This might be interesting [Archive] - Genealogists' Forum

vita

08-10-20, 11:10

While sorting out room room this week helper came across some old b & d certs
I hadn't known I'd got. I've done very little on my late mother's side & from
these I discovered that that her paternal line had a long history of working the
canals/rivers around Shopshire & Cheshire. I've done a bit of preliminary work
but don't have any subscriptions at the moment so wondered if anyone could
help fill in the gaps. Also, I just had a look a Rootschat to see if anyone else
was researching the family & a post from earlier this year is about John Potter
'a coloured man' whose daughter Charlotte m a Richard Randles. John Potter
is described as a mariner, working the flatboats around Chester & the name Richard crops up time & again in my mother's line.
Her father was John Randles,b abt 1887, son of Richard Randles, waterman, b Dudleston Shropsire.I've got various Richards, Johns & a couple of Samuels
going back to 1720, but without the means to do any really in depth research.
The 'coloured' I find particularly intriguing. Would anyone be kind enough
to have a go at helping me with this?

Merry

08-10-20, 11:15

If you could be a bit more specific about what info you need!

kiterunner

08-10-20, 11:26

For ref, this is the Rootschat thread, but I will wait to hear what exactly you want help with:

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=802593.0

vita

08-10-20, 11:28

If you could be a bit more specific about what info you need!

Anything, really Merry! I've got dates for various Randles who look like probable family members so its confirmation really I'm looking for to prove I'm
on the right track.
For instance, 'John Randles b 1812 Chester (just a few miles from where my
Mum was born) m Ann Parry 22nd June 1847 St John,Liverpool.'
Or - John Randles b 1762, son of Richard Randles, wet glover b 1720. In 1777 John was apprenticed to John Sorton of Chester,another wet glover.
Just looking to confirm that these are indeed mine.

Merry

08-10-20, 11:36

Just looking to confirm that these are indeed mine.

We would need to connect them to whoever you are certain of going back from your mother.

So, where does the line go cold going back from her?

vita

08-10-20, 11:42

Well, the only thing I know for certain is that John b 1887 was my grandfather, making
waterman Richard of Dudleston my g/grandfather. So not exactly cold, more like tepid
due to me not having the wherewithal to delve any deeper.

Merry

08-10-20, 11:45

lol I got that wrong then!! I just looked and thought your John was the one born Q2 1888 with different parents!

Is the 1887 birth cert one of the documents you found?

kiterunner

08-10-20, 11:48

Is this the family in 1891?

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/6598/images/CHSRG12_2863_2866-0494?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx65987&_phstart=successSource&pId=1448830

117 Garden Lane, Chester
Richard Randles Head M 44 Waterman Cheshire Chester
Emma Do Wife M 44 Not known
Mary Do Daur S 18 Cheshire Chester
Lizzie Do Do S 6 Scholar Do Do
Richard Do Son S 16 Printer Do Do
Charles Do Do S 10 (?) Scholar Do Do
William Do Do S 9 (?) Do Do Do
John Randles Son S 5(?) Cheshire Chester
Fred Do Do ?? Do Do

I can't be sure what most of the ages say as there are thick lines drawn through them.

Merry

08-10-20, 11:48

Or perhaps you have your grandparents marriage cert with that info on it about his father?

Merry

08-10-20, 11:49

I do hope it's the family Kate is transcribing as the other lot look difficult!

Merry

08-10-20, 11:55

vita, is yours the one who died in 1937, not 1943?

vita

08-10-20, 11:58

Or perhaps you have your grandparents marriage cert with that info on it about his father?

Yes, grandparents m cert, 1914. Both were living at Marsh Cottages, Sealand

(two different addresses!) which is where my mother was born.

Haven't been able to read Kite's Ancestry post so can't confirm 1891 info at the

moment.

Merry

08-10-20, 12:01

Ok, I had the right marriage but the wrong couple in 1939 (because your grandfather was dec'd?), so I had the wrong dob for him and therefore the wrong father as I hadn't seen the cert!

Thanks goodness for that! lol

vita

08-10-20, 12:01

vita, is yours the one who died in 1937, not 1943?

Not sure, but 1943 I'd guess 1943.

vita

08-10-20, 12:02

Not sure, but 1943 I'd guess 1943.

Sorry - got distracted !

kiterunner

08-10-20, 12:07

Vita, I updated my post to add in the transcription if you want to go back and have another look at it.

Merry

08-10-20, 12:09

So, from the census record Kate posted, the mmn for the children is Richardson, so:

Marriages Mar 1870
RANDLES Richard Chester 8a 461
Richardson Emma Chester 8a 461

Funnily enough, the 'other' (wrong) John Randles (B 1888) was the son of another Randles/Richardson couple! (perhaps they are all related?!)

