View Full Version : Robinson Family going forwards from 1871 ormskirk
Hi to all , I do hope you are all keeping well and coping with the current situation . ???? I am looking to trace some of my family tree Of the robinsons from Ormskirk . I have researched their past with help from you all , but haven't gone forwards with the search for the sons going forwards . -: John Robinson Born approx 1858 Ormskirk .father james robinson tailor , mother Jane Robinson , James robinson born approx 1853 Ormskirk , Richard Robinson born approx 1863 Ormskirk . I Am looking for marriages of these people to see where they settled and had their family's . any help would be gratefully received . I would normally access ancestry at my library . but it still isn't open . thanks all
ROBINSON, JAMES mmn HALE
GRO Reference: 1851 S Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 21 Page 644
ROBINSON, JOHN mmn HALE
GRO Reference: 1858 J Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 551
ROBINSON, RICHARD mmn HALE
GRO Reference: 1862 S Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 616
Things to note:
There are not all the children of James and Jane (I only searched 1851-1865, whch revealed the above, plus two more, but there may be others outside this time frame).
Jane Robinson's name was Hale not Robinson.
This could be the death of James:
James Robinson
abt 1852 Oct-Nov-Dec 1873 Ormskirk Lancashire
given there isn't an obvious match for him after 1871 on the census (when he was stil single - no marriages in Ormskirk district for a James R between then and the death). His burial was 15 Dec 1873 (age mistranscribed) but the address only says Ormskirk.
I don't have time to look for the other two now.
I see you already have threads about Jane Hale. Can you give me her death details please.
kiterunner
22-09-20, 09:25
I would normally access ancestry at my library . but it still isn't open . thanks all
Lancashire County Council's website says that they are currently providing access to the Lancashire Archives stuff on Ancestry at home to their members:
https://www.lancashire.gov.uk/libraries-and-archives/libraries/your-library-at-home/
(scroll down to the "Family and local history" section.)
hi Kiterunner. thanks for your help, i will try and look for janes death , as i didn't do that ,when i was researching the hales and robinsons before . thanks
This could be James Robinson senior's death:
Deaths Sep 1871
Robinson James 46 Ormskirk 8b 545
and burial:
James Robinson
b abt 1825 bur 18 Jul 1871 Ormskirk (address just says Ormskirk)
Which one of the Robinson children is your ancestor?
In 1871 Richard (b 1862) is with his parents.
In 1881 there is a Richard b Ormskirk, collier living as a boarder in Skelmersdale. As in 1871 your Richard was the only one that said b Ormskirk and there is only the one Richard Robinson b Ormskirk on the 1881 census too, I thought this was probably your Richard. However in 1891 (where there is also only the one Richard R born Ormskirk of the right age, again a collier) this Richard is with his mother and she doesn't fit well with being your Jane as she is Sarah J Robinson, a bit younger than your Jane and says born Scarisbrick not Ormskirk (I realise that's not far away). The problem is, I can't find this Richard with mother Sarah in 1871 so can't eliminate him.
As for John Robinson b 1858, there are no obvious matches in 1881 and there is this death:
Deaths Mar 1876
Robinson John 17 Ormskirk 8b 618
and burial:
John Robinson
b abt 1858 bur 25 Mar 1875 (mistranscribed, should read 1876) Ormskirk (Address Ormskirk)
I think nancy Robinson is nancy( ann ) who married William Grimshaw in 1873 Skelmersdale . they had a daughter ann who married william eccleston in 1884 skelmersdale william eccleston is my grandfather . I never met any of them .so i was trying to look forwards on the robinson side to see if there was any family of there's either in Ormskirk or surrounding area who survived into the 1900s
I'm a bit worried that you say Nancy/Ann married in 1873 and she had a daughter who married only 11 years later!
Oh, I wish you had told us that at the beginning.
Richard Robinson is their boarder in 1881. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: I presume you must have know that already!!!!
So, did Jane Hale change her name, age and birthplace in 1891 or are their two Richard Robinsons?
So, this is probably the death of the lady from the 1891 census.
Deaths Mar 1896
Robinson Sarah Jane 65 Ormskirk 8b 566
Sarah Jane Robinson
b abt 1831 bur 29 Feb 1896 Ormskirk (Address Skelmersdale)
There is also a death of a Richard Robinson who could be the one listed as her son in 1891:
Deaths Jun 1891
ROBINSON Richard 27 Ormskirk 8b 755
burial:
Richard Robinson
b abt 1864 bur 23 Jun 1891 Skelmersdale (address just says Skelmersdale)
The question is, are these yours or not? It's a case of neither or both! Sarah Jane's death cert might reveal the name of her late husband.
Jane robinson Nee Hale is richard robinsons mother . father James Hale
The census 1881 , has richard as a boarder In Sandy Lane Skelmersdale with The Grimshaws , Ann being his sister .
Yes, that's right, there is no issue with Richard on the 1881 census.
The question is, does Jane change her forename, age and place of birth for the 1891 census? She seems to be with the same Richard Robinson who is Jane's son.
If they are the same person then we know what happened to Jane and her son Richard, but if they are not the same person then we don't.
Here's the family search version of that mystery 1891 census:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:77T1-T3Z
hi ,i must admit ,i hadn't seen the name Sarah , before i find it strange she's just started using Sarah instead of Jane . but it isn't to say it isn't the right person that's the mystery .
Hi. what month of the year was the census for 1891 ? as the death of richard you have mentioned is in June .
Like you said i may have to get the death certificate to see who her husband was .
You could possibly solve the mystery by getting Sarah Jane Robinson's death cert, as it should give the name of her late husband. EDIT snap!!
I've just searched for a Sarah Robinson b Scarisbrick about 1829+/-5 on the census records before 1891 and there are none.
If I use keyword Skelmersdale instead of Scarisbrick there are still none. If I switch to Ormskirk there are three, but none of them look like an obvious fit with the Sarah J on the 1891 census.
Hi. what month of the year was the census for 1891 ? as the death of richard you have mentioned is in June .
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showpost.php?p=701&postcount=1
The night of Sunday 5th April.
Jane Robinson nee hale was born around 1824 /25 . the sarah jane you have mentioned birth around 1831
Jane Robinson nee hale was born around 1824 /25 . the sarah jane you have mentioned birth around 1831
Yes, that's what I keep saying too.
hi sorry that's wrong i've got my wires crossed lol
hi sorry that's wrong i've got my wires crossed lol
No you haven't!
I hadn't really taken in the fact that if James Robinson senr died in 1871 and we only have this Sarah J Robinson in 1891, where is Sarah/Jane in 1881?
Be they one person or two, one of them at least should be on the 1881 census! I have looked, for this person/persons in 1881, with no luck at all.
Just looking to see if the newspapers reveal anything:
Preston Chronicle 22 July 1871
On the 15th inst., at Ormskirk, Mr. James Robinson, aged 46 years.
I don't see anything for any of the others.
hi thanks for your help ,i'll look again tomorrow,i'm househunting today . have a good weekend
hi merry , I was trying to find the birth of James robinson from these post but was put off by him having such a common name . but i though I would check the Bolton St. peter's OLPR this morning . And there wasn't a lot of robinson births in 1825 . but found a james robinson father richard mother Nancy , 22nd of may . It may be a long shot . i don't think we ever saw his fathers name . as the marriage to jane Hale was at our lady and st nicholas in liverpool and the records are not online after a certain date . The only link is he named his son Richard . what's your thoughts ?
it does say great bolton , on a previous thread were james was born and st. peter's comes under Great Bolton .
