Does anyone want a challenge?

[West Yorkshire Maggy]

I'm trying to find out information about my husbands great grandfather.

I have his marriage certificate (19 Mar 1908, Darnall Parish Church, Sheffield, Yorkshire) and I have him on the 1911 census living in Sheffield, but apart from that I have nothing. He doesn't seem to exist before he got married.

His name was John Ernest Whiting born C1880. His marriage certificate gives his father as John, an engineer, and his address as Fair Ground, Main Road, Darnall (Sheffield). They were travellers, which I think is part of the problem! On his son's birth certificate the father is given as John E Whiting and their address then was Maltby Road, Bramley (in 1910)

I did find them on the 1911 census eventually (transcribed as Whitney!) It gives
John Ernest Whiting, 31, Roundabout Proprieter, born Deptford, London S. E.
Mary Ellen Whiting, 28, born Darnall, Sheffield
Eliza Ann Whiting, 2, born Stairfoot, Barnsley
John Ernest Whiting, 8 months, born Bramley, Rotherham.
They were living in a caravan on what looks like Bamforth Street, Penistone Road, Sheffield, which I know is the area they lived in.

I did find the baptism of a John Whiting in the Deptford area, with a father John, but on the 1911 census he is still living with his parents in Deptford.

I have searched on every census, using every combination that I can think of, but nothing.

Anyone got any bright ideas please :confused:

[West Yorkshire Maggy]

Forgot to say he died 17 Mar 1946, in Sheffield aged 66.

[samesizedfeet]

There's this family - but the father is a coal porter not and engineer

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7814&iid=LNDRG13_526_527-0337&fn=Benjamin&ln=Whiting&st=d&ssrc=&pid=3996969

[samesizedfeet]

ignore that - John junior is still there in 1911

[Merry]

I only have a few mins so am copying down entries from the 1901 that might be connected if only cousins or whatever! Or maybe not connected at all!

John Whiting 17 b Derbys living Chesterfield Nottingham Selston occ Travelling Showman

John Whiting 49 b Norfolk Born In A Travelling Van Not Known living Lancashire Urmston occ Traveller To Fairs

James Whiting 22 b Chesterfield Derbyshire living Lancashire Urmston occ Traveller To Fairs

Gervase Whiting 20 b Derbys Chesterfield living Nottingham Selston occ Travelling Showman

Bother - don't have time for any more......

[kiterunner]

I don't suppose the witnesses at John's wedding are any help?

[Phoenix]

Births Mar 1881

WHITING Jarvis Chesterfield 7b 720


Marriages Jun 1918
Whiting Jarvis Riley Sheffield 9c 984



The above is Merry's Jarvis, I think - so could be a connection, as he looks like John's brother. Trouble is, their Dad is sometimes Samuel, sometimes William, and has a lot of occupations, including operating swing boats!

[Phoenix]

http://www.nfa.dept.shef.ac.uk/history/charter/knuts.html

iF IT IS THE RIGHT FAMILY, there are various links on this site.

[West Yorkshire Maggy]

Thanks for your interest everyone.

Firstly Zoe, the John Whiting that you found in 1901 living in Deptford was the one that I got really excited about! Then, like you say, he is living with his parents still in 1911, which is a real shame because I have found lots of information on his family on ancestry, including baptism records:(

I'm still checking up on the ones you found, Merry. The travelling showmen ones sound promising, but none of them seem to have a father called John. I'm sure they are connected somehow though. Will go back to the 1901 census and have another good look at them all, thanks. Another family member found the ones based in Norfolk and was convinced they were the right family, until I found them on the 1911 census, where John Ernest said he was born in Deptford. Something not quite right here I think:confused:

Kiterunner, I didn't think of the marriage witnesses! One of them is his sister in law, but I will have a good look to see if I can link the other one in somewhere. His name is James Holmes.

Thanks for the link to the Sheffield University site Phoenix. I knew they had showmen and travellers records there, but didn't realise they had a website. I will have a good look at that one.

Thanks everyone for your imput. Another pair of eyes does sometimes help and you have all given me something to follow up, so thanks again for that.

[Phoenix]

That Norfolk family press so many of the right buttons, especially Samuel's son marrying in Sheffield.

