Verifying if Census belongs to my family [Archive] - Genealogists' Forum

NickJarvis

11-04-20, 12:14

Hi

Wondering if someone can help. I am getting the hang of things but I don't want to make assumptions.

My great granddad was David Jones born abt 1863 in Ruabon Wales. He went on to marry a Mary Ann Potter (obvsiously my g grandmum) and Mary Ann was also born in Ruabon (b. 1866). I am doing ok with the Potter side (not great but ok) but having difficulty with David's side of the family.

Ancestry seems to be pointing me to David's parents being David Jones (b. 1835) and Ann Jones (b. 1830). Ann's maiden name might have been Phillips (if I have the right census). It is these census's that are throwing me...

If I look at a particular 1871 census then all looks good. But how can I verify this is the correct family? If I then look at the 1861 census (this is where I got that maybe Ann Jone's maiden name was phillips) then again all looks good. Other trees do match but I have been unable to get hold of the tree owners. My dad and Auntie have no idea, so how can I verify that these census records do indded belong to my David and Ann Jones?

I also use GRO and freeBMD which have helped me a great deal.

Thanks for any help. I am getting quite familiar with the whole process but still learning.
Nick

Nell

11-04-20, 12:35

Do you have David and Ann's marriage?

ElizabethHerts

11-04-20, 12:36

It sounds that you don't have the marriage certificate for David Jones. I would always advise sourcing it as it has information you need.

FindMyPast have Denbighshire PRs.

First name(s) David
Last name Jones
Age 23
Birth year 1863
Event year 1886
Banns year -
Marriage year 1886
Marriage date 06 Feb 1886
Marriage place Rhosllanerchrugog
Father's first name(s) William
Father's last name Jones
Spouse's first name(s) Mary Ann
Spouse's last name Potter
Spouse's age 20
Spouse's birth year 1866
Spouse's father's last name Potter
Spouse's father's first name(s) Richard
County Denbighshire
Country Wales
Event Marriage
Page 91
Record set Denbighshire Marriages And Banns
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Collections from Wales, Great Britain

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FWAL%2F4631572%2F00093&parentid=GBPRS%2FM%2F880065169%2F1

I have posted the link to the image.

David's father was William Jones collier.
Mary Ann's father was Richard Potter collier.

David was 23.
Mary Ann was 20.

Phoenix

11-04-20, 12:38

Hi Nick, welcome to the forum!

First off, do you have David b c 1863's marriage certificate to confirm that his father was called David?

Also, were ther any useful witnesses (ie family members)

ElizabethHerts

11-04-20, 12:42

The marriage was at Rhosllanerchrugog, not far from Ruabon.

There is this baptism there:

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FWAL%2F4631570%2F00034&parentid=GBPRS%2FB%2F879251940%2F1

First name(s) David
Last name Jones
Birth year 1862
Birth date ? ? 1862
Baptism year 1862
Baptism date 13 Jul 1862
Place Rhosllanerchrugog
County Denbighshire
Country Wales
Father's first name(s) William
Mother's first name(s) Sarah
Page 32
Record set Denbighshire Baptisms

Phoenix

11-04-20, 12:46

A witness was Absalom.

This looks like the family in 1881:

William Jones Head Married Male 50 1831 Coal Miner Denbighshire, Wales
Sarah Jones Wife Married Female 40 1841 - Denbighshire, Wales
David Jones Son Single Male 19 1862 Coal Miner Denbighshire, Wales
Absalom Jones Son Single Male 16 1865 Coal Miner Denbighshire, Wales
Mary Jones Daughter Single Female 15 1866 Scholar Denbighshire, Wales
William Thos Jones Son Single Male 4 1877 Scholar Denbighshire, Wales

Phoenix

11-04-20, 12:49

Note that it is quite likely that this Sarah is a second wife unless a lot of intervening children died.

ElizabethHerts

11-04-20, 12:50

Here are GRO birth registrations for the right period with mothers' maiden names on the right:

JONES, DAVID JONES
GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 11B Page 334
JONES, DAVID JONES
GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 11B Page 343
JONES, DAVID JONES
GRO Reference: 1861 S Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 11B Page 282
JONES, DAVID BELLIS
GRO Reference: 1862 J Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 11B Page 342
JONES, DAVID DAVIES
GRO Reference: 1862 J Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 11B Page 355
JONES, DAVID PHILLIPS
GRO Reference: 1862 J Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 11B Page 347
JONES, DAVID ROBERTS
GRO Reference: 1862 J Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 11B Page 318
JONES, DAVID ROGERS
GRO Reference: 1862 J Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 11B Page 341
JONES, DAVID ROGERS
GRO Reference: 1862 S Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 11B Page 319
JONES, DAVID JONES

I looked for marriages between William Jones and Sarah with any of these surnames.

