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John Norman married Sarah Warren in Tiverton, Devon, 24th July 1814. They had eight children, all baptised in Tiverton - Robert (1816), George Henry (1820), John (1822, d1824), John James (1825), Georgiana (1826), Ellen (1829), Emma (1832) and Frederick (1835).
There were two people named Sarah Warren baptised in Tiverton in 1792 - one on 22nd April, the daughter of Thomas and Mary Warren; the other on 12th July, the daughter of Isaac and Sarah Warren. There are several Ancestry trees which include the family, and all of them show the Sarah who married John Norman as being the daughter of Isaac and Sarah. I can't see what evidence there is that she is definitely that one, rather than the other baptised the same year (and I know better than to trust an Ancestry tree unquestioningly!) - can anyone help please?
I had hoped perhaps one or both parents might have been witnesses to their marriage, which would help - but unfortunately not. One of the witnesses was a regular (also witnessed another marriage on the same page of the register), and the one unique to them was William Sheppard.
There is also a Sarah Warren marrying John Frost in Tiverton on 17th March 1821, which is probably whichever of the two born in 1792 hadn't already married John Norman - but the witnesses' names that time (William Perram and David Reeve) don't help either.
The child of Thomas and Mary was born 3 Jan 1788.
The child of Isaac and Sarah was born 10 Jul 1792.
This is from the PR images on FMP.
Thanks Merry. The Sarah who married John Norman gave her age as 59 in 1851 and 68 in 1861, which suggests the one born later is more likely to be her - although given the frequent inaccuracy of ages on censuses, it's hardly conclusive proof.
As well as the Sarah who married John Frost in 1821, there's another Sarah who married John Grant in 1813, who might be more likely to be the Sarah Warren b 1788. However, I can't find any census or death/burial that works to link either of those married women to a birth in 1788. I've only looked in the immediate vicinity of Tiverton though.
I think a lot of work needs to be done on both Warren families. Did they own land? Leave wills? Get mentioned in newspapers? What happened to any other children?
It is probably a lazy choice, and there may be no answer to be had, but it's worth following all three families to see if there are any clues.
Bit late, but there's also this:
Marriage of Thomas Reddross of Heytesbury in Wilts, merchant, bachelor and Sarah Warren of Tiverton in Devon, spinster, 1826
That Thomas, of Bishopstrow, Wiltshire, seems to have left a will mentioning wife Sarah and other Warrens:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5111/images/40611_311579-00540?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=WEQ8127&_phstart=successSource&pId=355672
His burial suggests he was b about 1797. I've not found them in 1851 at the moment, or her burial/death reg.
There's Sarah Reddrop on the 1861 census b Tiverton aged 57 with children b Bishopstrow, Wiltshire.
There are clearly a lot of Sarah Warren's about!
Thank you both for your help. John Norman did leave a will, so I can see if that mentions any of his in-laws. He died in 1856 but the will wasn't proved until 1860, which strikes me as an unusually long time. Perhaps there was a dispute over it?
kiterunner
29-08-20, 17:13
The probate record says he died "on or about 4 September 1856". Is there a story there?
The probate record says he died "on or about 4 September 1856". Is there a story there?
His death notice in the paper (Dorset County Chronicle 11 September 1856) says he did on that date after a short illness at Cowick St St Thomas', Exeter.
The probate record says he died "on or about 4 September 1856". Is there a story there?
Perhaps they couldn't be sure exactly when he died because no-one else was present?
Perhaps they couldn't be sure exactly when he died because no-one else was present?
More likely, nobody could quite remember the date. They probably thought there was no need to administer his estate until something happened: someone else died, or a property needed to be sold.
Have just received John Norman's will, which isn't of much help in differentiating his wife from anyone else who shared her name - but is of interest in other respects. Firstly, there appears to be nothing in the vagueness of the date at all - the wording "who died on or about" is part of the printed template, apparently not considering the possibility that someone's date of death might be known exactly!
In listing his children, John includes six whom I knew of, one I didn't - and does not mention Robert at all. Either he fell out with his oldest son and wrote him out of the will, or (more likely) I have identified Robert's parents incorrectly and need to be looking for a different John and Sarah Norman. I have nothing definite to connect Robert to the rest of that family, since by 1841 he had married and was living elsewhere.
kiterunner
09-09-20, 21:55
Sometimes a child was left out of the will because they had already been given their share of the inheritance, maybe on their marriage. Or because they didn't need money and their siblings did.
