George Gibbs b. Hungerford lived in Marlborough

[southukgibbs]

Hello everyone,
I have been researching the Gibbs line for a number of years, however I have been stuck for a while.

My 4x Great grandfather was George Gibbs b. Hungerford in 1809.

I have found his details on the 1841,1851,1861,1871,1881 census'. He lived with his family at 42 High street Marlborough(I have visited the property as it is still there). He is listed on the census' and his children’s wedding certificates as being a Tailor.

Unfortunately I have been unable to find any birth record for George, or any means of finding out what his parents names are which is stopping me from furthering my research.

I have contacted the various Tailor guilds but they were unable to find any record of him.

I have found a George Gibbs born in Lambourne which is very close to Hungerford, however this George was born in 1816. A friend who is a researcher suggested maybe it could be this George and he lied about his age (6 years different) otherwise Mary wouldn't have been interested in him and married him. It seems probable, however there is no concrete evidence and its just a speculation that doesn't sit 100% with me.

I was wondering if anyone has any ideas?

I understand other peoples brick walls are not always very interesting! however I'd appreciate any ideas!

Thanks

[ElizabethHerts]

How old was he on the censuses?

My Alexander line were from Wiltshire and my 3x-great-grandfather was born in Lambourn, Berkshire. The family came from Avebury and his family was prison governor at Marlborough.


I have had great difficulty finding Berkshire records. My 3x-great-grandmother Martha Franklin was born near Newbury c. 1793 but I haven't been able to find her parents.
I'm sure they aren't all transcribed.

[kiterunner]

Other people's brick walls are what keep us going on here! :d

George Gibbs married Mary Harris 13 Dec 1832 at Hungerford. Have you seen the parish register entry for this marriage, and if so, does it say anything about him being a minor, and are the witnesses' names any help? If you haven't seen the PR entry then it might be a help to get a copy.

Sometimes when a couple had an age gap, especially if the man was younger, they would "adjust" their ages to be closer to each other, even if they put the true ages on the marriage certificate, so it wouldn't necessarily be that he lied to his wife about his age even if he was the one born 1816. Also, does the 1816 baptism show date of birth, or could it be that the Lambourne George was born a few years earlier and not baptised as a baby?

[Phoenix]

Might this be the younger George:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8860/images/SRYHO107_1580_1580-0140?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Leb22446&_phstart=successSource&pId=985844


He's a carter, born Lambourn, living in Dulwich in 1851 with his family.

[kiterunner]

Here is a site which has a transcription of the marriage record:
https://www.hungerfordvirtualmuseum.co.uk/images/phocagallery/HHA_Archives/Marriages%201732-1869%20Sorted%20by%20Groom.xls.pdf

Witnesses' names William Batt, Ann Smith, Susan Harris.

[kiterunner]

Looking at FamilySearch, there were a few Gibbs couples having children baptised at Hungerford around the right time: John and Ann, William and Mary, Thomas and Mary. Though of course no George baptism on there.

[kiterunner]

Yes, it looks as though you might need to visit Berkshire Archives or Wiltshire Archives as there isn't much online for Hungerford. Probably not the best time for a visit right now, though. Or there are various CD-ROMs etc available to buy.

[Phoenix]

Worth looking here: https://berksfhs.org/


I know Berkshire has a very energetic family history society.

[Merry]

Looking at FamilySearch, there were a few Gibbs couples having children baptised at Hungerford around the right time: John and Ann, William and Mary, Thomas and Mary. Though of course no George baptism on there.

John and Ann had a son named William, bap in 1807. He remained in Hungerford (on the census through to 1881 and died in 1885) and his occ was also tailor.

Name: William Gibbs
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 24 May 1807
Baptism Place: Hungerford,Berkshire,England
Death Date: 28 Feb 1808 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<EDIT you will see I didn't notice this burial detail, but Phoenix pointed it out in a later post!
Father: John Gibbs
Mother: Ann

Wlliam married in 1832 in Hungerford, a few weeks before George married Mary Harris. Here's the transcript of the marriage entry from the same site kiterunner mentioned in post #5:

22-Oct-1832 William Gibbs Hungerford m Mary Smith Hungerford Banns Witnesses, John Bird, Mary Harris and Jane Smith

So, is Mary Harris, the witness, the same Mary who would mary George Gibbs in a few weeks?!! Might George and William be brothers? (Jane Smith is probably a sister of the bride as there is a Jane Smith living with William and Mary Gibbs on one of the census returns and she is described as sister-in-law to William.)

