Benjamin Sayle goes to Australia.

[Olde Crone]

But does he ever come home? If he doesn't, then I have the wrong man in my tree, grrr.

Benjamin Sayle b 1835 Isle of Man, parents William Sayle and Ann Cleator. I have him at home with his parents in 1841, 51,61, then in 1881 married.

I have just found the diary of his father William, in the Manx Museum. The description gives biographical detail that all six of William's sons emigrated to Australia and gives a detail

1855 Dec 18, Mr Kinvig from Melbourne called (William's farm in I oM) with gold from Tommy. He knows Tommy, Benny and Joe"

This suggests Benjamin was in Melbourne in 1855, but did he stay in Australia or did he come home?

I know less than nothing about Australian research and don't have a clue how to confirm or disprove my Benjamin. The likelihood of me ever getting to the Isle of Man to read this diary and the accompanying letters is as remote as the likelihood of me ever getting to Australia. Ideas please!

OC

[Kit]

Do you know where in Australia OC?

[kiterunner]

Ancestry has a Benjn Sayle age 28 leaving Victoria, Australia for Liverpool on the "Monica" Apr 1859. The age is a bit out for your Benjamin but could be him? It links to the site below but doesn't take me straight to the actual record:

https://prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/passenger-records-and-immigration

[Kit]

He didn't marry or die in NSW.

Ancestry is giving me nothing for Australia at all.

There is a William Benjamin Sayle won received a British War Medal.

I'll try immigration records to see if I get anything.

[kiterunner]

Oh, maybe you have to view the actual record at the record office. Anyway, I should think it is likely to be him.

[kiterunner]

He didn't marry or die in NSW.

Ancestry is giving me nothing for Australia at all.

There is a William Benjamin Sayle won received a British War Medal.

I'll try immigration records to see if I get anything.

The original post said Melbourne.

[Kit]

William Sayle died in Victoria mother Ann Cleator, father William in 1860

Jno Sayle same parents died 1901.

No Benjamin's mentioned.

[Olde Crone]

Kate, thankyou, that does look a good possibility and would fit nicely with him being at home with parents in 1861.

Kit - I honestly don't know where the brothers went, can only pinpoint Melbourne in1855 but of course they may have moved away from there. Benjamin had a brother called William, so William Benjamin could well be a close relative. Thankyou for looking.

OC

[Olde Crone]

Thankyou Kit, I didn't have those death dates.

I did the research on this family many years ago and it was all speculative till I found this diary. Nice to know I got it right, they were a nightmare to research, so many parallel families.I

OC

[kiterunner]

This is Jos[eph] Sayle travelling to Melbourne, Victoria from Liverpool, arriving Aug 1854:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1635/30796_125449__075-00596?pid=2671016&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx51534&_phstart=successSource

Jos Sayle age 17, English. His brothers aren't with him though.

[Olde Crone]

Thanks again, Kate. I think the brothers went one by one as their births were spread over 20 years.
Imagine being a farmer and having six sons and they all emigrate as soon as they are old enough. Their father was a temperance reformer, maybe that's why.

OC

[Pinefamily]

Possibly the brothers came out for the Victorian gold rush in the 1850's.

[Kit]

OC was there a James? One died in NSW in 1905, father William, mother Ann.

Maybe not them as we don't know the mother's maiden name.

There is nothing in QLD either.

[Macbev]

Joseph and Thomas Sayle appear on the 1856 electoral roll in Ironbark Gully (Bendigo, formerly known as Sandhurst, Victoria). They are listed as miners, so undoubtedly came out in response to the goldrush which took place there in the 1850s.
The records are complicated by the presence of another Thomas Sayle, s/o Charles Sayle & Catherine Cottier, but I am trying to sort through the records.
A John Sayle, farmer, 65 yrs, with wife Emma Jane, 55 yrs, left Plymouth, bound for Melbourne in 1887

[Olde Crone]

Kit and Macbev, thankyou both, more information I didn't have.

