welsh births or census

[Qwackers]

happy new year to all . I am searching for a Richard Cliff born in heol galed in Camarthen Wales around 1835/36 . Can anyone help ? thanks

[kiterunner]

Can you give us any more information that you already have about him, please, Qwackers? Such as when and where he died, who he married, etc.

[kiterunner]

Here is some info on Heol-galed, Carmarthenshire:
https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/placenames/recordedname/d6862c2e-d424-440a-82cc-33c39c44608e

[Qwackers]

Hi , yes richard , married a ellen Blackburn in 1859 in Preston . 1960 census. Shows Ruchard and wife ellen with children joseph 5 and Richard 1 if that's any help . it states he was born in hell galed . thanks

[Qwackers]

that should be heol it's this corrective words it's a pain .

[kiterunner]

This must be the family you mean in 1861:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8767/LANRG9_3132_3135-0116?pid=9625814&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ctf20602&_phstart=successSource

Robert Cliff Head Mar 24 Basket Maker Lancaster Liverpool
Ellen do Wife Mar 23 Housekeeper " Preston
Joseph do Son 5 " Preston
Richard do do 1 " Preston.

In 1871:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7619/LANRG10_4210_4212-0313?pid=25160567&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ctf20604&_phstart=successSource
Richard Cliff Head Mar 39 Basket Maker Lancashire Liverpool
Ellen " Wife " 34 Cotton Drawin Tenter " Preston
Joseph " Son Unm 14 " Card Tenter Unemployed " "
Richard " " 11 Scholar " "
Emma " Daur 7 " " ".

Not sure where you got Heol Galed from?

[Merry]

So, you mean this census, below? The head of the family is recorded as Robert instead of Richard. Pity you didn't mention that in your post!

1861
56 Back Lane, Preston, Lancashire

Robert Cliff head married 24 basket maker born Lancashire, Liverpool
Ellen Cliff wife married 25 house keeper b Lancashire Preston
Joseph Cliff son 5 b Lancs, Preston
Richard Cliff son 1 b Lancs Preston

I'm not sure how you made Camarthen, Heol-galed out of Lancashire Liverpool??

1851 and 1871 both say Liverpool too, so now I'm wondering if your original post should be referring to someone else?

[kiterunner]

Richard Cliff married Ellen Blackburn in 1859, Preston Register Office or Registrar Attended. So you may need to order a copy of the marriage cert to get the name of Richard's father for certain.

But this looks likely for his family in 1851:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8860/LANHO107_2182_2183-0561?pid=12881737&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ctf20609&_phstart=successSource
Richard Cliff Head Mar 42 Basket Maker Liverpool
Elizabeth Do Wife Mar 34 do
Richd do Son 15 Basket Maker do
Margt do Daur 6 do
Willm do Son 3 do
Benjamin do Son 6 mo do.

It looks as though Elizabeth was Richard sr's second wife - Richard Cliff married Elizabeth Burton in 1843 in Liverpool. (The GRO birth index gives Burton as Benjamin's mother's maiden name.)

[Merry]

lol Kite, you weren't even online when I started my last post! Snap re Heol-galed!!

[Merry]

It looks as though Elizabeth was Richard sr's second wife - Richard Cliff married Elizabeth Burton in 1843 in Liverpool. (The GRO birth index gives Burton as Benjamin's mother's maiden name.)

If this is Richard's son Richard's baptism:

Richard Cliff 6 Jul 1834 Liverpool, St Peter Richard, Ellen, father's occ basket maker

then this is likely the marriage of the parents:

Richard Cliff 19 Jan 1829 Liverpool , St Nicholas Ellen Morron or Morrow - groom's occ basket maker.

and Ellen's death:

CLIFF, ELLEN 28
GRO Reference: 1839 D Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 20 Page 265

and burial:

Ellen Cliff bur 30 Nov 1839 (transcript says 2 Dec 1839) Necropolis (Low Hill Cemetery) Liverpool. Abode Thurlow St, age 28, cause of death childbirth.

I'm thinking Ellen's surname may have been Moran or Morran, rather than Morrow etc as there are two children registered with one or other of these mmns between 1837 and 1839, one being Rachel who has a baptism (and burial) in 1837, parents Richard and Ellen, address Thurlow St, father's occ basket maker. The other is William (the 'childbirth' baby) who I think may have died the same Q as his birth (not fully checked - where is his burial?), but I don't have time to post all the details now.

[Qwackers]

the census i saw ,was a 1861 and it definetly had richard and wife ellen and children joseph and Richard . it said he was born in the place as i stated i i wrote it down as i saw it . he was definetly said he was born in heol galed . the rest in preston they lived in back Lane preston .

[Qwackers]

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7RY-Z5F, I found the 1861 census with them on in Back lane Preston and it's says born heol galed . I can send you screenshots in a private message if you like .

[Merry]

This is part of the image for 55 and 56 Back Lane. The bottom four entries are for the Cliff family. The last three three say Lancaster Preston (Ellen, Joseph and Richard jr) and the one above those says Lancashire Liverpool (Richard senr, listed here as Robert).

https://rcqapw.db.files.1drv.com/y4mg_aQhHfVj-QjVgVOeVE5UHGX_H3FnOrUT5AYDjsO_GOLt8qZpt4gh_b9KIfI diAb4PuN1s3jt5Y1g_B9h3Ux86pH9iD7KMmO68qrKSnE0cvEvN Lcb8GehS1fGvQBNPN79A-k1W-HRFD39Yy28LycoKGwDreq4tLpuMiaQGWhLKxzcWhNOnvpwFEoN lz9fIQrVQewHuvC76SS83FLFFs3XA?width=291&height=314&cropmode=none

[Qwackers]

hi i knew i had seen heol galed .