Also there's an Ann Smith as a witness to the marriage of Mary Harris and George Gibbs (post #5 above) who could be something to do with Mary Smith's family.

[Phoenix]

Er, you show that William as dying in 1808?

[Merry]

Haha !! That's what comes of copy/paste - I didn't even read it past the baptism detail.

Have to think again then - however it's still pretty possible that George and William were brothers.

[Phoenix]

They are probably cousins of that William (and also young George)

[Merry]

Yep, very likely.

[southukgibbs]

Thanks for all of your replies.

I will have a read over all of your comments and get back to you,
Really appreciate you all taking the time to look,

:)

[southukgibbs]

I was working on this spreadsheet last year trying to group the Gibbs families in Hungerford. I have the initial 11 families that I could find, I should imagine that the ones that were mentioned by someone in this post should fit in there somewhere. I will get back to you all as it's a lot to take in!

Here is the spreadsheet incase anyone is interested. It took hours.!

https://gofile.io/d/ov6fPY

[Merry]

Frustrating:

Devizes and Wiltshire Gazette 03 February 1825

The shop of Mr. Gibbs, draper and tailor of Hungerford, was broken into during the night of Friday last, and robbed of 2 pieces of woollen cord, some ready-made clothes and other articles. On the following day, a man named Hughes was detected offering some of the goods to a pawnbroker at Newbury. He was apprehended and committed for examination.

This could perhaps be the father or uncle of George Gibbs, but his first name is not included!

lol and this I found another very more detailed report about the same incident:

Berkshire Chronicle 19 February 1825

The article includes a list of stolen goods and an offer of a reward of one guinnea for information.

And whilst I haven't the energy to type it all out with two fingers, Mr Gibbs has a first name in this article and it's John! *sigh* lol

[Merry]

I've not looked at that spreadsheet yet!

Just to finish the tale about the burglary of John Gibbs' shop...

here:

Hampshire Telegraph 14 March 1825

Richard Hughes is convicted of the theft and it is mentioned he had been sentenced to hang four years earlier, but had been pardoned!

[southukgibbs]

Might this be the younger George:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8860/images/SRYHO107_1580_1580-0140?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Leb22446&_phstart=successSource&pId=985844


He's a carter, born Lambourn, living in Dulwich in 1851 with his family.

Hi,
Yes, there were 2 George's born in Lambourn around the same time, they were cousins. One moved to london (born 1815) and had a family (the one you refered to) and the other George I found no further records/census for, another reason it made it possible that it could be my George with a different age..
I did a tree for them both here:

https://ibb.co/kcgzXxK

https://ibb.co/kcgzXxK

[Phoenix]

I think you really need (as soon as they are open) to get to a record office and see original images. There is so much they can tell you that transcriptions, however good, omit.
Your George, for example, as a tradesman could probably write, so you might be able to compare examples of his signature. There may be entries that every transcriber has made a hash of, but you can read. Or dates could be wrong. Wills, particularly maiden aunts, might mention him. Or copies of leases. If other familymembers fell on hard times, poor law records might provide details of families. If he was a tradesman, his family may have been nonconformist and his baptism may not have been recorded as Hungerford but wherever the minister was.

[southukgibbs]

John and Ann had a son named William, bap in 1807. He remained in Hungerford (on the census through to 1881 and died in 1885) and his occ was also tailor.

Name: William Gibbs
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 24 May 1807
Baptism Place: Hungerford,Berkshire,England
Death Date: 28 Feb 1808 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<EDIT you will see I didn't notice this burial detail, but Phoenix pointed it out in a later post!
Father: John Gibbs
Mother: Ann

William married in 1832 in Hungerford, a few weeks before George married Mary Harris. Here's the transcript of the marriage entry from the same site kiterunner mentioned in post #5:

22-Oct-1832 William Gibbs Hungerford m Mary Smith Hungerford Banns Witnesses, John Bird, Mary Harris and Jane Smith

So, is Mary Harris, the witness, the same Mary who would mary George Gibbs in a few weeks?!! Might George and William be brothers? (Jane Smith is probably a sister of the bride as there is a Jane Smith living with William and Mary Gibbs on one of the census returns and she is described as sister-in-law to William.)