Luckily, rather than reading this thread back and getting to grips with who these people are, I just did a Search (the button just under Private Messages, top right) for Robinson Hale marriage and that gave me this post:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showpost.php?p=348498&postcount=12
So, you already had the details for Jane from the marriage entry image.
The groom's details are:
James Robinson, full, bachelor, tailor, Rose Hill, Richard Robinson, joiner.
sorry merry i'm not very good , i haven't a subscription for ancestry so coundnt check that . . i can't find that old post as i knew there was one mentioning the marriage .when i check messages and old posts it only comes up with the last ten posts and i can't see any old messages and i know i haven't deleted any ? But the birth record could be him so that's a plus . also on the birth reg it's states father cabinet maker which is a joiner .so that's a plus . thanks merry
sorry merry i'm not very good , i haven't a subscription for ancestry so coundnt check that .
I know you don't have a sub!
i can't find that old post as i knew there was one mentioning the marriage .
You just need to use the search box. Only include words you know must be in the post you are looking for and no words four letters or less.
when i check messages and old posts it only comes up with the last ten posts and i can't see any old messages and i know i haven't deleted any ?
When I click your name and then the third option, Find all posts by Qwackers, I'm shown your last 500 posts (perhaps you are only looking at the first page of results when you say 10 posts?). However it's not you who would be posting the marriage details anyway, but whoever was helping you. You need to use the search facility to find other people's posts more quickly.
thanks merry i'll have a look again
I can't seem to get all my private messages up it says i've got 25 but only shows 11 i've tried changing the dates to see if they will come up but no that doesn't work ..?
Private messages are those you send and receive between you and other individual members of the forum. They are not the posts on the message boards.
If you want to see your own message board posts, click your name and under that (3rd option), click 'Find all posts by Qwackers'. This will show you your last 500 posts. If you want something before that you will have to use the search box at the top right. I would use search anyway - very often it wouldn't be your own post you need.
And as for your number of Private messages - Is 25 the total number and 11 the number in your Inbox? You need to switch to Sent Items to see the others (where it says Jump to Folder).
thanks merry will do , Couldi ask you a favour as you know i haven't got a sub for ancestry . and i have been having a look for a marriage for richard robinson and a nancy , james robinsons parents . have looked at a lot of the Bolton OLPC abut as yet haven't found them . obviously they may not have been married in Bolton . i did a search on ancestry . again it doesn't show me all the texts but there was about three marriages around the 1816/1825 mark with A nancy , Flitcroft , hargreaves , and guy , there may be more but i can't see them . if you get the chance could you check for me . as i have also so tried FS but it comes up with the wrong things each time . ? thanks
You shouldn't be looking for a marriage until you know more about the other children of Richard and Nancy.
Use Lanc OPC to see what baptisms you can find. Then you will have a better idea of what timeframe they may have married.
hi merry , yes i know but if james was born in 1825 ,any other children before will not be on lancs bmd as the transcripts only begin in 1837!, but i will check for more births .
I said Lancs OPC not Lancs BMD and if that wasn't clear enough, I also said baptisms not births.
https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/
i'm sorry merry i told you i was partially blind .
Yes, and I am sorry about that.
Did you find any siblings for James?
I have just got back from an errand and am looking now . i have found one in 1819 7 th feb at st. peter's Bolton so i will carring in looking . there is quite a few Robinsons ,so it should keep me occupied lol
Can't you just enter the names of the parents and maybe 20 years either way from 1825 and do it in one search? Should take about 20 seconds.
From this search page:
https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
Click this>> You may click here to begin searching the whole county.
Surname Robinson
Father Richard
Mother Nancy
Baptisms
Whole County
Year 1825
Range + or - 20 years
Then just choose the entries you think are the same family.
I get 8 matches, 6 of which are more likely to be yours because of the father's occupation.
hi merry it's taking me ages to go through the baptisms as my ipad is just too old each time i check a name i have to go back to the church page and then get back to baptisms . I don't think there a quicker way ?
What I said in my post just before yours!
Does my link to the search page for Lancs OPC work for you? (post #47)
your a star as usual ,i have never used that before .
thanks so much i found them 6 in all and simple when you know how .
Baptism: 7 Mar 1813 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Ellen Robinson - Daughter of Richard Robinson & Nancy
Abode: Great Bolton
Occupation: Joiner
Baptised by: Thos. Brocklebank, Curate
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1815, Page 17, Entry 136
Source: LDS Family Search
Baptism: 16 Oct 1814 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
John Robinson - Son of Richard Robinson & Nancy
Abode: Great Bolton
Occupation: Joiner
Baptised by: Thos. Brocklebank, Curate
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1815, Page 208, Entry 1663
Source: LDS Family Search
Baptism: 12 Jan 1817 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Hannah Robinson - Daughter of Richard Robinson & Nancy
Abode: Great Bolton
Occupation: Joiner
Baptised by: Thos Brocklebank Curate
Register: Baptisms 1815 - 1817, Page 194, Entry 1551
Source: LDS Family Search
Baptism: 7 Feb 1819 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Mary Ann Robinson - Daughter of Richard Robinson & Nancy
Abode: Great Bolton
Occupation: Cabinet Maker
Baptised by: Rt. Caunce Curate
Register: Baptisms 1817 - 1820, Page 142, Entry 1134
Source: LDS Family Search
Baptism: 3 Nov 1822 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Nancy Robinson - Daughter of Richard Robinson & Nancy
Abode: Great Bolton
Occupation: Cabinet Maker
Baptised by: H Richardson Lecturer
Register: Baptisms 1822 - 1824, Page 72, Entry 574
Source: LDS Family Search
Baptism: 22 May 1825 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
James Robinson - Son of Richard Robinson & Nancy
Abode: Great Bolton
Occupation: Cabinet Maker
Baptised by: J. Slade Vicar
Register: Baptisms 1824 - 1826, Page 178, Entry 1421
Source: LDS Family Search
I've used the same for search for a marriage . there are only three which are viable , that's if richards spouse is nancy ,as you have said before it could be a name she used and not necessarily the right one , although on the births it says mother nancy . they are :-
Marriage: 1 Dec 1806 St Leonard, Padiham, Lancashire, England
Richard Robinson - (X), this Chapelry
Nancy Hargreaves - (X), this Chapelry
Witness: Henry Robinson; Charlotte Adamson
Married by Banns by: J. Adamson, Incumbent
Register: Marriages 1778 - 1812, Page 98, Entry 38
Source: Original Parish Register
Marriage: 21 Sep 1812 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Richard Robinson - (X), This Parish
Nancy Guy - (X), This Parish
Witness: Francis Bradshaw; Thomas Hindley
Banns Read: 16 Aug 1812, 2nd: 23 Aug 1812, 3rd: 30 Aug 1812
Married by Banns by: Jonathan Topping Curate
Register: Marriages 1802 - 1812, Page 352, Entry 783
Source: LDS Film 1562958
Marriage: 11 Jan 1813 St Mary the Virgin, Prestwich, Lancashire, England
Richard Robinson - this Parish
Nancy Flitcroft - (X), this Parish
Witness: John Morris; Edw. Redford
Married by Banns by: Jno. Fallowfield
Register: Marriages 1809 - 1819, Page 158, Entry 787
Source: LDS Film 2356185
Now if it's one of these how to get the right one ? any ideas .
by the way it's a lot easier doing the way you told me instead of trawling through all the records so a big thank you .