Yes, there was a James. I have Ann 1818, John 1821-1901, Ellin 1823, Elizabeth 1825 (prob died young) William 1828-1860, Thomas 1830,Elizabeth Jane 1833, Benjamin 1835, Joseph Edwards (sic)1837 and James 1840.

Yes, there is a parallel family with similar first names. They are related I am sure, but have not worked out how. William Sayle says in a letter I have had no news of Charles, but of course doesn't specify who Charles is.

I have more biographical information from the Manx Museum site that when William Sayle died "his further descendants went to New Zealand and the farm (Larivane) was finally sold in 1930" . I wish I could find his will to work out who they might be.

OC

[Macbev]

John seems to have married Emma Jane Cooper in 1858. There were several children. Emma died in 1904. They spent most of their married life in Yarra Glen,Victoria where he was a grazier and John's obit in Trove indicates he had been in the colony since the 1840s. Since he is shown on the 1841 census with his parents on the Isle of Man, I guess he was not the John Sale, b. abt 1819, I o M, who was transported to NSW.


Sorry if this is an unwanted digression...but I've not been able to pick up Benny so far.

[Olde Crone]

Macbev, snap! I just found that info.

I am satisfied that my Benjamin is the one Kate found returning to the IoM in 1859 and that he stayed the rest of his life in IoM so the search is off for him but thankyou for looking.

(Diverted by reading wiki trees, 21 children born in 10 years of marriage, haha.Nothing changes.)

OC

[Macbev]

I have more biographical information from the Manx Museum site that when William Sayle died "his further descendants went to New Zealand and the farm (Larivane) was finally sold in 1930" . I wish I could find his will to work out who they might be.

OC


Are you aware of this isle of man.com thread?
http://www.isle-of-man.com/genealogy/messageboard/index.pl/md/read/id/542188

[Olde Crone]

MacBev

Yes, saw that thread, thankyou. I think William Sayles' will is too recent to have been transcribed and of course, John would have inherited the farm by law, so it is John's will I need to find, in Australia. I have found various deeds of sale, he ((John) sold off bits of the farm during his lifetime and I'm surprised there was any left after his death.

Does Australia operate the law of primogeniture on property do you know, please? John died in 1901 if that makes a difference.

OC

[Macbev]

You can view John Sayle's will here
[/URL]
[url]https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/61315/07591-p0002-000324-0610-00000?pid=1422087&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=CRL7242&_phstart=successSource (https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/61315/07591-p0002-000315-0740-00000?pid=1270366&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=CRL7240&_phstart=successSource)
if you do not have the Ancestry sub that will allow you to see it, I am happy to copy and send to you, if you can provide me with an address.
i don't think primogeniture laws apply in Australia.

[Olde Crone]

Ooh, you little star macbev! That would be really lovely, thankyou so much.

Sending you a pm.

OC

[Macbev]

Sent....probate and will, in two batches

[Olde Crone]

Thankyou so much for that! The will has thrown up several queries, haha, including the names of children I didn't know he hd. I did wonder if he had been married before when I was researching him.

Also, I hadn't realised that his farm in Australia was called Larivane and I think it must be this Larivane the biography refers to when it says it was finally sold by descendants, not the farm in the I oM.

Lots of lovely info to get my teeth into, I'm so happy! Can't wait for the library to reopen so I can print it off for my records.

OC

[Macbev]

Are you able to access Australian Ancestry records? There is a good deal more relating to the birth of the children, who seem to have scattered around the various States in Australia. If you can't access the records, I am happy to look them up for you. You may also get good info if you use Trove (free digitised Aus newspapers) https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/


OH has a Gould ancestor who came to Aus from Bucks ca 1850, also seeking his fortune on the Bendigo goldfields and ended up scraping a living on a smallish farm, which was likewise named after the English estate of his grandfather....lots of English emigrants clung to the memories of their homeland in that manner.