I found this:
First name(s) William
Last name Jones
Age 26
Birth year 1835
Event year 1861
Banns year -
Marriage year 1861
Marriage date 21 Dec 1861
Marriage place Rhosllanerchrugog
Father's first name(s) David
Father's last name Jones
Spouse's first name(s) Sarah
Spouse's last name Bellis
Spouse's age 20
Spouse's birth year 1841
Spouse's father's last name Bellis
Spouse's father's first name(s) Absalom
County Denbighshire

ElizabethHerts

11-04-20, 12:52

It looks as though

William Jones married Sarah Bellis, whose father was Absalom.

The parish is the same as before.

William's father was David Jones.

ElizabethHerts

11-04-20, 12:55

1851 Census
Street Rhos, Morton Above, Wrexham, Denbighshire, Wales
Absolom Bellis Head Married Male 40 1811 Coal Miner Ruabon, Denbighshire, Wales
Martha Bellis Wife Married Female 35 1816 - Ruabon, Denbighshire, Wales
Sarah Bellis Daughter - Female 9 1842 At Home Sert Ruabon, Denbighshire, Wales
Mary Bellis Daughter - Female 4 1847 At Home Sert Ruabon, Denbighshire, Wales

Phoenix

11-04-20, 12:56

Here is Absalom junior births:

JONES, ABSALOM BENNETT
GRO Reference: 1863 J Quarter in DUDLEY Volume 06C Page 81
JONES, ABSALOM BELLIS
GRO Reference: 1864 M Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 11B Page 333

ElizabethHerts

11-04-20, 12:58

The Bellis parents' grave is here:

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/197313544/martha-bellis

Phoenix

11-04-20, 12:59

I note too that Ancestry have a tree with Absalom junior in it. Might be worth contacting them, as they may have recent history in common with your family

NickJarvis

11-04-20, 13:02

Wow!! Thanks so much to all the replies :) - I cannot believe how many have replied and how quickly you have all replied. Thanks so much :)

I will digest all the awesome info already supplied so far in this thread. Thanks for the links too. As a few have already said, I did not realise the importance of a marriage certificate. I thought all it would say would be mums maiden name.

Again, a huge thank-you to you all. This should keep me busy today.

Cheers
Nick

ElizabethHerts

11-04-20, 13:05

Absalom's burial:

First name(s) Absalom
Last name Bellis
Age 67
Birth year 1815
Burial year 1882
Burial date 16 May 1882
Place Rhosllanerchrugog
Parish Rhosllanerchrugog
County Denbighshire
Country Wales
Page 328
Archive year range -
Record set Denbighshire Burials

The image is on FindMyPast.

ElizabethHerts

11-04-20, 13:15

I don't think I gave the link to the Jones-Bellis marriage:

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FWAL%2F4631572%2F00025&parentid=GBPRS%2FM%2F880065032%2F1

Nell

11-04-20, 13:20

Nick

As you've discovered, this is a friendly and helpful site! Civil registration began in 1837 and my experience is that early certs are a bit vague but moving on in the century they become more detailed. Early certs might just say "of full age" whereas later ones will give ages. Of course it helps if you can check with other sources. Certificates and censuses and parish registers are written by humans and what is recorded isn't always true.

JBee

11-04-20, 13:34

Nick - always get the certificates - don't assume anything lol. Verify everything even your bdm parents certificates - there could be unexpected surprises there that lead you down the wrong path.

I'd made an assumption thinking I knew the name of a direct ancestor only to find on a marriage certificate obtained years later and after lots of research that I'd followed the wrong family altogether.

ElizabethHerts

11-04-20, 13:35

Absalom Jones birth and baptism:

JONES, ABSALOM BELLIS
GRO Reference: 1864 M Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 11B Page 333

First name(s) Absalom
Last name Jones
Birth year 1865
Birth date ? ? 1865
Baptism year 1865
Baptism date 10 Jan 1865
Place Rhosllanerchrugog
County Denbighshire
Country Wales
Father's first name(s) William
Mother's first name(s) Sarah
Page 40
Record set Denbighshire Baptisms

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FWAL%2F4631570%2F00042&parentid=GBPRS%2FB%2F879252009%2F1

ElizabethHerts

11-04-20, 14:37

Absalom Bellis married Martha Dodd in Q4 1846 in the Wrexham Registration District. Volume 27 page 456

However, Sarah seems to have been born c. 1842.
I can't find a birth registration for her under Bellis or Dodd.