Can anybody find John senior in 1881? I certainly can't, nor a convincing birth for John junior.

If John is hideously mistranscribed then, it may still be the right family.

[kiterunner]

When you say John senior, do you mean Samuel, Phoenix? Is he called John on any of the censuses?

[Phoenix]

William Whiting, a sawyer, had several children bp in Diss, including Elizabeth, 3 Feb 1837, Samuel bp 1842 from memoryand John bp 21 Dec 1846.

The family move to Norwich in 1851. By 1861 they are in Chesterfield, where Samuel is a licensed hawker (and William still a sawyer) John, aged 13, is a collier's labourer.

In 1871, William is a confectioner and John, aged 22, is a carter.

In 1881, I've just found John, married to Elizabeth, a traveller in Mancester. But I can't find him in 1891 yet.

[Phoenix]

Hmm

What about this?

RG13 piece 384 folio 132 page 20 Father is an ironmonger, but a boarder is a civil engineer.

[Merry]

I haven't read all the posts, but I thought the ref to an engineer meant he looked after the mechanics on the fairground rides?

[West Yorkshire Maggy]

Well, I've had another good look around and still found nothing too promising! The Norfolk family does sound like they might be connected, but why would John Ernest Whiting say he was born in Deptford on the 1911 census? Even more :confused: now

[West Yorkshire Maggy]

Anyone else got any ideas please?

[kiterunner]

Hmm

What about this?

RG13 piece 384 folio 132 page 20 Father is an ironmonger, but a boarder is a civil engineer.

That family is in Southwark in 1881 and the son is listed as John E Chas Wittin on that one.
RG11 Piece 523 Folio 4 Page 1
So not the same family as the one you found in 1881.

[kiterunner]

There is an Elizabeth Whiting age 59 born Ollerton in Barton upon Irwell in 1911, with Alice Whiting age 18. (I can't view the full entry without paying)

[kiterunner]

Ah yes, Merry found that family in 1901 ages ago! This is the full 1901 entry:

Stretford Road (The Anchorage), Urmston, Lancashire
John Whiting Head M 49 Traveller to Fairs, Employer, Norfolk born in a travelling van Not Known
Elizabeth Whiting Wife M 47 Traveller to Fairs Oleton, Yorkshire
Alice Whiting Daur S 8 Lancashire, Manchester
Richard Newall Brother-in-Law Widr 52 Cab Proprietor Lancs Manchester
James Whiting Nephew S 22 Traveller to Fairs Chesterfield Derbyshire
George Harrington Visitor S 18 Traveller to Fairs Oldham Lancashire
Elizabeth Jennings Visitor S 18 Traveller to Fairs Lancs Manchester

[Merry]

Is there a birth reg for Deptford? (Greenwich?)

Have you investigated the neighbours in 1911?

[kiterunner]

Can anyone figure out how Richard Newall became John Whiting's brother-in-law? Richard Newall married Susannah Bradshaw in 1868 and was a widower by 1891 but there are a couple of possible marriages for him between then and 1901, both in Chorlton district - to Alice Rollitt in 1891 or to Jane Neville in 1900. An Alice Newall died in 1894 age 36, also in Chorlton district. I haven't found Alice Rollitt on the 1891 census yet, though.

[kiterunner]

Ah, in 1871 Alice Rollett is in Sheffield, age 13, birthplace Yorkshire Owlerton. Parents William and Emma. But there isn't an Elizabeth. She could have left home by then, though... off to the 1861...

[kiterunner]

Yes, in 1861 William and Emma Rollett have a daughter Elizabeth age 8, and there is a possible marriage on FreeBMD for Dec 1875, Wakefield 9c 103:
Crosland Sarah Ann
Mears James
Rollith Elizabeth
Whiting John

[kiterunner]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before that John and Elizabeth Whiting in 1881 don't have any children with them, and I don't think we've found them in 1891 yet to see if they have a son called John.

[West Yorkshire Maggy]

Thanks for all the information again. I am certain that the Norfolk Whiting's are connected somehow, but still can't tie them in with a John Ernest Whiting, born in Deptford:confused:

How frustrating is this;(

[West Yorkshire Maggy]

Just giving this one a small nudge hoping that someone else out there has a flash of inspiration!!