I've just added some spaces to your posts so it's easier to see where one entry ends and the next begins!
With regards to the first marriage, I think these two baptisms belong to that couple and helpfully the father's occupation is included:
Baptism: 25 Jun 1809 St Leonard, Padiham, Lancashire, England
William Robinson - Son of Richard Robinson & Nancy
Born: 9 Jan 1807
Abode: Padiham
Occupation: Weaver
Register: Baptisms 1803 - 1812, Entry 65
Source: Original Parish Register
Baptism: 25 Jun 1809 St Leonard, Padiham, Lancashire, England
John Robinson - Son of Richard Robinson & Nancy
Born: 9 May 1809
Abode: Padiham
Occupation: Weaver
Register: Baptisms 1803 - 1812, Entry 66
Source: Original Parish Register
It's a pity there are not more baptisms, overlaping in date with the ones at Bolton, so it could be easier to say they are 100% not the same couple, but a weaver would not normally suddenly become a joiner and especially as we know later it says cabinet maker for your Richard, so presumably a properly trained (apprenticed?) woodworker.
So, I think the first marriage of the three is eliminated.
The other two are more tricky.
From 1812 onward there really only seems to be your Richard and Nancy having children baptised in Lancashire, where we might prefer to see two sets and work out which set belongs to which couple.
Most websites that offer variables on first names include variants of Ann for Nancy, but Lancs OPC doesn't so you should also search Richard and Ann to see if anything else comes up. Searching for baptisms for Richard and Ann doesn't give any more at Bolton or Padiham or any at Warrington or Prestwich.
I also looked at marriages of Richard and Ann, but there were none that looked anywhere near as likely as the two Richard and Nancy marriages we already have.
With regard to your Richard's occupation, there is this on Ancestry:
UK, Register of Duties Paid for Apprentices' Indentures, 1710-1811
Monday 30th March 1801
Master, Joshua Marsden, Standish, Co of Lancaster, joiner etc, apprentice Ricd Robinson
The date generally marks the start of a seven year apprenticeship and the apprentice would normally be aged about 14 (not younger). So, I think it's pretty likely this is your Richard and he would most likely have been born about 1787ish. Of course having an apprenticeship at Standish doesn't particularly help with where he might have married (Warrington or Prestwich - and it's quite possible neither of those are the right marriage!), so we need more information or some way to eliminate one of the marriages.
If you were thinking the Prestwich marriage is a bit close to the first baptism date, I noticed that too, but I don't think we can exclude that marriage because of the dates. If anything, it may make that marriage the more likely one!!
I wondered about what happened to Richard and Nancy.
As you said, the name Robinson is pretty common!
I think we already know that your Jamesb 1825 wasn't with his parents on any census, so we need to see if any of the other children were.
First we need to see if any of the children were buried young, to eliminate them from appearing on a census:
Burial: 19 Mar 1824 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Nancy Robinson - Daughter of Richd. Robinson
Age: 1 year
Abode: Great Bolton
Buried by: Lowther Grisdale, Offg. Minister
Register: Burials 1823 - 1826, Page 90, Entry 716
Source: LDS Film 1966470
So, that leaves us with
Ellen 1813
John 1814
Hannah 1817
Mary Ann 1819
(James 1825 who we have already covered)
to look for. Normally I would look for the youngest, but none would be that young in 1841 so I looked for younger, but less commonly named, Hannah.
This looked very promising - correct name and occ for father and Ormskirk where your James lived.:
Marriage: 7 Feb 1842 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Thomas Strickland - Full, Miller, Widower, Lathom
Hannah Robinson - Full, Spinster, Ormskirk
Groom's Father: Henry Strickland, Miller
Bride's Father: Richard Robinson, Joiner
Witness: John Robinson; Hannah Nuttall
Married by Licence by: Charles Forshaw
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1846, Page 109, Entry 218
Source: LDS Film 1849665
In 1851 Hannah and her husband are living at Preston, with a stepson for Thomas Strictland called Richard Robinson aged 15 b Bolton. Hannah is aged 34 and born at Bolton, so perfect!
Next to find her in 1841.
1841 Census Ormskirk, Moor Street
Nancy Robinson 50 shopkeeper Yes
Hannah Robinson 20 Yes
Richard Robinson 6 Yes
Hannah (and probably Nancy also) have had their ages rounded down to the nearest 5 years as the census form requested.
Helpfully, Nancy is still alive in 1851:
Ormskirk, Cock Pit Yard, Chapel Lane
Nancy Robinson head widow 63 born Bolton, Lancs
The rest of her household are all lodgers, surnames Leaver, Cowen and Travis.
This is probably Nancy's burial:
Burial: 7 Dec 1853 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Nancy Robinson -
Age: 67
Abode: Ormskirk
Buried by: T. S.Pepper Curate
Register: Burials 1853 - 1869, Page 24, Entry 186
Source: LDS Film 1849649
So from her age here and her age in 1851 we can establish she was probably born about 1786-1788 at Bolton, so she and Richard were probably about the same age.
So, the next question is, is there a baptism for Nancy Guy or Nancy Flitcroft at Bolton about 1787?
Perhaps you could look for Nancy's baptism as you have a better knowledge of towns and villages in Lancashire than I do! You need Bolton or somewhere near there and within a few years of 1787.
I would think this is Richard's death:
Burial: 12 Sep 1833 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Richard Robinson -
Age: 47 yrs
Abode: Ormskirk
Buried by: William Wannop Curate
Register: Burials 1825 - 1843, Page 229, Entry 2044
Source: LDS Film 1849664
There are others (older) in Ormskirk, but this is the only one that fits with the apprenticeship. There are none that fit well in Bolton.
yes that could be him the family could have moved to ormskirk .but i will check all the areas for his baptism .
Baptism: 18 Apr 1786 St Leonard, Padiham, Lancashire, England
Nancy Hargreaves - daughter of Stephen Hargreaves
Abode: PadihamBaptism: 25 Jun 1787 St James, Haslingden, Lancashire, England
Nancy Hargreaves - Daughter of Alice Hargreaves, Single Woman
Abode: Hudhey
Register: Baptisms 1776 - 1796, Page 61
Source: Original Parish Register at Lancashire Archives
Register: Baptisms 1765 - 1790
Source: Original Parish Register those are the ones for nancy hargreaves , one in haslingden which is about 11.6 miles and padiham over 20 miles
nancy flitcroft latest 1884 hindley near wigan .