Thanks Kite. The majority of his estate went to his wife - the children were only given £10 each "to be laid out by them in the purchase of mourning". Perhaps Robert already possessed mourning clothes, so he didn't need to be bequeathed the money for them?
Eureka!! Just been searching Ancestry for Norman births in Exeter, and found this from the register of Bartholomew Street Baptist Church:
June 26 1837
It is hereby certified that Emma, daughter of John Norman of Saint Thomas, in the County of Devon, basket maker, and Sarah his wife who was daughter of Isaac Warren late of Tiverton, Devon, weaver, deceased, was born on the twenty ninth day of May One thousand eight hundred and thirty one, and that Frederic son of John and Sarah Norman was born on the sixteenth day of August One thousand eight hundred and thirty five, both born in the parish of Saint Thomas.
So those trees were correct after all - the Sarah who married John Norman was definitely the daughter of Isaac Warren. I'll keep looking for anything else which may help prove that Robert was the son of that John and Sarah rather than any other couple with the same names!
Hmm... Mary Ann Norman, who was definitely the daughter of John Norman and Sarah Warren as she was mentioned in the will (she predeceased her father, so what would have been her share went to her daughter), was baptised at St Thomas the Apostle, Exeter, on 13th October 1816. Robert Norman, who I think but am not entirely certain was the one who moved to Swansea and therefore my 3g-grandfather, was baptised at St Mary Major, Exeter, on 29th September 1816. It seems unlikely that the same couple would be having two children baptised at different churches within two weeks of each other - but not impossible, if one or both of them were not baptised until they were a few years old, rather than as babies.
There were plenty of other John Normans getting married in Devon at around the right time, two of them to Sarahs: one to Sarah Gill in Seaton and Beer on 12th August 1808, the other to Sarah Alfred in Ashburton on 17th May 1815.
That's typical - solve one bit only for something else to make the scenario less likely!
At marriage, what did Robert say for his father's occupation?
At those baptisms, Robert's father was a carpenter and Mary Ann's father was a basket maker, as you mentioned in post #17.
Mary Ann was baptised from Cowie St and Robert from Milk Street.
Have just received John Norman's will, which isn't of much help in differentiating his wife from anyone else who shared her name - but is of interest in other respects. Firstly, there appears to be nothing in the vagueness of the date at all - the wording "who died on or about" is part of the printed template, apparently not considering the possibility that someone's date of death might be known exactly!
In listing his children, John includes six whom I knew of, one I didn't - and does not mention Robert at all. Either he fell out with his oldest son and wrote him out of the will, or (more likely) I have identified Robert's parents incorrectly and need to be looking for a different John and Sarah Norman. I have nothing definite to connect Robert to the rest of that family, since by 1841 he had married and was living elsewhere.
Where was your Robert? What was his occupation and did he give Tiverton as a birthplace? Your Exeter baptism has that John Norman as a carpenter.
Robert is the only Norman of John and Sarah baptised at that church, but having looked 10 years either way from 1816 in Exeter only and no variable spellings I have:
17 Apr 1814 Matilda Palace St carpenter (Holy Trinity)
05 Feb 1815 Eliza Cowie St basket maker (St Thomas)
29 Sep 1816 Robert Milk St carpenter (St Mary Major)
13 Oct 1816 Mary Ann Cowie St basket maker (St Thomas)
23 Aug 1818 Elizabeth Cowie St basket maker (St Thomas)
27 Jun 1819 Samuel Quay Gate grocer (Holy Trinity)
12 Nov 1820 George Henry Cowie St basket maker (St Thomas)
07 Jul 1822 John Cowie St basket maker (St Thomas)
13 Jun 1824 John James Cowie St basket maker (St Thomas)
14 May 1826 Georgiana Cowie St basket maker (St Thomas)
That's typical - solve one bit only for something else to make the scenario less likely!
At marriage, what did Robert say for his father's occupation?
If we are talking the Robert Norman who married Catherine Griffiths, the wretched man could not wait to get married: 12 May 1837. Witnesses both had Welsh surnames.
But the 1861 census found on an Ancestry tree gives his birthplace as Exeter.
Robert was a mariner.