I'm still going around in circles with this one and getting more and more:confused:

[kiterunner]

Found this in 1911 at Barton upon Irwell, Lancashire:
Elizabeth Whiting 59 widow Ollerton Yorkshire
Alice Whiting 18

Widows weren't supposed to fill in the "number of children" columns on the 1911 census, but some did, so you could have a look at the image in the hope that she did, and see if she had more than 1 surviving child, in which case one of them could be your John Ernest. Or if she only had 1 surviving child we can rule her out as his mother.

[JayG]

1911 In a field off Trafford Road

Eliz. Whiting married 59 Travelling showman Born Yorkshire, Ollerton
Alice Whiting niece 18 Born Lancs, Hulme

Marriage & children not complete.

[kiterunner]

Ah, that's a pity.

[kiterunner]

This is something of a long shot, but here goes:

Death Dec 1910 John Whiting age 64 Barton I vol 8c p 389.
(Also on Lancashire BMD)

The age doesn't quite match with him being 49 in 1901, but it does fit with his age in 1881 which was 34. I'm just thinking if you get the death cert, there is a small chance the informant will be John Ernest Whiting, son.

Same goes for Elizabeth Whiting, death registered Jun 1914 , age 62, Barton I, vol 8c page 725. (Also on Lancs BMD).

Also it's possible that if you get Alice Whiting's marriage certificate, John Ernest Whiting might be a witness, though even if he is, it won't say how he was related to her. But her marriage entry on the indexes confuses things even further:
George Massey married Alice Whiting / Alice Newall, Mar 1914 Manchester. Why does she have an alternative surname of Newall?

Anyway, these are all how you could try to prove that John Whiting and Elizabeth were John Ernest's parents, but of course none of this will help if they weren't, and even if they were his name might not be on any of the certificates.

[kiterunner]

Hmmm, there is no birth for Alice Whiting listed in the Manchester area around 1892-3 but there is an Alice Newall born in 1892. Unfortunately Lancashire BMD hasn't got the mother's maiden name, but it looks likely that Alice wasn't really John and Elizabeth's daughter but their niece, the daughter of Richard Newell and Alice (Elizabeth's sister), see post 21 above). But that doesn't help with John Ernest since he was born before Richard and Alice even got married.

Confused!

[West Yorkshire Maggy]

Hi again, just got back to this thread and thanks to you all for keeping looking for me. I really am still going round in circles with this one! I have more Whiting's added to my Family Tree Maker desperately trying to tie them in with mine somewhere...lol...

I think I might just take your advice Kiterunner and sent for that death certificate and keep my fingers crossed. I will let you know if it explains anything.

Thanks again to you all for showing an interest.

[West Yorkshire Maggy]

Just been looking through some information that some other family member gave me taken from the World's Fair magazine. It mentions the funeral of Elizabeth Whiting in 1914. It tells of Mr and Mrs George Massey, her adopted daughter. I've just found the marriage in 1914 of George Massey to Alice Whiting or Newall, so that confirms that one.

It also mentions the funeral of John Whiting on 10th December 1910. It tells of daughter Alice, but no mention of a son John, but it does mention Mr & Mrs John Whiting, nephew and niece!!

More confusion!!

[kiterunner]

If the nephew John is John Ernest, then it sounds as if his marriage certificate gives the wrong father's name. But that's if.

[West Yorkshire Maggy]

Lol.... I seem to have found lots of "ifs and maybe's":o

[Ellesse]

New on this site but want to keep this thread active. I think that the nephew named John Whiting was from Chesterfield and his father was Samuel Whiting. This family originated from Diss in Norfolk. Still looking for John Ernest who came from Depford, S.E. London

[West Yorkshire Maggy]

Just giving this thread a small nudge. Recent information says that the father of John Ernest Whiting was John Whittington! Have looked into this and found John Whittington who was a fairground traveller, but still can't connect him to John Ernest......sigh.... but I will keep plodding on!!

[kiterunner]

Wow, that's a blast from the past! Will have to read through the thread again as I don't remember much about it! What was the source of the recent information, if you don't mind me asking?