Jones/Williams of Ruabon/Rhos/Wrexham

[NickJarvis]

Hi

I have ordered some marriage certificates, but still a little unsure. Hopefully someone can either offer reassurance or point me in the right direction please :)

My great grandparents were Harriet Jones (1875 to 1973) and Edmund Williams (1875 to 1944). I have asked about this before I think, but I now have more info. According to the MC, Harriet's dad was Thomas Jones (a collier). One of the witnesses was Sarah Jane Williams (maybe Edmund's sister) and the other was Walter Davies. Neither Harriet nor Edmund had been married before and their marriage was 1906 in Cefn, Wexham. I therefore searched the census records for 1881 and 1891 for a Harriet and Thomas Jones (in Rhos/Cefn/Wrexham/Ruabon etc) and found:

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8059&h=2433021&ssrc=pt&tid=168425407&pid=252186783897&usePUB=true

I am not convinced as that would mean a huge family I know nothing about but also it would end up being that Thomas's sister Ann married a Richard Potter (who was my 2nd great granddad on my Dad's side). Richard's first wife died then he married Ann.

My second great granddad on my Dad's side had a niece (Harriet) who was my great grandmum on my Mum's side. So therefore, Richard was not only my 2nd great granddad on my Dad's side, but also my 2nd great grand uncle on my Mum's side (through marriage). I assume this is quite common, but is a strange coincidence too?

Unless, there is another census that I have missed. That is my query really. Could I have the wrong census and therefore the wrong family?

Thanks
Nick

[kiterunner]

It's not unusual to find connections between the two sides of your tree if your parents came from the same area.

Obviously it is easy to go wrong with names like Jones and Williams, but at least Harriet is a less common first name than some. What does the marriage cert say for her place of residence?

[NickJarvis]

Thanks Kiterunner

Residence at time of marriage for Harriet was Cambrian Buildings, Cefn. Edmund was Bank View, Cefn

Thanks

[kiterunner]

Can you confirm that this is the correct 1911 census entry?

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2353/images/rg14_34025_0359_06?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=e08fe3cb6328ea30d6c47100192b0d9c&pId=2333257

Gives Ruabon as birthplace for both Edmund and Harriet.

[NickJarvis]

That is correct, as Howell was my Granddad's brother

[kiterunner]

This could be Harriet on the 1901 census at Cambrian House, Well St:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7815/images/DENRG13_5216_5219-0840?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=33055447

Her age is 21 but she could have knocked a few years off. I think the birthplace is the same as for the Harriet who you found in 1881?

[NickJarvis]

Haha - that was something else that threw me. I am sure I have a few records where the age differed by 3 or so years

[NickJarvis]

So it looks like I am on the right lines then?

[Phoenix]

In the family you have found, Harriet is the youngest of her family by several years, so it is quite possible that she might not be very closely attached to siblings who were nearly a generation removed, losing contact within a generation or two.

Conversely, in small, tight-knit communities that had no need to travel you will often find several marriages between families.

There are a lot of Thomas Jones that you need to be sure you have eliminated, but I would not have a problem with inter-family marriages, nor that you don't know about families nearly 150 years ago.

[NickJarvis]

I can only find one family though with both a Thomas and a Harriet Jones. Was concerned I had missed something though.

Cheers

[kiterunner]

Do I remember the name Valentine coming up on one of your other threads?

This is the Thomas / Ann / Harriet Jones family in 1891:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/6897/images/DENRG12_4610_4612-0590?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=497557

Starts at the bottom of the page with Thomas, then the rest are on the next page, including some Valentines. I think Jane and Mary E should be granddaughters rather than daughters.

[Merry]

Is this Harriet's death?

Name: Harriet Williams
Death Age: 97
Birth Date: 8 Dec 1875
Registration Date: Jul 1973
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Wrexham
Inferred County: Denbighshire
Volume: 8a
Page: 1868

A Harriet Williams with the same dob is with Edmund (dob 10 Jul 1875) on the 1939 Register.

There look like the most likely birth registrations:

JONES, HARRIET JANE mmn PRICE
GRO Reference: 1875 D Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 11B Page 323

JONES, HARRIET mmn PARRY
GRO Reference: 1876 M Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 11B Page 298

The first is probably not the right one as there is a Harriet Jane, dau of Thomas and Sarah Jones on the 1881 and 1891 census who fits that registration (and a likely marriage for Thomas Jones and Sarah Price, Wrexham 1874). Also, your Harriet doesn't show a middle name at marriage or death. If you are concerned that it's the following Q to her birth - you have 42 days to register a birth!

There's a possible marriage 4 Mar 1854 for Thomas Jones and Ann Parry (FMP). Both aged 21 he was a colllier, both of Street Isaf. His father John Jones, collier, her father William Parry, labourer. Witnesses Daniel Wright and Hannah Jones (mark). Thomas Jones signed and Ann Parry made her mark. The marrriage took place at Ruabon parish church.

[NickJarvis]

@kiterunner - yes, Valentine. Very well remembered :) - will look at that link, thanks

@Merry - yes that looks like Harriet's death. I also noticed on another MC, 'in the mark of'. What does that mean? And on Gro I couldn't find a middle name, and assumed her mmn was Parry. I will check FMP too. Thanks

[NickJarvis]

So, a couple of Ancestor members have submitted a contribution stating that Jane Jones and Mary E Jones should be Valentine, indicating to me that maybe Elizabeth is the mum and she married a Valentine?