A Martha Dodd was baptised on Christmas Day 1816 at Ruabon, parents Robert and Mary, but it's too early to claim her as yours.

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FWAL%2F4225688%2F00079&parentid=GBPRS%2FB%2F879009075%2F1

You need to buy the marriage certificate for Martha Dodd and Absalom Bellis, details as above, to find out who her father was first.

ElizabethHerts

11-04-20, 15:12

Sarah Jones, maiden name Bellis, made a will:

JONES Sarah
15 Dec 1888
The Will of Sarah Jones late of Market-street Rhosllanerchrugog
in the Parish of Ruabon in the County of Denbigh Widow who died 9 April 1888 at Market-street was proved at St. Asaph by Thomas Bellis of Market-street Shopkeeper the Brother and Benjamin Pritchard of Drefechan Farm in the said Parish Farmer the Executors.

You can order it for £1.50.

I'll post the link in a bit.

EDIT: I have to say, I'm not convinced this is the correct woman yet.

A Thomas Bellis died in 1901. He was 82.
Deaths Jun 1901 (>99%)
Bellis Thomas 82 Wrexham 11b 177

He left a will:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1904/32858_609838_0668-00096?pid=13253181&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DBOW15542%26_phstart%3DsuccessSour ce%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D1904%26g sfn%3DThomas%26gsln%3DBellis%26cp%3D0%26new%3D1%26 rank%3D1%26uidh%3D9p3%26redir%3Dfalse%26msT%3D1%26 gss%3Dangs-d%26pcat%3D36%26fh%3D9%26h%3D13253181%26recoff%3D% 26ml_rpos%3D10%26queryId%3Dbeb7716faa6f11bc3da5bbf 54cccc404&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=beb7716faa6f11bc3da5bbf54cccc404&usePUB=true&_phsrc=BOW15542&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

He lived at Market Street. However, he would be too old to be the brother to the Sarah Jones maiden name Bellis in your tree.

ElizabethHerts

11-04-20, 15:16

This looks like the burial:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FWAL%2F4631562%2F00009&parentid=GBPRS%2FD%2F878199282%2F1

NickJarvis

11-04-20, 15:32

Thanks very much Elizabeth et al. I have learnt so much already just from this thread.

Is it worth me paying to join findmypast or does it have the exact same info as ancestry.com, for which I am a fully paid member.

Thanks
Nick

Nell

11-04-20, 15:35

I have had subs for Ancestry an for Find My Past this year. I tend to prefer Ancestry as I've used it longest (over 25 years!) and am more familiar with it, but I do find that FMP sometimes finds records I can't find on Ancestry. You don't say where you are Nick, but lots of public libraries allow you to access family history sites free if you'r a member of the library.

I'm sure other members have better info about the differences between the sites. I use Ancestry most and I still use familysearch quite a bit too.

kiterunner

11-04-20, 15:39

It doesn't have exactly the same information as Ancestry. Each of them has some databases which the other doesn't have, in addition to many which they both have. But Findmypast does have the Welsh parish registers, which Ancestry doesn't have, and which you might find very useful. Many local libraries have Findmypast subscriptions and I believe some are making them available to their members to use from home at the moment. Also you should be able to have a 14-day free trial of Findmypast if you haven't had one already, but make sure to turn off auto-renewal, sorry I can't post a link but just Google for Findmypast free trial and it should come up for you.

ElizabethHerts

11-04-20, 15:40

Nick, if you have Welsh ancestry, Find My Past is a lot better than Ancestry.
It has a lot of parish registers with images.
As you can see from this thread, it has Denbighshire parish records.

However, be aware that if your ancestors were non-conformists they won't feature in the parish records.

ElizabethHerts

11-04-20, 15:40

Snap, Kate.

Phoenix

11-04-20, 15:42

It's horses for courses, Nick.
Both sites have all the censuses and other databases in common.
Find My Past has the British Newspaper Archive records, which can prove very useful.
The different sites have exclusive use to records of different record offices.
Ancestry is very good for London/Surrey
Find My Past is essential for Devon.
I find Find My Past easier to search, but that's a personal thing.
On both sites you can search without paying a sub, just not see the image, which would give you an idea of what is available and what suits you.

ElizabethHerts

11-04-20, 15:45

A Martha Dodd comes up in the criminal registers on Find My Past.

