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If a relative died in 1853 and if the relative died in Lancashire and if they left a will where would it go through probate?
A lot of ifs there but the Prerogative Court of Canterbury, which is my go to for wills pre-probate calendar does not seem to have Lancashire wills.
ElizabethHerts
06-01-20, 05:56
Try FindMyPast, Toni:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-Records/lancashire-wills-and-probate-1457-1858
Also, I got nearly 6,000 hits when I typed Lancashire in the Keyword box for PCC Wills on Ancestry.
ElizabethHerts
06-01-20, 06:02
Also, again on FMP, there are lots of Lancashire wills in with the Chester ones:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-Records/cheshire-wills-and-probate
thank you. I'll have a look.
Strange, I couldn't get Lancashire wills to come up when I searched on FMP.
However the person does not appear to have left a will so I don't know if the freebmd entry I found is or isn't mine.
There were over 200 church courts proving wills before 1858. The PCC only accounted for a maximum of 40% of the wills proved. If a will attracted death duties and was proved between 1796 and 1903 in England or Wales then there should be an entry in the Index to Death Duty Register which is on FMP:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-Records/index-to-death-duty-registers-1796-1903
ElizabethHerts
06-01-20, 07:42
Strange, I couldn't get Lancashire wills to come up when I searched on FMP.
However the person does not appear to have left a will so I don't know if the freebmd entry I found is or isn't mine.
Did you use the link I gave, Toni?
kiterunner
06-01-20, 08:43
This is the site I use:
https://user.xmission.com/~nelsonb/lws.htm
There were over 200 church courts proving wills before 1858. The PCC only accounted for a maximum of 40% of the wills proved. If a will attracted death duties and was proved between 1796 and 1903 in England or Wales then there should be an entry in the Index to Death Duty Register which is on FMP:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-Records/index-to-death-duty-registers-1796-1903
Thanks. I'll have a look.
Did you use the link I gave, Toni?
Yes, I did and it worked, thank you. I had searched FMP for anything Lancashire before I posted and the wills weren't listed. That was what was strange.
Thanks Kate and Merry.
He isn't listed on either site. It doesn't look like there was a will.
Does a UK death certificate list an occupation?
kiterunner
06-01-20, 10:02
Yes.
Wasn’t there a site specifically for Lancs wills? I know I got some early ones ages ago. I didn’t have FMP at that time.
kiterunner
06-01-20, 10:16
Wasn’t there a site specifically for Lancs wills? I know I got some early ones ages ago. I didn’t have FMP at that time.
Post #8?
Lordy, these drugs have turned my brain to mush. Thanks. That’s the one.
Yes.
Thanks.
I'll add the suspect to my list of wanted certs. As I don't know his age or where exactly he was living and have a 20 year time frame for the death I need an informant or occupation to be listed to know if it is him.
Toni......can you put a name up? I’m happy to have a look around.
Libby - it's John Walter.
He lived in Manchester, Lancashire.
He married Frances Saxon on 1 Dec 1813 at St Mary, St Denny and St George.
He was married previously, wife unknown but I suspect it was in 1791 to a Sarah Nicholson, but I have no proof and can't see the original image.
He had 8 children, starting wit Sarah in about 1815 and finishing with James in 1832.
He doesn't appear on a census with his family but Frances is not a widow until 1861.
Daughter Ellen Louisa b 1830 is OH's direct relative. She married Isaac Newton in 1848, who disappears and she is with Thomas Henry Thompson by 1856 when they have a daughter together. Ellen is missing on the 1851 census so I have no idea if she is with Isaac or Thomas at that point.
There may be threads about some of this but a new sub had me looking to fill in John's life and I've failed miserably.
Oakum Picker
08-01-20, 08:06
The John WALTER who died in 1853 was 60 if that's an help. Makes a previous marriage unlikely.