[kiterunner]

Right, it has just been mistranscribed by FamilySearch although they did at least get the county right.

[Qwackers]

I've followed John Cliff ancestry back as follows John Cliff Preston born 1926 . father Gordon Cliff Born around 1898 preston Father Richard Cliff born approx 1859 Preston father Richard Cliff 1836 /37 i haven't seen anyone born in Liverpool when i did all these . As i believe all the cliffs were from around the Preston Area .

[Qwackers]

I am also following the female side , but it is taking a lot more time .

[Merry]

I've followed John Cliff ancestry back as follows John Cliff Preston born 1926 . father Gordon Cliff Born around 1898 preston Father Richard Cliff born approx 1859 Preston father Richard Cliff 1836 /37 i haven't seen anyone born in Liverpool when i did all these . As i believe all the cliffs were from around the Preston Area .

Have you looked at the image I posted #13? Kiterunner says FS have mis-transcribed the birthplace (though they transcribed the county correctly), but it clearly says Liverpool. Says the same in 1851 and 1871.

[Qwackers]

yes , so richard born in 1836/7 was born in liverpool . i will mark that down now , sorry i was busy before . so the heol galed was mistranscribed . on family search .
thanks

[Merry]

Yes, but it did say Lancashire and not Carmarthenshire, so that should have let you know it was likely something was wrong.

[Merry]

yes , so richard born in 1836/7 was born in liverpool .

See post #10.

[Qwackers]

yes i agree as i have only looked at family search and that's wrong , i will email them to say they need to correct it . thanks

[Qwackers]

hi , I see the first name keeps changing from richard to robert i suppose those were both of his first names .i think Ancestry is better than family search. as i've found transcriptions in the past not very good .

[Qwackers]

I ve got a copy of the 1911 census , with the cliff family , Richard Cliff Head age 51 with elizabeth cliff ,they have 8 children , all the family born in Preston .

[Merry]

hi , I see the first name keeps changing from richard to robert i suppose those were both of his first names .

No, I don't think so and I wouldn't say it 'keeps changing' either.

His name is Richard at baptism, marriage and 1841, 1851 and 1871 census records, all of which are already mentioned in this thread. At the moment it's just the 1861 census that has him written as Robert, which may be an error on the part of the enumerator copying his name incorrectly from the householder form to the census folio, or not being able to read Richard's first name on the first form.

Here's another place he is Richard (Emma is on the 1871 census record with her parents, see post #6):

Baptism: 23 Oct 1863 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
Emma Cliff - [Child] of Richard Cliff & Ellen
Abode: Back Bridge St
Occupation: Basket Maker
Baptised by: Thos Johnson Curate
Register: Baptisms 1863 - 1865, Page 152, Entry 1212
Source: LDS Film 93990

[Merry]

I'm wondering if this is Joseph Cliff, as he was born before Richard and Ellen were married:

BLACKBURN, WILLIAM JOSEPH mmn -
GRO Reference: 1856 J Quarter in PRESTON Volume 08E Page 499

There are two transcriptions of this child's baptism (I haven't found an image anywhere as yet)

Baptism: 18 Jun 1856 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
William Joseph Blackburn - [Child] of Ellen Blackburn
Abode: Sedgwick St
Occupation: Carder
Baptised by: W. Walling
Register: Baptisms 1856 - 1858, Page 123, Entry 980
Source: LDS Film 93989

Baptism: 18 Jun 1856 All Saints, Preston, Lancashire, England
William Joseph Blackburn - [Child] of Ellen Blackburn
Abode: mother of Sedgwick Street
Occupation: chandray tenter
Notes: [no father listed]
Baptised by: W. Walling
Register: Baptisms 1848 - 1866, Page 83, Entry 657
Source: FHL Film 1544765

[kiterunner]

This is Richard born 1834 in 1901:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7814/LANRG13_3953_3954-0538?pid=25375863&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ctf20704&_phstart=successSource

17 Back Lane (Lodging House), Preston
Richard Cliff Boarder Widr 59 Basket Maker Lanc Liverpool.

[Qwackers]

hi yes i agree ,she could have had these children before she was married .

[Qwackers]

yes on the online clerks it usually states father , so it looks like she had him before she married .

[Merry]

hi yes i agree ,she could have had these children before she was married .

Are you referring to Ellen Blackburn? There are only posts on this thread about one child born before her marriage, so which other children do you mean?

[Qwackers]

hi , yes i'm referring to ellen .

[Merry]

she could have had these children before she was married

Which children?

[Qwackers]

sorry merry , joseph . it was the wrong verb ,lol

[Qwackers]

hi ,I found a birth in Liverpool for Richard cliff born 1808 christened 1812 along side a Thomas cliff born that year . Mother Rachel miller . do you think this is correct ? thanks

[Merry]

Probably. You should buy a copy of Richard's second marriage certificate to check his father's name and occupation, to be a bit more certain.

[Qwackers]

hi ,merry .would it be ok to get the first marriage certificate of richards to ellen blackburn , it possibly would show the fathers name ? thanks

[Merry]

That's the wrong Richard isn't it?

I thought you wanted to know if the 1812 baptism was for the Richard born about 1809 who married twice. His second marriage was after 1837 so that's the one you need. If the details of his father on the marriage cert match the details of the father on the 1812 baptism then you have the right baptism record.