Baptism: 11 Feb 1787 St Leonard, Padiham, Lancashire, England
Richard Robinson - son of John Robinson
Abode: Padiham
Register: Baptisms 1765 - 1790
Source: Original Parish Register
Baptism: 26 Oct 1787 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Richard Robinson - Son of John Robinson & Susanna
Born: 8 Jul 1787
Abode: Norfolk street
Occupation: Sawyer
Register: Baptisms 1787, Page 174, Entry 893
Source: LDS Film 93833
Baptism: 7 Dec 1884 All Saints, Hindley, Lancashire, England
Nancy Flitcroft - [Child] of Joseph Flitcroft & Elizabeth
Born: 5 Nov 1884
Abode: Victoria Farm, Hindley Green
Occupation: Miner & Farmer
Baptised by: W.Geary Knocker, Vicar
Register: Baptisms 1880 - 1886, Page 143, Entry 1142
Source: LDS Film 93748
Baptism: 27 Apr 1788 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Richard Robinson - Son of Joseph Robinson & Margaret
Born: 6 Apr 1788
Abode: Harrington Street
Occupation: Mariner
Register: Baptisms 1787 - 1792, Page 120, Entry 43
Source: LDS Film 1656377
Baptism: 7 Sep 1788 St Cuthbert, Churchtown, Lancashire, England
Richard Robinson - Son of Jeffery Robinson & Alice
Abode: Crossens
Register: Baptisms 1732 - 1790, Page 116
Source: Original Parish Register
Baptism: 13 Feb 1789 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Richard Robinson - Son of Daniel Robinson & Ellen
Abode: Orms[kirk]
Register: Baptisms 1771 - 1794, Page 89, Entry 5
Source: LDS Film 1849663
the last richard robinson baptism in ormskirk . although it's 1889, churchtown is about four miles from southport and not far from ormskirk .
none in bolton for a nancy or James
none in bolton for a nancy or James
Did you mean Richard, not James? We don't know where Richard was from, so I anticipate his baptism being your brick wall on that line.
Sorry I did mean Richard,
thanks for altour help it's much appreciated.
Baptism: 18 Apr 1786 St Leonard, Padiham, Lancashire, England
Nancy Hargreaves - daughter of Stephen Hargreaves
Abode: PadihamBaptism: 25 Jun 1787 St James, Haslingden, Lancashire, England
Nancy Hargreaves - Daughter of Alice Hargreaves, Single Woman
Abode: Hudhey
Register: Baptisms 1776 - 1796, Page 61
Source: Original Parish Register at Lancashire Archives
Register: Baptisms 1765 - 1790
Source: Original Parish Register those are the ones for nancy hargreaves , one in haslingden which is about 11.6 miles and padiham over 20 miles
Nancy Hargreaves was eliminated in post #58.
yes i'll make a note of that , what would i do without you . lol
Just a thought , could nancy have been married before ? and do we know that richard robinson was born in Bolton . we know nancy was born Bolton according to the census ?
Neither of the remaining two marriages have a record of the condition of the bride or groom. I have seen images of them both (Ancestry for the Prestwich marriage and Family Search for the Warrington one). So yes, either bride could have had a previous marriage and you would hope to see a burial for the husband before the second marriage, but I've not found anything to fit that scenario.
There are a lot of trees on Ancestry which all have the Warrington marriage for your couple, but I see no reason to choose this marriage over the other one.
I've looked at the marriage witnesses but not learned anything to connect them with any of the surnames we are looking at. I noted that the Richard who married at Prestwich could sign his name whilst the other Richard didn't, but I don't think that helps much.
I was surprised you didn't come up with this baptism (Lancs OPC):
Baptism: 23 Dec 1787 St Mary the Virgin, Prestwich, Lancashire, England
Ann Allen - Daughter of Seth Flitcroft & Hannah Allen
Abode: Outwood
Register: Baptisms 1769 - 1790, Page 96
Source: LDS Film 2356182
Perhaps the fact that the child appeared to be illegitimate put you off?
The image of the entry reads slightly differently:
23 Dec 1787 Ann Flitcroft dau of Hannah Allen of Outwood by Seth Flitcroft.
but still looks like an illegitimate birth.
You might think the name Seth Flitcroft would be uncommon, but there's a continuous smattering of them all through the Lancs records especially around Bolton.
I did find this marriage:
Marriage: 18 Oct 1775 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Seth Flitcroft - Weaver, This Parish [Bolton]
Ann Allen - Spinster, This Parish [Bolton]
Witness: John Bell; Jas. Livesey
Married by Banns by: J. Folds
Notes: [Bride signed Hannah Allen]
Register: Marriages 1774 - 1784, Page 50, Entry 188
Source: LDS Family Search
So, Ann signs Hannah and then later a Seth has a child with (another?) unmarried Hannah Allen?? All seems very strange! May be two different Seths, or the same one, too - who knows?!
In answer to your Q, Nancy said she was born in Bolton on the 1851 census and we have no idea where Richard came from.
There's also this sort of thing to contend with:
One of the numerous Seth Flitcroft was buried at Bolton 21 Mar 1798. Nothing much in the way of information on the burial record.
He seems to have written a will:
First name(s) Seth
Archive Lancashire Archives
Last name Flitcroft
Archive reference 569A/63
Year 1798
Source Lancashire Archives Probate Index Archdeaconry of Chester (supra wills 1700-1799)
Date 1 Nov 1798
Document ordering link https://lccsecure.lancashire.gov.uk/corporate/questionnaires/runQuestionnaire.asp?qid=576248
Occupation Yeoman
Record set Lancashire Wills & Probate 1457-1858
Place Bolton in the Moors
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Archdeaconry Chester
Subcategory Wills & Probate
County Lancashire
Collections from England, Great Britain
Country England
and then there is this notice in the paper :D:
Hampshire Chronicle 07 April 1798
In his 78th year, Mr. Seth Flitcroft, of Bolton, the father of thirty children, twenty-five of them by his present widow.
lol who knows if it was the same Seth having a child outside his marriage when in his late 60s?! Probably not, but at least we know one man might take up quite a few of the Bolton baptisms with that name as the father, though I suppose his children may all have been born before the 1780s.
I don't know what this notice is doing in the Hampshire Chronicle, unless it was just copied from another more local paper and printed for interest.
kiterunner
03-05-22, 11:10
Yes, the papers used to print notices of note like that from other areas. I've seen a few about centenarians.
wow. thanks once again , seth father of thirty children wow , i wonder if it's a record lol , i'll try to see what i can find thanks once again .
Olde Crone
03-05-22, 17:03
Ah, caution! I spent a very long time trying to trace 22 children, 78 grandchildren and 104 great grandchildren after reading an article in a local paper. Let's just say, my man didn't have 22 children to start with. Newspapers didn't check in those days.
OC
I know! I don't think Qwackers is connected to this man anyway.
i thought i would check were the other children marriages etc . i found mary ann , she married thomas constantine in 1839 in ormskirk .they had lots of children . but will check to see how many survived . and will look for the other children to see if i can glean anymore info from them .
rMarriage: 15 Jun 1840 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Thomas Sumner - Full, Shoe Maker, Bachelor, Pellew St
Ellen Robinson - Full, Spinster, Rupert St
Groom's Father: Thomas Sumner, Joiner
Bride's Father: Richard Robinson, Cabinet Maker
Witness: Thomas Constantine; Catherine Constantine
Married by Banns by: John Cheetham A M Curate
Register: Marriages 1839 - 1840, Page 217, Entry 433
Source: LDS Film 93290.
The reason why i think it's correct , father fits well with name and occupation I think thomas constantine is her relative from her sisters marriage also
i found ellen and thomas on 1851 census living in Moore st ormskirk with children . Thomas born aughton in 1804 so ten years older than ellen .