There are also Edwin and Eleanor, possibly twins bp 13 Sep 1829, children of John basket maker and Sarah.
But I'm not sure we now know who Robert's father is. His DOB looks nearer 1813
Erm, you said the children of the basket maker were bap in Tiverton, but they were baptised in Exeter!
Now I'm wondering where your Robert said he was from. I briefly looked in Wales, but didn't know which one he is!
Sorry, didn't see you there Phoenix!
Having looked at other threads here, this is def the right man:
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1861wales&indiv=try&h=13803967
as his son, James, marries Selina Protheroe (sp?) and there's a thread about her.
So, as you said, Phoenix, he married too soon to give his father's details. I suppose we need to know his age from all available censuses.
In 1871 his dob is 1808/9.
There's a burial of a Robert Norman that could easily fit the 1816 baptism, but would need further investigation is that proves necessary. It's at the same church as the bap but in 1852.
There is a Robert bp Uplyme, son of John, labourer and Grace who marries Miriam Eliza in Exeter (Miriam often calling herself Eliza) bp 3 March 1813.
I mention him, simply to demonstrate a wild goose I've been chasing.
Oh, is he the fish dealer? He could be the one who was bur in 1852 if he isn't on the 1861 census (I've not looked). In 1851 he is living in the correct parish for the burial.
Could well be.
Looking at Matilda, the possible sister of Robert, she might be this Matilda:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8860/images/DEVHO107_1891_1892-0640?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=6893423
She is living in Barnstaple, the daughter of John Norman, a carpenter. John, good man, givs and entirely different pob on every census: Devon, Newport Hants and Barnstaple.
There is a large gap between Matilda and her sister Emma, and this marriage of a John Norman in Barnstaple: https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBPRS%2FM%2F514235772%2F1
Sadly, it is only a transcript of John's marriage to Elizabeth Gibbons 8 December 1821, and even if he were a widow, it would prove nothing, but I cannot see what might have happened to Matilda.
I saw that Matilda and her father, but decided I might have to un-see them!
I think there's a death reg in Barnstaple for Matilda, or it may have been a burial!
Deaths Mar 1866 (>99%)
Norman Matilda 50 Barnstaple 5b 406
Sorry, didn't see you there Phoenix!
Having looked at other threads here, this is def the right man:
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1861wales&indiv=try&h=13803967
as his son, James, marries Selina Protheroe (sp?) and there's a thread about her.
So, as you said, Phoenix, he married too soon to give his father's details. I suppose we need to know his age from all available censuses.
Yes, that's the one. The reason he's so tricky to pin down is that his given age never increased by exactly 10 from one census to the next!
1841: 25
1851: 40 (his name was crossed out on the form - presumably because he was at sea on census night - and Catherine's written instead, but the birthplace is given as Exeter which is definitely his not hers, so I'd guess the age also refers to him)
1861: 48
1871: 62
1881: 70
Catherine died in 1872; in 1881 Robert is living with Ethel Alice Norman, who is recorded as his wife - although I haven't found any record of their marriage. Find A Grave has an Ethel A Norman buried in Swansea in 1883, which might well be her but I wouldn't be too confident of it. I'm more certain of Robert's death: 5th October 1884, Swansea. Unfortunately all my certs are at home so I can't check what age was recorded on there.
Based on the above, potentially born any time from 1809 to 1816. At least he's consistent with his birthplace, which is always recorded as Exeter.
Erm, you said the children of the basket maker were bap in Tiverton, but they were baptised in Exeter!
Sorry, that was me getting my notes in a mess! John and Sarah were married in Tiverton, but all the baptisms were in Exeter.
Robert was reported as 74 at death:
Deaths Dec 1884 (>99%)
NORMAN Robert 74 Swansea 11a 442
This is the only reg I could see for the burial you mentioned, so clearly not the one:
Deaths Jun 1883 (>99%)
NORMAN Ethel Annie 1 Swansea 11a 446
The writing is pretty poor for the 1881 census entry, but it does look like Ethel Alice. There are no death registrations for Ethel Alice anyone who would fit with being aged 70 in 1881.
I like her occupation of 'widow' for a supposedly married woman!!
The absence (as far as I can find) of a marriage registration suggests that it was a "common law marriage" - plenty about those in my recent reading! That doesn't, however, explain the apparent lack of a death registration, or for that matter any record of her with any surname either before or after 1881...