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=TNA%2FCCC%2FHO27%2F01350436

First name(s) Martha
Last name Dodd
Age 27
Birth year 1817
Year 1844
Session date 27 Jul 1844
Court Denbigh
Archive
The National Archives
Source Home Office: Criminal Registers, England And Wales, 1805-1892
Series HO27

This person was imprisoned for 3 months for larceny.

NickJarvis

11-04-20, 16:01

ElizabethHerts

11-04-20, 16:05

Brilliant, thank-you all again. Lost of my family were born in the Wrexham area and therefore very welsh so I will see what FMP can also offer.

Elizabeth mentioned that Sarah Bellis was born in 1842 although her parents didn't get married until 1846. I am assuming that back then this was almost unheard of, and certainly frowned upon? I have ordered the marriage certificate for Absalom and Martha.

I wonder what female prisons were like back then.

Thanks again
Nick

Illegitimacy was very common, in fact, Nick, but carried a stigma with it. The shame was all the mother's, unfortunately.

If that was your Martha, perhaps she was in straitened circumstances being a single mother.

Nell

11-04-20, 16:27

Nick
In my research I've found that yes, there was a lot of scandal about illegitimacy, but mainly later in the 19th century and in the towns. In small villages it was quite common for people to have a baby before marriage or to produce one less than 9 months after the wedding. Much would depend on whether the woman in question was supported by the father or reliant on parish relief.

I've got one relative whose occupation is given as "bastard" on one census, when he was with his grandparents. Another relative in a different branch of the family, also with grandparent, was called a "love child". So attitudes varied.

If you factor in the number of pregnancies that would end in miscarriage or stillbirth too the rate of pregnancy in non-married women was probably quite high.

My gt gt grandmother had her first child baptised 3 weeks after her wedding (in a register office in 1852). Her first name was Honor!

kiterunner

11-04-20, 16:32

Elizabeth mentioned that Sarah Bellis was born in 1842 although her parents didn't get married until 1846. I am assuming that back then this was almost unheard of, and certainly frowned upon? I have ordered the marriage certificate for Absalom and Martha.

Not as unusual as you might think.

NickJarvis

11-04-20, 16:35

haha - thanks all. Another eye-opener.

Cheers :)

ElizabethHerts

11-04-20, 17:13

Richard William Jones baptism
22nd April 1888 Rhosllanerchrugog

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FWAL%2F4631571%2F00026&parentid=GBPRS%2FB%2F879252693%2F1

ElizabethHerts

11-04-20, 17:30

Burial of Richard William Jones aged 14

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FWAL%2F4631573%2F00084&parentid=GBPRS%2FD%2F878184624%2F1

ElizabethHerts

11-04-20, 17:36

Mary Ann Jones died young, which explains why the children were with their grandparents on the 1901 Census.

She was buried 12th August 1893 aged 27 at Rhosllanerchrugog.

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FWAL%2F4631562%2F00079&parentid=GBPRS%2FD%2F878199836%2F1

NO! Not your ancestor! See my later posts.
This is why we check, check and check again. The age etc fits but it isn't her. She appears on the 1911 Census with her family

NickJarvis

11-04-20, 18:37

Thank-you Elizabeth. I think this is where I get a little stuck. Hadn't even thought if a child is with their grandparents it could be because a parent has died.

Cheers

ElizabethHerts

11-04-20, 18:52

Do you know what other children David and Mary Ann Jones had?

I have Richard William, Elizabeth and David so far.

ElizabethHerts

11-04-20, 19:03

David's baptism:

First name(s) David
Last name Jones
Birth year 1891
Birth date ? ? 1891
Baptism year 1891
Baptism date 04 Oct 1891
Place Rhosllanerchrugog
County Denbighshire
Country Wales
Father's first name(s) David
Mother's first name(s) Mary Ann
Page 44
Record set Denbighshire Baptisms

On FMP

ElizabethHerts

11-04-20, 19:10

Ok, Now I can prove to you how easy it is to get research wrong!

Mary Ann Jones didn't die when I stated!

I have found the family on the 1911 Census and more children.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2353/rg14_34013_0169_06?pid=1065635&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D2353%26h%3D1065635%26ti d%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DBOW15557% 26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=BOW15557&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.222470363.1325075306.1586591677-1874943922.1559313263

Name Age
David Jones 48
Mary Ann Jones 45
David Jones 19
Reginald Victor Jones 10
Richard Wm Jones 5
Anita Jones 4

David and Mary Ann have had 12 children, 8 still alive, 4 of whom have died.
They have been married 25 years. They now have another Richard William.

JONES, ANITA POTTER
GRO Reference: 1906 D Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 11B Page 227