Baptism: 19 Sep 1841 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Catherine Constantine - Son [sic] of Thomas Constantine & Mary Ann
Abode: Ormskirk
Occupation: Tailor
Notes: [Register records Catherine as 'Son' of Thomas & Mary Ann Constantine]
Baptised by: John May Curate
Register: Baptisms 1833 - 1844, Page 344, Entry 1069
Source: LDS Film 1849664
Baptism: 2 Jun 1843 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Alice Constantine - [Child] of Thomas Constantine & Mary Ann
Abode: Ormskirk
Occupation: Tailor
Baptised by: Charles Forshaw
Register: Baptisms 1833 - 1844, Page 426, Entry 58
Source: LDS Film 1849664
Baptism: 2 Jun 1843 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Alice Constantine - [Child] of Thomas Constantine & Mary Ann
Abode: Ormskirk
Occupation: Tailor
Baptised by: Charles Forshaw
Register: Baptisms 1833 - 1844, Page 426, Entry 58
Source: LDS Film 1849664
Baptism: 23 Jul 1845 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Mary Ann Constantine - Daughter of Thomas Constantine & Mary
Abode: Ormskirk
Occupation: Tailor
Baptised by: Ed Blenkinsopp, Curate
Register: Baptisms 1844 - 1855, Page 47, Entry 370
Source: LDS Film 1849665
Baptism: 16 May 1847 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Constantine - [Child] of Thomas Constantine & Mary Ann
Abode: Ormskirk
Occupation: Tailor
Baptised by: Ed Blenkinsopp, Curate
Register: Baptisms 1844 - 1855, Page 136, Entry 1082
Source: LDS Film 1849665
Baptism: 16 May 1847 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Constantine - [Child] of Thomas Constantine & Mary Ann
Abode: Ormskirk
Occupation: Tailor
Baptised by: Ed Blenkinsopp, Curate
Register: Baptisms 1844 - 1855, Page 136, Entry 1082
Source: LDS Film 1849665
Elizabeth Constantine - [Child] of Thomas Constantine & Mary Ann
Abode: Ormskirk
Occupation: Tailor
Baptised by: E J Hornby, Vicar
Register: Baptisms 1844 - 1855, Page 233, Entry 1859
Source: LDS Film 1849665
Baptism: 16 Apr 1851 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Richard Constantine - [Child] of Thomas Constantine & Mary Ann
Abode: Ormskirk
Occupation: Taylor
Baptised by: Hutton Rowe, Curate
Register: Baptisms 1844 - 1855, Page 321, Entry 2567
Source: LDS Film 1849665
Baptism: 28 Nov 1852 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Sarah Constantine - [Child] of Thomas Constantine & Mary Ann
Abode: Ormskirk
Occupation: Tailor
Baptised by: Hutton Rowe, Curate
Register: Baptisms 1844 - 1855, Page 372, Entry 2974
Source: LDS Film 1849665
Baptism: 28 Nov 1852 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Sarah Constantine - [Child] of Thomas Constantine & Mary Ann
Abode: Ormskirk
Occupation: Tailor
Baptised by: Hutton Rowe, Curate
Register: Baptisms 1844 - 1855, Page 372, Entry 2974
Source: LDS Film 1849665.
Baptism: 26 Aug 1855 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Thomas Constantine - [Child] of Thomas Constantine & Mary Ann
Abode: Ormskirk
Occupation: Tailor
Baptised by: W Corbet Howard, Curate
Register: Baptisms 1844 - 1855, Page 478, Entry 3817
Source: LDS Film 1849665
i think there are a few more i'll double check , but maybe a few died so will have to check them too.
the first elizabeth 1847 diespd the following year and richard died age five .
I was also wondering , there are two deaths of a richard robinson in ormskirk , the one you posted in 1833 but there was also one for a richard age 59 in 1832 . Could it be possible that richard was older than nancy ? just looking at alternatives .
Remember, he was apprenticed, probably aged 14, in 1801 (see post #62).
oh yes that's correct , thanks for reminding me .
Hi ,merry haven't been successful in all my searches . to try and establish who richard robinson married , with the name nancy . i did notice a tree came up for ancestry for a robinson family with Nancy guys name his birth 1787 . as you know i'm not a member of ancestry so i can't view the tree . i was wondering when you have the time could you look at that one , to see if you can glean anything that may be of interest to me regarding his marriage . I know that sometimes they are not correct , but there maybe a chance to find out a little bit more ? thanks Chrissie
If I enter Richard Robinson born 1787 there are 20 trees matching, many with spouse Nancy Guy (no evidence to support this marriage being the right one). Which one were you looking at? Can you post a link?
i'm sorry merry i can't send a link once I press the link to the name it takes me to the join ancestry page , i went on to search ancestry trees and put in richard robinson ,born 1887 , spouse nancy Guy . and it comes .up with a tree a lot of the others have different spouses and other trees but has a link to this for robinson tree . . It may be of no help , as the tree regarding Nancy Guy , maybe guess work on the tree owners , unless they know more than we do . But you never know ! I searched births for richard all over the place in other countries but richard robinson is quite a common name . so it would be difficult to find him .
i had also wondered if richard had been in the workhouse. and had been given the apprenticeship whilst there . it only a thought . there was a workhouse in standish . ?
Rather than clicking the link to the tree, you need to copy it and paste it here.
i'll see if i can do that ,as my iad browser is a problem and something's just don't work correctly .
i had also wondered if richard had been in the workhouse. and had been given the apprenticeship whilst there . it only a thought . there was a workhouse in standish . ?
Pretty unlikely. Most skilled trade apprenticeships were sponsored by the parents of the apprentice.
Richard Robinson from tree Robinson Family Tree
Record information.
Birth 1787
Marriage xxxx xxxxxxxxxxxLancashire, England
Residence xxxxxxxxxxxLancashire, England
Death xxxx
Record information.
Spouse Nancy Guy (1788-xxxx)
165 People5 Records5 Sources
Ok, I meant copy and paste the link (the bit that starts https://www.ancestry etc), but never mind, I've found that tree now.
It just shows the marriage of John Robinson and Nancy Guy and two of their children (John 1814 and Hannah 1817). No baptism or parents for John senr or Nancy. It has 1853 for the death of Nancy and 'before 1841' for the death of John. That's about it.
thanks for looking it was a long shot , will carry on researching to see if i can find out more .
hi , merry, i was still searching for a nancy in bolton and there is a nancy walwork baptism 1787 daughter daughter of john and betty , don't know if it helps any. has i was searching for any guys in bolton around the 1780s to look perhaps for siblings of nancy guy and i couldn't find any around Bolton there are lots in liverpool and around Halsall which is about 1 mile from ormskirk . . There are lots of flitcrofts in bolton . , trying to do a bit of deduction. lol
Yes, there is a bap for Nancy Walwork, but there are at least a dozen other Nancys within a couple of years baptised at Bolton, so you would need a reason to pick her over the others. Also, your Nancy may have started life as Ann or some other variation - Anne, Annie, Hannah, Nan etc, or Nancy Walwork may have been Ann when she married and/or died.
your right merry there are the others some at deane parish bolton , yes it's like ookingbfor a needle in a haystack lol , i keep looking for anything which could give us a clue but as yet nothing .
hi merry , did all of thomas and hannah stricklands children die , as i'm sure they had about four children , post 59 they are living in Preston with son richard robinson ? I have been trying to find the family in 1861 , but family search isn't great at finding anything particular census's it's so frustrating .
i also was trying to find john who he married . there is a couple of marriages in ormskirk which could be him . but he could have got married anywhere .and not ormskirk . again i tried to find him on a census but family search didn't come up with anything . I have found ellen and mary ann s marriages in ormskirk and can follow them to 1900 s.
only by chance i came across this record , of henry strickland born to hannah and thomas in 1844 in ormskirk . marrying a margeret pickering in 1873 , father thomas deceased , in Blackburn i believe he settled in Blackburn .