I cannot think that her name was Ethel AND her birthdate c1810. But no better names spring to mind.
Yes, that's what I thought. Maybe she had a Welsh name the enumerator was unfamiliar with?
I had hoped Mrs Sarah Lloyd on the following page to Ethel Alice, same address, separate household, might be connected to Ethel, but she is Robert's daughter, so that's no help.
Yes, that's what I thought. Maybe she had a Welsh name the enumerator was unfamiliar with?
Given that dreadful handwriting, it's probably we who don't recognise a Welsh christian name.
I agree.
I did check 2 Skinner St in 1871 and 1891 just in the case there were any clues. Nothing.
Do you know who registered Robert's death?
We may have to wait for Michael's trip home- I think he said he didn't have his notes or certs with him.
Yes, hoping to pop home sometime this/next week (depending on what demands job interviews make on my time!) so I'll have to check the original then.
I notice that the first letter of Robert's wife's name doesn't look like the first letter of his birthplace (or indeed the first letter of Edward Williams, the first name on the same page) - so maybe not an E? But I can't immediately think what other letter it might be. There are five death records of Normans in Swansea between 1881 and 1891 which would fit a DOB a few years either side of 1810, but only one is a woman - Anne Norman d Q3 1885 aged 80 - and whatever the name is on the census return, it certainly doesn't look like Anne! Then again, if she and Robert weren't legally married, the name recorded on her death certificate might have been something completely different... and it looks like they probably weren't, because there's only one marriage of a Robert Norman in Swansea in between Catherine's death and the 1881 census, and I can exclude that one because I already know that the Robert who married Ann Grey was the son of Robert and Catherine.
Coincidentally, one of the potential jobs is in Exeter, although I'm not sure how much use "on the spot" research will be when so much stuff is online. I might possibly find a Norman gravestone or two which might give a clue.
kiterunner
13-09-20, 13:07
I don't think the first letter of Robert's wife's name is that different in construction from the E's on the page:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8059/images/GLARG11_5360_5363-0405?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=5834383
Coincidentally, one of the potential jobs is in Exeter, although I'm not sure how much use "on the spot" research will be when so much stuff is online. I might possibly find a Norman gravestone or two which might give a clue.
Masses of stuff not available online. Land Tax, will transcripts, etc etc etc.
Masses of stuff not available online. Land Tax, will transcripts, etc etc etc.
Not denying that, I was thinking more specifically of something which might enable us to pin down the birth of Robert Norman. I suppose it's possible that the Devon parish records on Ancestry may be incomplete, and if I head to the RO I might find a baptism under that name which slipped through the net.
There are certainly gaps on FMP - transcripts only, rather than images etc.
It is hopelessly out of date, but the National Index of Parish Registers would indicate what was available twenty years ago and show where gaps might lie.
Devon was one of the counties were the Mormons were not allowed a toe-hold and virtually all the stuff on Family Search was from transcripts held by the West Country Studies Library in Exeter.
Thanks for the info. The Exeter interview is on Friday (done remotely, fortunately, so I don't have to go all the way down there for half an hour!), so sometime after that I should find out whether or not I'll be heading there...
Right, back home and with access to certificates...
Death in the subdistrict of Swansea in the county of Glamorgan
When and where died: Fifth October 1884, 5 Clifton Row, Swansea
Name and surname: Robert Norman
Sex: Male
Age: 74 years
Occupation: Ship rigger
Cause of death: Apoplexy, certified by Jabez Thomas FRCS
Signature, description and residence of informant: Thomas Lloyd, son-in-law, present at the death, 5 Clifton Row, Swansea
When registered: Sixth October 1884
Signature of registrar: Arthur J. Richards
Thomas Lloyd was the husband of Sarah mentioned above. If his death was not registered by Ethel (or whatever her name was), it seems likely she predeceased him. Probably he moved from Skinner Street to Clifton Row, about half a mile away, to be with his family when he could no longer look after himself.
Without the security of marriage (and the chance of something after his death) a woman may well have moved on to be housekeeper to someone else if a man fell ill.
Thanks Phoenix. As far as I can ascertain from the probate index, Robert left no will, so if he and Ethel were not married, anything which he left would probably have gone to his kids.
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