Also there's an Ann Smith as a witness to the marriage of Mary Harris and George Gibbs (post #5 above) who could be something to do with Mary Smith's family.

Hi, You were spot on with this I think. And hello to everyone else,

Basically, after taking a break and then coming back and looking at it again. The first thing that stood out was Mary Harris (Georges wife) being listed on William Gibbs' marriage certificate. I'm pretty confident that William Gibbs b abt 1807 in Hungerford is Georges Brother. That is a different William to the one mentioned above that died in 1808. This William died in 1885. He is listed in the 1841,51,61,71 and 81 census and was also a tailor, the same as George, another reason I believe that they are most likely brothers. William lived in Hungerford for his whole life by the looks of it, had one Son who went on to be a Tailor and he had no children as far as I could see.

So where does this leave me...

George Gibbs b.1809 Hungerford d.1888 Marlborough
William Gibbs b.1807 Hungerford d.1885 Hungerford

I found this from
https://www.hungerfordvirtualmuseum.co.uk/?view=article&amp;id=430&amp;catid=23

From Trade Directories (addresses not yet known):
1830 Pigot Dir:
Joseph Read, saddler and harness maker, Charnham Street.
Thomas Attlee, shopkeeper, Charnham Street.
John Osmond, shopkeeper, Charnham Street.
Mary Poore, shopkeeper, Charnham Street.
John Gibbs, tailor, Charnham Street. William and Georges father? He's also a tailor..this is the John Gibbs that you linked the newspaper articles to
William Anning, tanner, Charnham Street.

1841 census: (This census appears to be in "random" order in parts:)
James Jupp (30), tamper, wife Mary (30), 1 son, 5 daughters
Thomas Sprules (58), pianoforte maker, wife Marha (50).
William Burtt (50) innkeeper (at The Bear) etc
George Fisher (45), postboy
Harriett Moulding (50), inn keeper (The White Hart) etc
William Toms (25), tanner and ?brewer?, wife Joanna (25), 1 son, 2 daughters, 1 lodger, 5 servants.
John Adnams (25), buildre, wife Elizabeth (25), 1 son, 1 daughter.
Mary Smith (25), 1 sister, 1 servant, 1 lodger.
John Dredge (40), auctioneer, wife Sophia (36), 1 son, 1 servant.
William Gibbs (30), tailor, wife Mary (30), 1 son. (Georges Brother)
Sophia Faulknor (71), independent, 1 servant.
John Osmond (50), pork butcher, wife Sarah (50), 1 daughter
Richard Gibbons (50), iron founder, wife Mary (55), 3 sons, 3 daughters.
Francis Gaiger (50), inn keeper (The Red Lion), qv.
Ann Clerk (50), 2 sons, 1 daughter, 2 lodgers (one with 5 children!)
The Lodging House: John Gibbs (55), wife Ann, 21 lodgers. Coincidence that a Gibbs who is the right age to be his father is just a few lines down in the census from him? Could this be William and Georges parents? However he isn't listed as a tailor here, seems to run a lodging house, so im unsure if its the same John Gibbs listed in the 1930 one above.
Thomas Toe (40), publican (The Lamb), wife Jane (40), 1 daughter, 1 sister, 1 servant, 6 lodgers

This has given me something to work with. Although still struggling to find anything else...for now ;( maybe i need a 3 year break again :D

[southukgibbs]

Frustrating:

Devizes and Wiltshire Gazette 03 February 1825

The shop of Mr. Gibbs, draper and tailor of Hungerford, was broken into during the night of Friday last, and robbed of 2 pieces of woollen cord, some ready-made clothes and other articles. On the following day, a man named Hughes was detected offering some of the goods to a pawnbroker at Newbury. He was apprehended and committed for examination.

This could perhaps be the father or uncle of George Gibbs, but his first name is not included!

lol and this I found another very more detailed report about the same incident:

Berkshire Chronicle 19 February 1825

The article includes a list of stolen goods and an offer of a reward of one guinnea for information.

And whilst I haven't the energy to type it all out with two fingers, Mr Gibbs has a first name in this article and it's John! *sigh* lol

This could be their dad..very interesting. I wonder how many tailor shops there were in Hungerford in 1825..