First name(s)
Last name
Relationship
Marital status
Gender
Age
Birth year
Occupation
Birth place
Henry
Strickland
Head
Married
Male
37
1844
Joiner & Cabinet Maker
Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Margaret
Strickland
Wife
Married
Female
32
1849
-
Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Mary Ellen
Strickland
Daughter
Single
Female
6
1875
Scholar
Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Arthur
Strickland
Son
Single
Male
4
1877
-
Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Sarah
Strickland
Daughter
Single
Female
2
1879
-
Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Alice Ann
Strickland
Daughter
Single
Female
0
1881
-
Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Sarah
Pickering
Sister In Law
Single
Female
26
1855
Cotton Weaver
Blackburn, Lancashire, England
hi merry , did all of thomas and hannah stricklands children die , as i'm sure they had about four children , post 59 they are living in Preston with son richard robinson ?
Do you mean died as children? In 1851 they had Anne 8 Mary 6 Thomas 3 and Ellen 6 weeks with them on the census. Those children were all born in Lathom except Ellen, b Preston.
I have been trying to find the family in 1861 , but family search isn't great at finding anything particular census's it's so frustrating .
1861:
14 Howarth Sq Blackburn
Hannah Strickland head widow 40 green grocer b Ormskirk
Ann Strickland dau unm 18 weaver of cotton b St Helens
Henry Strickland son 16 joiners apprentice b "
Thomas Strickland son 12 with a tin plate worker b "
Ellen Strickland dau 11 b "
James Strickland son 7 b Preston
i also was trying to find john who he married . there is a couple of marriages in ormskirk which could be him . but he could have got married anywhere .and not ormskirk . again i tried to find him on a census but family search didn't come up with anything . I have found ellen and mary ann s marriages in ormskirk and can follow them to 1900 s.
John who and when and where was he born and who was his father?
If this John is someone marrying after 1837 you could try Lancs OPC and add their father's name to the search as well as the groom which might give you fewer results.
hi Merry ,thanks for that , i will check the opc search with fathers name for John , .
from 1833 i could only find two marriages in ormskirk one in 1832 , which would make him around 18 ,but no father recorded . the rest i have seen with father added after 1837 fathers occupation doesn't match any .
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Record details
Previous Dwelling Next Dwelling Printable Format
Details of the location of the dwelling
Census County District Civil Parish Ecclesiastical Parish Piece Enumeration District Folio Page Schedule House Number House or Street Name
1861 Lancashire (LAN) Ormskirk Ormskirk Ormskirk 2765 1 2 2 8 Burscough St
New Search Revise Search Back to Results Previous Search Result Next Search Result Generate Citation
Details of each person in the dwelling
Surname Forenames Relationship Marital Status Sex Age Occupation Birth County Birth Place Disability Notes
the person found in your search ROBINSON John Head M M 46 Boot & Shoemaker Lancashire Bolton
ROBINSON Margaret Wife M F 39 Lancashire Bickerstaffe
ROBINSON Anne Dau U F 17 Lancashire Ormskirk
ROBINSON Margaret Dau U F 15 Dressmaker Lancashire Ormskirk
ROBINSON Richard Son - M 13 Scholar Lancashire Ormskirk
ROBINSON Thomas Son - M 11 Scholar Lancashire Ormskirk
ROBINSON John Son - M 10 Scholar Lancashire Ormskirk
ROBINSON Sarah Dau - F 8 Scholar Lancashire Ormskirk
ROBINSON John Son - M 3 Lancashire Ormskirk
LEATHERBARROW Thomas Fa-Law W M
found this census 1861 , this could be our john
john married margeret leatherbarrow in 1841 in liverpool .
Unfortunately, that marriage doesn't appear on Lancs OPC because they only have the marriages for the church (Our Lady and St Nicholas with St Anne, Chapel Street) up until 1840!! Typical!!
Here's a transcription of Ancestry's image:
12th April 1841 St Nicholas' Church Parish of Liverpool, County of Lancaster
John Robinson, full, bachelor, cordwainer, Highfield Street, Richard Robinson, cabinet maker
Margaret Leatherbarrow, minor, spinster, Key Street, Thomas Leatherbarrow, Wheelwright
Both signed.
Witnesses Thomas Constantine and Hannah Robinson (both signed).
So, Thomas is presumably John's brother in law (Thomas married Mary Ann Robinson, 1839, according to your earlier post) and Hannah his sister.
hi merry , i'm having a problem with family search , it's been saying error evertime i make a search . I have been looking for richard robinson born 1858/59 ormskirk on either the 1881 or 1891 . i looked on free cen , but it didn't come up with anything for him I couldn't find a marriage for him in ormskirk .this is the only one i could find on OPC.
: 25 Jun 1899 St Paul, Southport, Lancashire, England
Richard Robinson - 40, Cabdriver, Bachelor, 52 Cedar Street
Sarah Ellen Gray - 40, Widow, 52 Cedar Street
Groom's Father: John Robinson, deceased, Joiner
Bride's Father: George Whitehead, Whitesmith
Witness: John Robinson; Hannah Walker
Married by Banns by: Wm. Millington Vicar
Register: Marriages 1894 - 1909, Page 83, Entry 166
Source: LDS Film 1849662 If i could see a census i may have more ideas . thanks
Which one are you looking for? There are these two birth registrations:
ROBINSON, RICHARD WRIGHT
GRO Reference: 1858 S Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 496
ROBINSON, RICHARD JACKSON
GRO Reference: 1859 J Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 558
i'm sorry merry , i'm going by the 1861 census as in post 112 . for richard. i don't know if he had a middle name or not ? OPC doesnt show a birth for him in ormskirk .
Post #112 isn't helping me at all as it doesn't mention a Richard Robinson!
If you could just tell me the names of his parents (or whoever he is with) from the 1861 census then I can find that and work forwards.
Also, Wright and Jackson are not middle names, they are the mmn in each case.
Oh, hang on a minute. Did you mean 1858/9 or is it the Richard aged 13 on the 1861 census, so born 10 years earlier? This one:
ROBINSON, RICHARD LEATHERBARROW
GRO Reference: 1847 S Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 21 Page 541
???????