[Phoenix]

VALANTINE, JANE JONES
GRO Reference: 1881 J Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 11B Page 310

The girls are shown as Valantine (not Jones) and the census suggests they are Elizabeth's daughters, though they should have been described as Thomas and Ann's granddaughters.

[Merry]

I also noticed on another MC, 'in the mark of'. What does that mean?


"X the mark of Joe Bloggs" just means Joe Bloggs couldn't sign his name, or the person asking assumed he couldn't and so he (or she!) made their mark instead.

[NickJarvis]

aha, thank-you :)

[NickJarvis]

@Phoenix - could the 2 girls and boy have been Elizabeth's children, but she wasn't married? Therefore on the census they were put down as the children rather than the GC? I have an Elizabeth Valentine as Edmund's auntie, born circa 1854, making her 36 (ish) in 1891, which matches the Elizabeth in the census? Or am I making too much of an assumption?

[kiterunner]

This is what the 1891 census entry says:

Thomas Jones Head M 58 Collier Denbigh Ruabon
Ann Jones Wife M 58 Denbigh Ruabon
Elizabeth Valentine Daur Wid 36 Do Do
William Jones Son S 26 Collier Do Do
Edward Do Son S 20 Terracotta Maker Do Do
Harriet Do Daur S 15 Do Do
Jane Valentine Daur S 9 Scholar Do Do
Mary E Do Daur S 1 Do Do
Robert Williams Boarder Widr 35 Collier Do Do.

I would assume that the two Valentine girls were Elizabeth's daughters and were accidentally put down as daughters instead of granddaughters.

[Merry]

In 1891 Elizabeth Valentine is listed as a widow and also as the dau of Thomas and Ann Jones. The relationship of everyone in the household should be their connection to the head (Thomas Jones), but mistakes are often made - you just need to work out which records - if any - are mistakes!! If you have an unmarried Elizabeth Valentine of the same age in another family, you need to try and find her in another household in 1891 to eliminate her (if you think this could be her, which I very much doubt), so follow her forward - for instance, can you find a marriage for her that you can prove is the right person?

There are a couple of potential Elizabeth Jones to a Valentine marriages in 1882 and 1883 in Wrexham district. It looks likely that the 1883 marriage for Jonathan Valentine was to the 'other' bride on the GR index (Sarah something, I forget now), as there is a fitting couple on the next census. I haven't been able to work out who married who from the other pair of marriages which involved an Elizabeth Jones and Thomas Valentine.

[NickJarvis]

Thanks both. So i am making an assumption that the Elizabeth Valentine I have in my tree is not the same Elizabeth as in this census? My original Elizabeth was a Valantine from birth, but this Elizabeth was a Valentine through marriage. Then her husband died?

[Phoenix]

Might this be Elizabeth Valantine nee Jones in 1881:

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBC%2F1881%2F4362761%2F00890&parentid=GBC%2F1881%2F0025634234


Here is a possible marriage for Elizabeth Jones:
Marriages Dec 1879 (>99%)DAVIES Mary Wrexham 11b493 https://www.freebmd.org.uk/btnInfo.gif https://www.freebmd.org.uk/scanavail.gifJones Elizabeth Wrexham 11b493 https://www.freebmd.org.uk/btnInfo.gif https://www.freebmd.org.uk/scanavail.gifPRICE Joseph Wrexham 11b493 https://www.freebmd.org.uk/btnInfo.gif https://www.freebmd.org.uk/scanavail.gifValantine William Wrexham 11b493 https://www.freebmd.org.uk/btnInfo.gif

[Phoenix]

A William aged 32 died in 1884 in Wrexham.

[NickJarvis]

Thanks - more info for me to check. I thought I was getting the hang of this.

What confused me was an Elizabeth Valantine who was born same year as Elizabeth Jones. I take it there are 2 Elizabeth's; 1 born Valentine and 1 who married a Valantine

[NickJarvis]

Also, where has Elizabeth Jones come from? She just appears on the census as Valentine. Sorry for sounding dumb!

[Merry]

She's the daughter of Thomas and Ann Jones who are listed before her on the 1891 census page (I think the head (Thomas Jones) was on the prev page?). See if she is with her parents in 1861 and 1871.

Phoenix, that was the marriage I wondered about, but then discovered I've had a big fraud on my bank account :eek:, so forgot all about this thread!! :rolleyes:

[Merry]

1871:

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=WEQ7584&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&dbid=7618&gsfn=tho*&gsln=jones&gsfn_x=1&gsln_x=1&cp=11&gskw=ruabon&gskw_x=1&mssng=ann*&mssng_x=1&mssns_x=1&msbdy=1833&msbdy_x=1&msbdp=5&qh=0f4185528f1902da63e68bb2222e6e60&new=1&rank=1&uidh=672&redir=false&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=0&h=27233987&recoff=&ml_rpos=1&queryId=4f232524fb00a5b3e7d9ddb7483f9b6a

1861:

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8768&gsfn=tho*&gsln=jones&gsfn_x=1&gsln_x=1&cp=11&gskw=ruabon&gskw_x=1&mssng=ann*&mssng_x=1&mssns_x=1&qh=748a76d2bafd2b51cc05abd94f4bfe28&new=1&rank=1&uidh=672&redir=false&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=3&h=15448061&recoff=&ml_rpos=4&hovR=1

I have to admit in both cases I stopped looking the minute I found a family with the right children, but for completeness Is suppose you should look at all the familie of couples called Thomas and Ann Jones of the rght age and place, just in case there's more than one possibility!

[NickJarvis]

Thanks Merry. Hope the bank sorted your account out ??

[Merry]

I have to wait and see how things look tomorrow!