[Macbev]

Yes, there was a James. I have Ann 1818, John 1821-1901, Ellin 1823, Elizabeth 1825 (prob died young) William 1828-1860, Thomas 1830,Elizabeth Jane 1833, Benjamin 1835, Joseph Edwards (sic)1837 and James 1840.OC


William Sayle became a butcher. He married Matilda Scott in 1859 (she has an interesting history which can be followed on Trove). He died of pulmonary phthisis at his home in Blackwood st North Melbourne aged 32 years. I have found his will, if you would like that sent.
Thomas (probably) died in a mining accident in 1870 near Egerton Victoria. The news report stated he had relations in Ballarat, and that 'he is brother to Mr John Sayle, squatter, Lillydaye, nr Melbourne.'

James (possibly) died 1905 (suffering from hydatids) in the Berima District Hospital in NSW. Described as a tramp, he was buried as a pauper. The NSW death reg states his father was William, his mother, Ann.


John's issue:
1. Thomas Maunsell seems to have been in a droving partnership with his brother Reginald. He was declared insolvent in Palmerston (now Darwin) in 1888. Reginald took all the horses, outfit and cash to the Kimberley, Western Australia, leaving Thomas destitute. This may have been a clever ploy, as I later picked them up gold mining in Mt Magnet WA. Thomas must have returned East as he d.14.09.1943 at 50 Bowen st Camberwell
2. Reginald Athol was farewelled from Mt Magnet in 1900, heading East on the train. The newspaper said he started out overlanding as a drover, from the Clarence river NSW taking cattle through Queensland, into the Northern Territory, then on to the Kimberley gold rush, the other gold rushes in the NW of WA, then to Mt Magnet. He must have returned to WA as he married Mary Jean Jeans 4.10.1905 at Fremantle. He died 16.07 1944 in Perth, WA. No children mentioned in the obit
3. Edith Ann married Jonathan Mackintosh Brooks 1905. She died 1943 Victoria

4. Mabel Laidlaw d. 18.06.1905 Palmerston (Darwin) N.T.
5. Gilbert Cooper m1. Jessy Janet Thompson17.02.1899 ; div.1905. Details of divorce reveal Gilbert spent two years and five months in the NT from 1899, where he worked as a butcher.
m2. Isabel Flora Stanley 1916 Victoria
d. 1941 Victoria

[Olde Crone]

Thanks again Macbev. I had found some of that but not all, I didn't find enough detail to be sure William was the butcher, nor that Thomas the drover was the right one. Yes, I would love William's will, thankyou!

I wonder why Thomas Maunsell doesn't show as John's son on any of the published biographies? There is only mention of "an unnamed son" which suggested a neonatal death to me.

Poor James. Wonder what went wrong there? Drink I suppose.

Thankyou again, I'm really enjoying myself! Ages since I've expanded this family, 15 years or more.

OC

[Macbev]

I can't be absolutely sure William the butcher is your man...but what I have found so far seems pretty convincing to me. Victoria Death Index has:
William Sayle;b. abt 1829;age: 31;Father:William; Mother: Ann Cleator;Reg yr:1860;Reg Place: Victoria; Reg No:10167

The newspaper states: On the 29th ult., at his home, Blackwood street, North Melbourne, of phthisis pulmonatis, Mr William Sayle, aged 32 years.
The electoral rolls show William Sayle, Blackwood street as a butcher, which is confirmed by the will. The will also makes mention of his brother John Sayle.



The Australian birth index does show a child born to John and Emma Jane in 1859, but it is not named - I thought it was likely a still birth, or early death. As best as I can understand the index, John's children, confirmed by his will:
1. Unnamed 1859 Hawthorn Victoria (MMN Cooper)

2. Edith Anne 1861, Victoria (MMN Cooper)

3. Thomas M(aunsell) 1864 Moama NSW (no MMN)

4. Percy Howard b abt 1863 Victoria (MMN Callingham)
d 1864 Moama NSW
5. Reginald Athol 1866 Moama NSW (no MMN)

6. Mabel Laidlaw 1867 Victoria (MMN Callingham)

7. John Lee 1869 Lilydale (MMN Callingham)

8. Gilbert Cooper , 1873 Lilydale (MMN Callingham)



I don't understand why Emma Jane is sometimes a Callingham and sometimes a Cooper. A nice little problem for you to solve.
John Sayle's employment as a stock agent for a large scale grazier in Victoria may account for his family's movement between NSW and Victoria, as shown by the birth places of his children.