Well, I don't have time to hang around any longer, so in case it's that Richard:
Marriage: 26 Nov 1871 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Richard Robinson - full, Joiner, Bachelor, Ormskirk
Jane Almond - full, Spinster, Ormskirk
Groom's Father: John Robinson, deceased
Bride's Father: Lawrence Almond, deceased
Witness: Thomas Robinson; Mary Almond, (X)
Married by Banns by: J F Barnes - Curate
Register: Marriages 1864 - 1881, Page 121, Entry 241
Source: LDS Film 1849665
ROBINSON, MARGARET ALMOND
GRO Reference: 1879 M Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 858
Baptism: 12 Feb 1879 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Margaret Robinson - [Child] of Richard Robinson & Jane
Abode: Ormskirk
Occupation: Joiner
Notes: Received Baptism
Baptised by: I Phillips - Curate
Register: Baptisms 1877 - 1897, Page 43, Entry 337
Source: LDS Film 1849665
Name: Richard Robinson
Age: 48
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Death Registration Place: Ormskirk, Lancashire, United Kingdom
Death Date: Jun 1896
Inferred Death Place: Lancashire, United Kingdom
Volume: 8b
Page: 518
Burial: 8 Jun 1896 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Richard Robinson -
Age: 48
Abode: Ormskirk
Buried by: J J Hulley Assist. Curate
Register: Burials 1869 - 1906, Page 568, Entry 4522
Source: LDS Film 1849649
sorry merry , the dates i have give you are wrong anyway . Its richard robinson approx birth 1848 ormskirk. son of john and margeret Nee leatherbarrow . as on the 113 post census . i'm looking for a marriage or to see where he is in 1881 if he's not deceased. ?
Just read my last two posts.
thanks merry , been so busy turning over a vegatable plot , your a star one again , poor richard ,48 isn't old .
Lichfield Mercury 12 June 1896
The death occurred on Saturday morning of Richard Robinson, builder, Ormskirk, after a short illness. Deceased was very stout, and only a week or two ago weighed thirty-four stones eight pounds. The coffin is 6ft. 4in. long, 3ft. across the breast, and 2ft. 4 1/2in. in depth. Deceased was in his forty-ninth year.
There's a similar snippet in this paper: Lancaster Standard and County Advertiser 12 June 1896, which adds that he was the heaviest man in Lancashire and that the cause of death seemed to be his increasing corpulency, but also that he was very active at his trade and could be credited with the erection of more buildings in Ormskirk than any other builder.
wow , thank you for that , i would have never have found that , although he was the heaviest man ,it's nice to know that he was a good builder . so thanks for that snippet
hi Merry , i have been searching for a marriage for anne robinson age 17 on 1861 census post 113 . and sarah robinson age 8 on 1861 census on OPC . as yet have not found them . i did find Margeret from that census . she married william newsham butcher in 1873 . found them later on census living in burscough st with children . Any ideas ?
I looked at the 1871 census to see which children were still at home and unmarried:
(btw, the transcript you posted of the 1861 census included two children named John. The census image shows the younger one is James not John!)
1871 Census
13 Burscough St, Ormskirk
Margaret Robinson head widow 49 shoe maker b Bickerstaffe, Lancs
Richard Robinson son unm 23 joiner b Ormskirk, Lancs
James Robinson son 13 scholar b "
Ann dau 27 unm b "
Margaret dau 25 unm dressmaker b "
Sarah dau 19 unm dressmaker b "
Mary Ellen dau 7 scholar b "
Thomas Leatherbarrow father widower parish clerk b Burscough, Lancs
1881 census:
13 Burscough St, Ormskirk
Margaret Robinson head widow 59 shoe manufacturer b Bickerstaffe, Lancs
Anne Robinson dau unm 37 assistant b Ormskirk, Lancs
John Robinson son widower 30 bricklayer b "
James Robinson son unm 23 shoe maker b "
Mary E Robinson dau unm 17 dressmaker b "
John Robinson grandson 2 b Aughton, Lancs.
1891 census:
11 Burscough St, Ormskirk
John Robinson head widower 40 builder b Ormskirk, Lancs
Ann Robinson sister unm 47 cordwainer b "
John Robinson son 12 b "
Ellen Hesketh visitor widow 39 living on own means b "
1901 census:
162 Burscough St
John Robinson head widower 50 builder and contractor b Ormskirk, Lancs
Ann Robinson sister umn 57 housekeeper b "
John Robinson son unm 22 joiner b "
Amy Snape niece 9 b "
one servant.
1911 Census:
162 Burscough St, Ormskirk
John Robinson head widower 60 retired builder b Ormskirk, Lancs
Amy Snape niece unm 19 housekeeper b Skelmersdale, Lancs
I've not looked for any marriages yet as it took ages to type all those out with my two fingers! Amy Snape should be a clue to the marriage of most likely Mary Ellen or possibly Sarah.
I would look for Ann's death between 1901 and 1911.
Amy Snape's baptism is on Lancs OPC.
wow what a gem you are , i still can't get on family search ,for the census's it just says error it's been like that for the past week . and i tried free cen , but it didn't come up with anyone of those . so thanks for that
i will look for amy snake to see what i can find out . thanks
This is the marriage of Sarah Robinson:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NK2G-HGG
Additional info from image:
Both at 46 Orlando St Liverpool. John was a clerk and his father George Spurr, butcher. Sarah's father, John Robinson shoemaker. Witnesses George Wm Spurr and Mary Ibbs. Everyone signed.
This is them in 1881:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27L-FN4P
indexed as Spencer because that is what it says on the census page, but I expect the enumerator took a guess from the housholders form! I checked the registrations for a couple of children to confirm mmn Robinson and Sarah is the right age and b Ormskirk.
1891:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:77XN-ZW2
1901:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9K7-XCY
Sarah a widow in 1911:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWYS-GSV
i'm sorry merry i had to do shopping with my daughter , but once again you find what we are looking for . I can log in to your family search links so that's great . but if i try to see them myself error page will come up it's my old browser i think it's outdated , it's the same on find my past etc . so my ipad will soon be defunked . but i do appreciate all your help . a great big thanks you x
so my ipad will soon be defunked
Soon??!!! lol I think it already is. Anyway, those census records etc were really easy to find on FS, so if my links don't work you can just do the search yourself.
i found this for william H Spurr
. William Hewson SPURR, 1889 - 1949 William Hewson SPURR 1889 1949
William Hewson SPURR was born on month day 1889, at birth place , to John Charles SPURR and Sarah SPURR (born ROBINSON) .
William married Vivian Madeline SPURR (born ALLEN) on month day 1913, at age 23 at marriage place .
Vivian was born on April 15 1893, in Penetanguishene, Ontario, Canada.
They had 6 children: John Craig SPURR , Glenn Alton SPURR and 4 other children .
William passed away on month day 1949, at age 59 at death place .
He was buried at burial place . so he must have emigrated . it's surprising what you can find with just a name .
so he must have emigrated . it's surprising what you can find with just a name .
Is that just from a My Heritage tree? Like any other tree you should check the information is correct as many are not. In this case the marriage entry is on Ancestry in the Ontario, Canada, Marriages, 1826-1938 dataset, so that bit is confirmed. They married 13 Aug 1913 at Penetanguishene.
William emigrated to Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada arriving on the ship Grampian on 31 Mar 1910 (Ancestry Canada, Incoming Passenger Lists, 1865-1935)
There's a better picture of his grave on Find a Grave:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/99378118/william-hewson-spurr
If tht doesn't work for you, just search his name - there's only one match.
thanks merry that's great. i can't login on family , find my past , i can on ancestry as my 3rd cousin has i tree on there which i can access but not to search anything else . but you always come up with more . thanks again .