Merry

08-10-20, 12:11

Sorry - got distracted !

That's worrying if your John is the one on the 1939 register though. What do you know about his wife Lily (Wright). Do you know her birthday or anything?

(I have to keep telling myself, you have the marriage cert, you have the marriage cert, you have the marriage cert! lol)

Merry

08-10-20, 12:18

Ah, I may have worked it out now.

You said your grandfather was born 1887, but he was born 1888. He is the one on the 1939 register with wife Lily and died in 1943. This is his birth reg:

RANDLES, JOHN mmn RICHARDSON
GRO Reference: 1888 J Quarter in CHESTER Volume 08A Page 419

This was the birth reg I attrubuted to the child of a different couple on the 1891 census.

So, as you were!

Merry

08-10-20, 12:22

Transcription of the marriage cert for Richard and Emma:

St Oswald, Chester

27 Mar 1870

Richard Randles 23 bachelor waterman Emma Richardson 23 spinster

both of Pitt Street

fathers: James Randles, waterman and Charles Richardson tailor

Emma signed and Richard made his mark. Witnesses Joseph Boswell (mark) Emma Edwards (signed)

Merry

08-10-20, 12:29

1851 census:

St Oswald Chester

Tower Street

James Randles Head married 36 flatman b Chester (the whole family are born in Chester)
Ann Randles wife m 36
Jane Randles dau 12
John Randles son 11
Ann Randles dau 6
Richard Randles son 4
Thomas Randles son 2
George Randles son 9 months

Merry

08-10-20, 12:41

I think this is the correct birth reg for Richard:

RANDLES, RICHARD WHETTON
GRO Reference: 1846 D Quarter in GREAT BOUGHTON Volume 19 Page 48

but I can't as yet find the marriage of his parents or the family in 1841.

Merry

08-10-20, 12:43

lol Here's the marriage - I was looking for the wrong first name for James!

First name(s) JAMES
Last name RANDLES
Birth year -
Marriage date 12 Apr 1833
Marriage year 1833
Church St. John the Baptist
Place ST JOHN THE BAPTIST, CHESTER
Spouse's first name(s) Ann
Spouse's last name Wetnall
Bride's age -
Bride's birth place -
Bride's residence St. John the Baptist, Chester
Bride's marital status Single
Groom's residence St. John the Baptist, Chester
Groom's marital status Single

Some of Richard's siblings have mmn much closer to Wetnall than Whetton.

Merry

08-10-20, 12:50

1841 census

Tower St (again - as 1851)

James Randall 25 labourer Yes
Ann Randall 25 Yes
William Randall 7
James Randall 1
Jane Randall 4
John Randall 2mths

So Jane is a different age, but looks likely to be them.

Next door are more Randalls, this time spelled Randles

Jane 45 Yes
Ann 20 yes
Ellen 9 Yes
George 4 Yes

I wondered if Jane is James' mother?

kiterunner

08-10-20, 12:52

The family tree that I was looking at earlier does have Jane as James's mother:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/6598/images/CHSRG12_2863_2866-0494?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx65987&_phstart=successSource&pId=1448830

vita

08-10-20, 13:03

That's worrying if your John is the one on the 1939 register though. What do you know about his wife Lily (Wright). Do you know her birthday or anything?

(I have to keep telling myself, you have the marriage cert, you have the marriage cert, you have the marriage cert! lol)

Nor sure if you still want her info but here it is anyway - b 16th Aug 1889, Eaton Hall, Chester, where her father was gamekeeper for the Duke of Westminster. Think they lived in the much less grand Lodge where her mother had the job of opening the gates for carriages to pass through. I believe she was the only one of their children to be be born there, which pleased her immensely.

-

Merry

08-10-20, 13:05

Hmmm, there are two baptisms around the right date for James, but they both have the same parents names. ....

Both at Chester, St Oswald, Cheshire

June 16 1814 James son of James and Jane Randles Gorse Stacks (?) labourer

May 5 1816 James son of James Jane Randles Brook St flatman

So, either two couples or the same couple and probably the first James died. Will look for a burial....

vita

08-10-20, 13:07

Meant to add, thanks for your efforts. Picture getting a lot clearer now. Wonder where Charlotte Potter & husband Richard Randles fit in, if at all?

Merry

08-10-20, 13:11

Nor sure if you still want her info but here it is anyway - b 16th Aug 1889, Eaton Hall, Chester, where her father was gamekeeper for the Duke of Westminster. Think they lived in the much less grand Lodge where her mother had the job of opening the gates for carriages to pass through. I believe she was the only one of their children to be be born there, which pleased her immensely.