It's surprising that the John Walter aged 60 in 1851 (prob the same one who died in 1853!) b Ireland and with two sons born Ireland at a date that should preclude him from being anything to do with Frances, is also living in Manchester and is also a shoemaker! Of course he is also too young if the first marriage was in 1791. Have you found children from the first marriage and traced them forward?
Sarah Nicholson married John WALTON ( could be your guy) in Pennington 10/07/1791
Said they were both from the parish.
There are a few kids of John WALTON and Sarah. Do you want them? I’m on Lancs OPC. I find it the best site for Lancs.
Every record shows John’s name as WALTON.
Pennington in Furness (where the 1791 marriage took place) is about as far from Manchester as you can get in Lancs. I'm not saying this means it can't be the same John marrying there, but Cheshire, Shropshire, Staffordshire, Derbyshire, West and South Yorkshire and even Denbighshire in Wales are all nearer Manchester than anywhere 'in Furness' which is the bit of Lancashire near Westmoreland and Cumberland.
There are two burials for Sarah Walton wife of John.
Age 29 1803 Preston
Age 43 1809 Blackburn
Can’t find any kids for them in Pennington after 1798. If this is the right couple, I’d say maybe the 29 year old, although I’ve no idea if Preston is anywhere near Pennington.
There's also this burial if these people are not to do with the ones from Manchester/Salford
Burial: 5 Feb 1832 St Michael and the Holy Angels, Pennington in Furness, Lancs.
Sarah Walton -
Age: 71
Abode: Rosshead
Buried by: Rowl. Robinson, Curate
Register: Burials 1814 - 1870 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Entry 95
Source: LDS Films 1040309 and 1040491
John Walter signs his name clearly on the 1813 marriage record and on the marriage bond (Cheshire records, FMP). Having said that, Ancestry have the 1791 marriage as Walter not Walton, so maybe there is partly a handwriting issue?
I’ve no idea if Preston is anywhere near Pennington.
I's about half way between Manchester and Pennington, but the Furness area is quite cut off from the rest of Lancashire. Libby, I think you have people from Ulverston? Pennington is near there.
Yes, all mine are from Lakes district around the time I was researching.
There's also this burial if these people are not to do with the ones from Manchester/Salford
Burial: 5 Feb 1832 St Michael and the Holy Angels, Pennington in Furness, Lancs.
Sarah Walton -
Age: 71
Abode: Rosshead
Buried by: Rowl. Robinson, Curate
Register: Burials 1814 - 1870 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Entry 95
Source: LDS Films 1040309 and 1040491
John Walter signs his name clearly on the 1813 marriage record and on the marriage bond (Cheshire records, FMP). Having said that, Ancestry have the 1791 marriage as Walter not Walton, so maybe there is partly a handwriting issue?
Lancs OPC have that marriage as Walton.
Lancs OPC have that marriage as Walton.
Yes, I think it probably is Walton and perhaps nothing to do with the Manchester people.
The John who married in Pennington seems to have been a slate digger or labourer (baptisms of his children in Pennington) whilst the one in Manchester was a shoemaker, so very doubtful they are one and the same.
I saw 2 transcriptions for the Sarah Nicholson marriage. One was Walton the other Walter. If all the children are Walton then I'd say it is the wrong marriage.
I only think he had 2 marriages as he was a widow when marrying Frances.
From memory he was a Shearmaker. I don't know what that is but it was consistent on the children's baptisms. Is that another name for a shoemaker?
I saw the 1851 census entry and couldn't decide if it was mine. As you say the age doesn't work for a previous marriage and I was looking for wills to see if that helped, I hadn't followed anything else up.
I lost ancestry for a few days and couldn't do anything. I put the info up for Libby as she requested. I don't think I've used the Lancs OPC.
Lancs OPC is a brilliant free site. Read the intro as you can search the whole county or just parishes. The areas that used to be Lancs but are not anymore are there as well.
That sounds wonderful. John's daughter Ellen's men are problems too. I might find them there.
Haha I'm so funny.