The screen shots I took of William the butcher's will are pretty fuzzy. I'll try to get a better image before I send them off.


I've enjoyed snooping around your family too. Life in lockdown is pretty boring!

[Olde Crone]

Yes, I agree it's definitely my William, I didn't find all that info to link him to his parents.

I wonder if Thomas and Reginald were missed off the biography because there was no mother's name so the researcher couldn't be sure they were the same family. I also wonder if the researcher made the same mistake as me and assumed Palmerston was the one in New Zealand, ha ha and that is why "further descendants went to New Zealand" . I never was any good at geography.

OC

[Macbev]

I also wonder if the researcher made the same mistake as me and assumed Palmerston was the one in New Zealand
OC
Easy mistake to make, if you were not aware that Darwin in the Northern Territory was originally called Palmerston. Plenty of Australians don't know that.

The land now occupied by the Northern Territory was part of colonial NSW from 1825 to 1863, except for a brief time from February to December 1846, when it was part of the short-lived colony of North Australia. The Northern Territory was part of South Australia from 1863 to 1911, then became the Territory we have today.
Consequently, the records relating to the area could be in any one of a number of archives.

It is possible the biographer was unaware that Reginald and Thomas headed into Western Australia..... we become invisible to folk in the Eastern States, even today :D

[Olde Crone]

Thankyou for William's will, Macbev. I appreciate it.

Something to do today, hurray, that isn't sudoku.

OC

[Macbev]

Do you know if Joseph Sayle returned home? I am a little persuaded by a coronial inquest into the death of a Joseph Sayle in Tallangatta, Victoria, in1889, although the suggested age is a little out. I guess I am influenced by a reference to a James Sayle also in Tallangatta in 1883 - but that could be pure coincidence.
I have the coroner's report if you want it.

[Olde Crone]

MacBev

The only one who went home to IoM was Benjamin as far as I can tell so the Joseph you found sounds a good bet to me! Thank you.again.

OC

[garstonite]

I am just curious - or nosey - take your pick - 1841 census - did they live in a Guesthouse ??

Household
Role
Sex
Age
Birthplace
William Sayle
Male
45
Isle Of Man
Ann Sayle
Female
40
Isle Of Man
John Sayle
Male
20
Isle Of Man
William Sayle
Male
13
Isle Of Man
Thomas Sayle
Male
10
Isle Of Man
Benjamin Sayle
Male
4
Isle Of Man
Joseph Sayle
Male
3
Isle Of Man
James Sayle
Male
0
Isle Of Man
Ellin Sayle
Female
18
Isle Of Man
.................................................. ................................................ are these lodgers ?
Daniel Grimshaw
Male
10
England
Robert Kissack
Male
15
Isle Of Man
Ann Edwards
Female
23
Isle Of Man
William Edwards
Male
2
England
Thomas Edwards
Male
0
England
Catharine Caine
Female
35
Isle Of Man

[Olde Crone]

Allan, no, all family! They lived on a farm which had been in the Sayle family for hundreds of years.

OC

[garstonite]

ah - right - explains it - thanks xx

[garstonite]

obviously - in Liverpool there are loads of Sayle family - IOM being in between Liverpool and Ireland - I know a couple personally - is it an IOM surname or Viking origin ?

[Olde Crone]

Allan

I think it is an IoM surname but possibly originally from Ireland. The Liverpool Sayles are loosely connected to the IoM families. I've traced mine back to 1698 through the farm records but they were there earlier than that. They are a nightmare really as they repeated names all down the generations, plus the fact that the vicar just wrote what he heard, so the Manx surnames have fifty different ways of spelling.

OC