OK, so that is definitely the Lily on the 1939 register. Her OH was b 8 April 1888 (from memory, but exactly a week after my grandfather's birth, so I think I remember correctly!). That matches with the earlier birth reg I posted and he died in 1943, plus there's a probate entry for him which mentions his widow.

I lied about those two baps being at the same church. The 1814 one is at St Oswald and the other one is at St John the Baptist (both Chester).

-[/QUOTE]

Merry

08-10-20, 13:13

No obvious burial between those baps, so may be two couples. I don't have time now to check out other baps to see how that pans out, but I will look later if no one else has!

kiterunner

08-10-20, 13:16

That tree on Ancestry has a comment about the two baptisms at different churches, Merry. The tree owner doesn't seem to have managed to figure it out yet.

vita

08-10-20, 13:22

1816 James looks likely - flatman was a boatman, wasn't it?

Phoenix

08-10-20, 14:07

1816 James looks likely - flatman was a boatman, wasn't it? - seems to be particularly in use in Cheshire. Boatman in a flat-bottomed boat.

vita

08-10-20, 14:12

- seems to be particularly in use in Cheshire. Boatman in a flat-bottomed boat.

Yes, thats right. Who knew I came from a long line of water boatmen ?????

Only confirms my long held suspicions - I am very much my father's daughter!

kiterunner

08-10-20, 14:44

Okay, so looking back at post #4 for the people who you want to connect to your tree, several public trees on Ancestry have the John Randles born 1812 as the son of Samuel Randles and Ann Bettley, with Samuel being baptised 1786 at Dudleston, Shropshire, son of Richard Randles b 1757 and Jane Powell. Then that Richard's father is down as Richard born 1720, so the John b 1762 is great-uncle of the John b 1812. If the trees are correct, of course.

So can we connect James b 1816 to these people, I wonder.

kiterunner

08-10-20, 15:01

Some trees have James's father down as James born about 1786, the son of George Randles and Christian Pemberton, but I haven't found any which go back past George. Might need more than a "quick and dirty tree" approach!

vita

08-10-20, 15:21

Merry

08-10-20, 15:59

As you said earlier, the baptism where the father is a flatman is more likely to be the correct baptism for your James, but this needed further investigation....

All these children have parents James and Jane, so I've just listed the date, church (in Chester), address and occ of father, to see if there's a pattern....

James 16 June 1814 St Oswald Gorse Stacks (?) labourer

Richard 11 Apr 1816 St John the Baptist Flookersbrooks labourer

James 5 May 1816 St John the Baptist Brook St flatman

Mary 2 Aug 1818 St John the Baptist Brook St labourer

Jane 31 Dec 1820 St John the Baptist Brook St flattman

Ann 13 Jul 1823 St John the Baptist Brook St labourer

Martha 31 Jan 1826 St John the Baptist Charles St flattman

Elizabeth 23 Jul 1828 St John the Baptist Wellington St labourer

Helen 14 Apr 1833 St John the Baptist Flookersbrook flatman

George 4 Mar 1837 St John the Baptist Tower St flatman

So, having Richard and the second James baptised close together in date and also two James's baptised makes it look like two families, but I can only find one marriage:

James Randles, labourer, and Jane Roberts, spinster, banns, 26 Jul 1813 St Oswald, Chester. Witnesses William Griffith and Ann Roberts. All made their marks except William Griffith.

Merry

08-10-20, 16:10

I had rather assumed that James (husband of Jane and father of James b 1814/16) was dec'd in 1841, but he's back in 1851!

Tower Street again.

James Randles head married 63 Flatman b Chester
Jane Randles wife married 57 b Chester

They have two grandchildren with them, surname Hopley aged 10 and 12.

Phoenix

08-10-20, 16:11

So it's possible from Merry's list that James was actually born c 1814, but when the family moved the child was baptised again.

kiterunner

08-10-20, 16:18

"Flookersbrooks" is my favourite word of the day.

Merry

08-10-20, 16:20

Yes, and it's a real place! I googled - it probably shouldn't really have the S on the end.

vita

08-10-20, 16:29

If its any help Gorse Stacks, Flookersbrook & Brook St are all within a few hundred yards
of each other.

vita

08-10-20, 16:35

Yes, and it's a real place! I googled - it probably shouldn't really have the S on the end.

You're right Merry - no S! Doesn't seem that odd to me but suppose I'm just used it. Very pleasing to say, though.
My vets was there, plus my cat Charlotte came from a family a few doors down from the surgery in the 70s.