We live in hope. If you ever see a spare Hugh Addison around the 1700s, I’ll have him. Next to nothing official on him, but he’s mentioned in wills and books. I have his will. He hid his children as well. lol
From memory he was a Shearmaker.
lol! *note to self* Don't do lookups without glasses!
Yesterday everything said shoemaker, but now, with my reading glasses everything says shearmaker! lol
Shears = big scissors used by tailors and the like for cutting cloth. I would presume the term might also include what we (or us here in the UK anyway!) might call garden shears, or if those had a different name in the past.
The 1851 census chap does say shoemaker, but of course that could be an error too (though there is a shoe binder in their household too)! The problem with that man is that he has children with him born in Ireland within the date range of his marriage to Frances. I can't find the sons anywhere else to see how their ages pan out, as if they had been a bit older it could just about have worked (ie born to a previous marriage in Ireland), but less relevant if he was truly a shoemaker.
I think it's far more likely that Frances was actually a widow already in 1851 but the census entry is incorrect for her status. She was probably a widow in 1841 as well. That would explain why we can't find a sensible death for John. Another option is that John had left Frances and she didn't know if he was alive or dead.
Lancs OPC is a brilliant free site. Read the intro as you can search the whole county or just parishes. The areas that used to be Lancs but are not anymore are there as well.
Much of what is on Lancs OPC can now be found as images on Ancestry, but it is a great finding tool if you can follow up with an image. I have found a few mis-transcriptions over the years - hardly surprising when you consider the size of the project.
When Johns dau Catherine married in 1845 she didn't say her father was dec'd, but none of the other marriages (I looked at 20 entries, each side) said father dec'd, so we can't read anything into that. Same for her sister Susan, same year.
Susan married again in 1859, but still no comment about her father's status, except that this time he is a chair maker, which is the same occ as the groom's father, so may be an error.
In 1870 James b 1832 married and John was listed as shear maker. A marriage on the opposite page has father's dec'd, but of course we don't know if this was asked, or in that case the bride offered the information. I did look at he witnesses for all these marriages, but no John. I didn't look at pre-1837 marriages.
I can't find the sons anywhere else to see how their ages pan out, as if they had been a bit older it could just about have worked (ie born to a previous marriage in Ireland), but less relevant if he was truly a shoemaker.
I think it's far more likely that Frances was actually a widow already in 1851 but the census entry is incorrect for her status. She was probably a widow in 1841 as well. That would explain why we can't find a sensible death for John. Another option is that John had left Frances and she didn't know if he was alive or dead.
I'll have a look tomorrow and see if anything stands out for me.
He may have just left Frances. I'm fairly sure that Ellen's husband, Isaac, is not dead, well wasn't back then anyway, which is why I can't find a marriage to Thomas Thompson.
When Johns dau Catherine married in 1845 she didn't say her father was dec'd, but none of the other marriages (I looked at 20 entries, each side) said father dec'd, so we can't read anything into that. Same for her sister Susan, same year.
Susan married again in 1859, but still no comment about her father's status, except that this time he is a chair maker, which is the same occ as the groom's father, so may be an error.
In 1870 James b 1832 married and John was listed as shear maker. A marriage on the opposite page has father's dec'd, but of course we don't know if this was asked, or in that case the bride offered the information. I did look at he witnesses for all these marriages, but no John. I didn't look at pre-1837 marriages.
I'll have to check I have all this information. It's too late here to remember. I know I checked as thoroughly as I could to work things out. I also wanted family to be witnesses for each other, but the ones I wanted didn't co-operate.
One of the older children of John and Frances was Sarah, who married in 1843 to plumber Emanuel Nelson - one of the witnesses is Sarah's future brother-in-law, James Smylie.
Emanuel Nelson's father is recorded as dec'd, but Sarah's father is John Walter a cutler, and not recorded as dec'd. So.….was he alive somewhere after all?? Or did Sarah not know?
He may have left the family and died later on.
He may also be alive in 1861 but as he had been absent for so long it was easier to say he'd died.
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