quintrell (bride's sister)
Mary D Quintrell (bride's sister)
Bessie White (groom's mother)
W E White (groom's father)
T B Quintrell (Tom Bromley bride's brother)
Frank Quintrell (bride's brother)
S. Tye ?
Charles Knott (a doctor who married Fanny Quintrell)
M R-?
Stennet Sandall
Maude Cooper

So I have 13 on the marriage certificate.

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=S2%2FGBPRS%2FPORTSMOUTH%2F103772539%2F00 107&parentid=GBPRS%2FPORTSMOUTH%2FMAR%2F00186059%2F2

Frank Quintrell and Louisa Quintrell also married at Portsmouth but didn't have quite as many witnesses as their sister.

[Merry]

I can't see your link because my sub to FMP has expired (!) but assuming it's the parish record entry, I wonder what you would receive if you ordered a copy of the GRO version?

Do you have any Quaker marriage records with everyone present as a witness?

I only have these for pre-1837, as the Quakers on my direct line all married in non-Quaker ceremonies after that date, except one couple - My great-grandparents married in the Quaker Meeting House in Adderbury, Oxfordshire, but I've never purchased a copy of the GRO certificate because I have this hanging on our dining room wall:

https://dngvkg.db.files.1drv.com/y4mRmgN8lUOi40LHXoh3h6Q77gxDJMk6MqG2xImOMEN9zPQoNc yG2ooQGJVSo2ITpskQzEYByAJjlFffW3ufCTRxrjLx8Xm2CqRm jOxgtZXnzM8WfBgQ0pz3hr4Oi7ItSwUGqV0voDiETN_JJV0X8m 0k6G-XZocG4sI9X71LPfFwj2cUJq6B5vBM6S7Pw59P8Y8TrnyywofGt gJ8y9Q3WeKQg?width=576&height=1024&cropmode=none

It's not a great photo because of the reflections! My g-grandfather, Henry Clark was an artist as well as a teacher, and was good at calligraphy!

There are 12 witness signatures at the bottom. I doubt that was everyone at the wedding - more likely the only people Henry managed to have sign this version, given he probably created it after the event and he and his wife lived about 80 miles away from Adderbury. There could be further signatures on the reverse - I've never seen it out of the frame.

[Merry]

Of course because I've always had easy access to the above version of the certificate, I've never really looked at it properly :o Today I'm going to investogate who those witnesses were, which will get my out of doing HW :D

[ElizabethHerts]

I think I have the physical certificate somewhere, Merry. I'll got and have a look after I've finished my coffee.

Yes, lots of witnesses at Quaker weddings - usually the whole congregation.

[kiterunner]

This is the Quaker marriage of my 8xg-grandparents, Jonah Cator and Sarah Browne, 23 May 1686, at Ross on Wye:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7097/images/41815_b0153319-00012?pId=342801

18 witnesses' names.

[kiterunner]

As for marriage certificates, I'm sure I have one with about 6 witnesses on it, but nowhere near 13.

[Olde Crone]

I have a church marriage entry with 11 witnesses, one of whom was so excited she signed it twice, lol. It was a double wedding.

Merry - what a beautiful thing to have.

OC

[ElizabethHerts]

The GRO certificate has all the witnesses too, which I thought it did.

This is the marriage of my 4x-great-grandparents (Quakers) Joseph Jeffcoat and Mary Eaton:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7097/images/41815_b0153922-00045?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=787129e41c68267b325f2621facc3e89&pId=98645

There seem to be 38 witnesses!

[Merry]

Thanks OC.

The GRO certificate has all the witnesses too, which I thought it did.

Interesting. I wonder if they still did when there were too many to squeeze on?!

I have quite a few with between 20 and 30 signatures. This one:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7097/images/41815_b0153655-00288?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=5a74abb316d5c1620bf2fd2b867cb55f&pId=289740

has 40, but isn't the original. John Tyler and Mary Tayler are my 5xg-grandparents.

[Mary from Italy]

Are the originals of pre-1837 Quaker marriage certs available anywhere? I have a marriage in Coventry that I'm really interested in, because the original signatures might help me solve a mystery, but the signatures on the Ancestry image all look suspiciously similar.

[Merry]

I think it may have depended on when and where you married as to exactly what happened with the records. An 'original' certificate would be given to the bride and groom. I have several of these and they all have original signatures of the whole congregation.

The instructions given to Quaker meetings after 1753 state that 'a full copy of the certificate (including witness names) should be kept with the registers'. I think it's likely this instruction was complied with in different ways!

I have just looked at Ancestry's records to compare with the original certs I hold. One of them is an exact copy in as much as all the witness names are recorded, but they are all in the same hand. Two others are signed by just a handful of the number of people on my copy, but they are original signatures and on Ancestry's version those few people have included their town of residence and occupation, which are not recorded on my copy. Another two have all the signatures and they are all original and signed in the same order (I think!) as my copy, suggesting the two documents were probably created at the same time.

My comments only relate to pre-1837 records as, though I have two or three more Quaker marriage certs from after 1837, I don't have anything to compare them to.

There's further info here:

https://www.qfhs.co.uk/public_html/research.htm#Registers

with some links to other pages that may tell you more. I haven't looked!

[Merry]

Read the parts about registers and digests of BMDs further down the linked page in my last post.

[vita]

What lovely thing to have on display, Merry. Last year I had the only known image of my favourite

ancestor framed as a birthday present to myself. The original is owned by yhe Royal College of Music &

they let me use it for an article, so I naughtily had it enlarged before taking it to the framers who did

a brilliant job. Fave now has pride of place on living room wall.

[Merry]

That's lovely vita!

[marquette]

The most I have is six witnesses - first 2 only 2 witnesses but the third one the one.

On 31 Aug 1808, Charlotte Bennett married Joseph Rawlings at St Mary, Whitelackington Somerset. Witnesses Aaron Bennett (brother), Sophia Rawlings (sister)

On the same day at the same church, William Bennett married Elizabeth Waldron - witnesses James Rawlings and Mary Bennett (sister).

On 19 April 1810 at St John, Frome, Somerset, William Bennett married Sophia Rawlings their witnesses were - C Bennett, J Bennett, Miriam Bennett (sister of Aaron and Charlotte), F Rawlings, D Rawlings and J Rawlings.

I have not been able to figure out if the William Bennetts are the same person, but given the witnesses, it seems likely. Elizabeth Waldron has the same surname as Charlotte and Willliam's mother (Rebecca Waldron) but I have not been able to find the connection as many of them were non-conformists.

[Mary from Italy]

Thanks, Merry.

[Nell]

Envious, the most I've had is four. Often the witnesses are illegible. I think they should have to print their names and also state how they are connected to the bride/groom ie whether relatives or not. Would save a lot of sleuthing!

I have two great-great-great aunts, who were married within 2 months of eachother, their weddings are consecutive in the marriage register and they witnessed for eachother. I assume they were eachother's bridesmaid/maid of honour. They were close as the son of one married the daughter of another.