[kiterunner]

But it was said earlier in the thread that the William who was born in 1807, son of John, was the one who died in 1808. Or are there two Johns having children at the same time?

[kiterunner]

If you can't get to the archives to look at the Hungerford parish registers, they are also available to view on FamilySearch but you have to go to a FamilySearch Centre or affiliated library to access them.

[southukgibbs]

But it was said earlier in the thread that the William who was born in 1807, son of John, was the one who died in 1808. Or are there two Johns having children at the same time?

I am not sure regarding Georges and Williams fathers name. The William born in 1807 who died a year later is not the William that I am looking at as the William that seems to be Georges brother got married 24 years later.

The marriage document states:
Married on 22.10.1832 William Gibbs b.Hungerford, Mary Smith b.Hungerford. Witnesses John Bird,*Mary harris (Georges Wife)*Jane Smith (Mary's sister)

The fact that Mary harris and Jane smith are listed as witnesses pretty much seals the deal for me that this is Georges brother. Along with the fact that he was also born in Hungerford, was a tailor (like George) and also doesn't have baptism record.

In regards to John, I'm not sure. I guess all i have to go with at this point is there was a John Gibbs living close by at the same time to William, potentially down the road, who was also a tailor. However in the 1851 census there were 54 tailors in Hungerford, so they wernt short of them! According to Hungerford virtual museum 'Tanning at one time was a flourishing Berkshire industry, largely due to natural supply of oak trees. At Hungerford the tanning business was of sufficient importance for the Hocktide Court to appoint "searchers and seekers" annually. The "searchers and seekers" were official snoops whose duty it was to see that none but properly 'tanned leather appeared for sale.'

I was in contact with Berkshire record office back in 2020 and they did a search for me, for a fee, which showed no results. From a search it seems that they hold the parish records

[kiterunner]

Yes, I realise that your William is not the one who died in 1808. I was just trying to point out that that William's father was called John.

[southukgibbs]

Yes, I realise that your William is not the one who died in 1808. I was just trying to point out that that William's father was called John.

Thanks, yes you're right. I guess thinking about it, even if my William was born say just under a year later from John and Ann they probably wouldn't have named him William again after their first child died so young, or was that something that was done. If not then, yes, i guess it helps me narrow it down a bit, as doubtful that there were 2 john and Anns, something I'll look at

[Olde Crone]

It was very common in my family at least, to name the next child after the one who had died. I read somewhere that it was a superstition, to fool the devil, who would think he had already taken that child.

OC

[Phoenix]

Of William Brown and Elizabeth Bullock's fifteen children, two were called Daniel, two called Elizabeth and SIX called William.

While it is very rare to have two living children with the same name, it's quite common to try for a surviving child with a family name.

[Merry]

One of my families had 14 children - ten survived to adulthood. The four that didn't were all called Thomas (after their father). Two of those were baptised within a few weeks of the death of an earlier Thomas. You would think by the time you had named three babies Thomas and they had all died whilst the rest of your children were survivors, you might give up on the name for your very last child? They didn't though and he died aged 4.

[Merry]

I've got two brothers on my tree both registered as Frederick between 1901 and 1911. I spent ages looking for a death of the first one until the 1911 census was released and showed they were both still living and neither was called Frederick by that date!

[ElizabethHerts]

One of my families had 14 children - ten survived to adulthood. The four that didn't were all called Thomas (after their father). Two of those were baptised within a few weeks of the death of an earlier Thomas. You would think by the time you had named three babies Thomas and they had all died whilst the rest of your children were survivors, you might give up on the name for your very last child? They didn't though and he died aged 4.

My Wood ancestors had three sons called Edward. They all died in infancy.

[kiterunner]

It would be perfectly usual for another son to be named William after the previous William died, but the censuses etc say that your William was born about 1806-7 and he would have to be born in 1808 or later if he was a son of John and Ann's (Unless of course there were two John and Ann couples). Of course his age could be wrong everywhere.

[southukgibbs]

It would be perfectly usual for another son to be named William after the previous William died, but the censuses etc say that your William was born about 1806-7 and he would have to be born in 1808 or later if he was a son of John and Ann's (Unless of course there were two John and Ann couples). Of course his age could be wrong everywhere.

Yes you're right. The age gap would be too close for it to be possible.
I've been in contact with Berkshire records office and a lady is going to do a search for me. I let you know if she comes back with anything,