Hi merry i know we hit a brick wall. when it came to finding the right marriage for nancy and richard , we came down to two potential ones . nancy hargreaves in prestwich and nancy Guy in Warrington . I haven't a sub for ancestry , but i put nancy guys approx birth in ancestry now i can't see the info , but it does say cheshire births As i was wondering if Nancy Guy came from Bolton or around that area why go and get married at st elphins in warrington ? not to say that it isn't normal as one of my ancestors got married there although not part of that community . i'm just trying to find clues which would help . I'm going to check to see if the witnesses names may help ?
Post #64 onwards is where you were looking up possible baptisms for Nancy without worrying about her surname! You didn't find anything around Bolton. This could mean - 1) she wasn't born/baptised at Bolton 2) she wasn't baptised at all 3) she wasn't called Nancy at the baptism (most likely some variation of Ann) etc etc.
I don't think you can safely say either of the marriages is the correct one. What if your Nancy was called Ann at her marriage? Or what if the marriage took place somewhere where the record wasn't recorded/got damaged or lost/hasn't been transcribed etc etc?
If one or both of these marriages is not the one, then what happened to the bride(s) called Nancy? Were they known later as Ann? Did they have children? When and where did they die?
Without at least some of the answers you are not going to progress.
yes i understand. your right . merry i will try and look for those two after their marriages just in case neither of them are our nancy like you said she could have been a ann . i will see if I can glean anymore .
I tried putting richard robinson in with spouse ann ,and it didn't come up with any till 1816 .
I tried putting richard robinson in with spouse ann ,and it didn't come up with any till 1816 .
On which site?
Olde Crone
20-05-22, 12:00
I haven't time to read the whole thread, but the 1816 marriage on lan-opc is of a minor, so under 21. Does this rule her in or out on census?
OC
i don't think so ,
Of course it would rule her out, if it's the bride who was a minor! If Nancy/Ann was 20 or under in 1816 she wouldn't match the census records which suggest your Nancy was born about 1787. She would have also managed to pass herself off as a married woman when getting her first two children baptised! If it's the groom who was a minor you would have to ask yourself how likely it is that he was passing himself off as married in 1813 when his first child was baptised.
Having said that, when I look at Lancs OPC for marriages in 1816 between a Richard Robinson and an Ann I get two matches, neither of which involve a minor, so that's confusing me. There is one in 1818 with the bride a minor, but that makes things two years more unlikely!
And Qwackers - on which site did you find nothing until 1816?
hi , On the OPC search i put richard robinson marriages start 1812 with spouse ann but the results start 1816 ? what are you getting ? i've just checked it again .
Same as you on Lancs OPC.
Why did you decide to start your search in 1812?
If john robinson their first child was born in 1814 i would start the search two years earlier .
r
Surname Forenames Sex Age Occupation Birth County Notes
MASON Brian M 35 Plaster Out of County
MASON Ann F 35 Out of County
SAUL Mary F 15 F S Out of County
SAUL Jane F 5 Lodger Out of County
FRANKLAND Henry M 30 J P Out of County
SALBERY Thos M 25 J P Out of County
STEEL Joseph M 20 J P Out of County
GYSON James M 25 J P Out of County
THOMSON William M 18 Ap Out of County
the person found in your search ROBINSON James M 16 Ap Out of County
Merry just a question , you will have the answer , i thought i would try and find james robinson born 1825 as we didn't find him with his parents . so i was checking the census for him 1841!on Free cen i came across this one in ambleside above stocks westmorland . Now it may not be him , but what does ap in abbreviations on that census ? Thanks
it's just come to me is it apprentice ? as some are JP . could it be joiner apprentices ? you know everything , i'm just a novice lol ?
If john robinson their first child was born in 1814 i would start the search two years earlier .
This is the first child:
Baptism: 7 Mar 1813 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Ellen Robinson - Daughter of Richard Robinson & Nancy
Abode: Great Bolton
Occupation: Joiner
Baptised by: Thos. Brocklebank, Curate
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1815, Page 17, Entry 136
Source: LDS Family Search
Merry just a question , you will have the answer , i thought i would try and find james robinson born 1825 as we didn't find him with his parents . so i was checking the census for him 1841!on Free cen i came across this one in ambleside above stocks westmorland . Now it may not be him , but what does ap in abbreviations on that census ? Thanks
Probably apprentice. The head of house was a plasterer.
So you are looking for this James?
Baptism: 22 May 1825 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
James Robinson - Son of Richard Robinson & Nancy
Abode: Great Bolton
Occupation: Cabinet Maker
Baptised by: J. Slade Vicar
Register: Baptisms 1824 - 1826, Page 178, Entry 1421
Source: LDS Family Search
Your James is already in Ormskirk in 1841 (Aughton St). He is an apprentice tailor in the house of James Balshaw, 35, tailor.
Sorry merry i didn't see that census . and yes that's correct as he was a tailor .
Have you got a copy of that census , i can't find it on free cen , Thanks
Ormskirk isn't transcribed on FreeCEN for 1841.
It's here on Family Search:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQ2G-6T3
If the link doesn't work just search him, b 1826 Ormskirk and it was the sixth match on the census results list.
thanks merry , i managed to get it through the link , i hope they all didn't live in the same house , lol . so james was an apprentice tailor .thats very interesting .
once again you are a star , I want to thank you so much for all of your help through the past years , i know it's been a struggle for you lol , but we always get there ! in the end lol you have helped me so much , and found all these wonderful snippets of ancestors lives . It colours in some of the grey areas of the past , and brings them to life . I was unfortunate not to know a lot of my grandparents , so it means so much to me to find all these things ..you have the patience of a saint lol ,as i said my sight is not the best , and i miss things which are simple , But you always make sure i get it correct . . you have contributed so much for me . But i think i have learned a lot from you , although i still think i've a long way to go Lol So a big Thank You x
i hope they all didn't live in the same house
They were all classed as in the same house (ie the same front door) but the family (7 people) were recorded as a separate household from the rest who were a household of 8 people.
James Balshaw lived in Aughton St through to 1871. I can't be sure he is in the same house, but the household was always large (never 15 though, maybe 7-10 individuals). In 1871 the house is given a number - 47. I looked at number 47 in 1891 onwards where information about the property is asked for. In 1891 and 1901 just the number of rooms if less than 5 is requested, but nothing is filled in, suggesting 5 or more rooms. In 1911 the question is The number of rooms, including the kitchen but excluding scullery, lobby or closet, office or shop. This time it says 7 rooms.
Of course we don't know for sure if the houses had been knocked down and rebuilt, or renumbered etc etc during those decades, but looking at these photos:
https://www.southportvisiter.co.uk/news/gallery/ormskirk-nostalgia-growth-aughton-street-11049144
you see most of the properties have Georgian style sash windows with 6-12 glazed sections, suggesting the buildings were pre-Victorian, so very likely the sort of building number 47 would have been part of. 7 rooms for 15 people would warrant an article in the tabloids today, but wouldn't have been classed as particularly overcrowded in 1841.
Thanks merry , that's a lovely pic . yes i agree the houses look pretty big . some of them still exist . i have joined the ormskirk bygone days site , they have some interesting info all about ormskirk people etc . I haven't been to ormskirk for a couple of years it's a nice sweet place , surrounded by a lot of farmland , a lot of veg etc are grown around that part for lancashire and beyond . it was really bustling in the 1800s looking at some of the old photos on ormskirk bygone days . So was moor st and church st . It's a busy place as edge hill university is only a couple of miles away so it attracts a lot of people from outside the area . Thanks
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