Who were Sarah Maynard's parents? [Archive] - Genealogists' Forum

Cass Ainslie

03-01-20, 16:51

Does anyone have any record of Mary, born about 1770 in or near Bermondsey, Kent?
She married Thomas Maynard of Bermondsey (button maker) and had at least one daughter, Sarah, born 1789.
Sarah married John Pelham Crookenden of Rotherhithe in 1817.
I would like to know what Mary's maiden name was.

kiterunner

03-01-20, 18:31

There is / was no Bermondsey in Kent as far as I know. Do you mean the Bermondsey which was historically in Surrey and is now in London? Since you mention Rotherhithe I would assume so.

kiterunner

03-01-20, 18:37

Sarah Maynard's baptism record? :
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1624/31280_194453-00274?pid=3332875&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ctf19123&_phstart=successSource

St Olave, Bermondsey, Southwark
Christenings November 1797
Sarah D of Thomas & Mary Hayward Button Maker B[orn] October 16, [baptised November] 12.

It definitely says Hayward on the image but Ancestry have transcribed it as Maynard. But because you say the father's occupation is button maker, it seems to fit despite the year being wrong? Of course it could easily have been written down wrong on the register as it was likely copied from another document.

kiterunner

03-01-20, 18:44

Sarah Crookenden's death was registered Jul-Sep 1872 St Olave, with her age given as 83, which would fit better with her being born in 1797 than in 1789. If that is the right death record, of course! I will see if I can find her on the censuses to see what her age is on those.

kiterunner

03-01-20, 18:53

Okay, on the 1841 census Sarah is down as age 50 (i.e. 50-54) and born in Surrey:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8978/SRYHO107_1067_1069-0035/10296113?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/11145842/person/1459462569/facts

Her husband died in 1847, so she should be a widow on the later censuses if that was the right death for her.

This could possibly be her in 1851?
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8860/KENHO107_1591_1591-0473/1141878?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
12 Ordnance Row, Lewisham, Kent
Thankful Bookenden Head Widower 89 Retired Ship Builder Kent Brompton
Sarah Crookenden Niece Widow 61 House Keeper Kent Witersham.

Surely his surname can't be Bookenden? But it does look like it.

Cass Ainslie

03-01-20, 18:53

Hello 'Kiterunner'
Thank you for helping!
Sarah Maynard was born in 1789 from the record images I have seen on Ancestry Uk, though I will check again.
You are right, Bermonsey is in Surrey, not Kent!
As for the surname being different - I will also check the images of documents I saved on Ancestry - but I am practically certain that it was a Sarah Maynard who married John Pelham Crookenden.
I was in contact with a member on Ancestry who manages a Tree for someone else, who advised me that many Bermonsey records were lost in the Blitz.

kiterunner

03-01-20, 19:02

1871 census - absolutely terrible writing!
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7619/LNDRG10_746_748-0011/5918370?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdbid%3d7619%26gsfn%3dsar*%26gsfn_x %3d1%26gsln_x%3d1%26cp%3d0%26msbdy%3d1789%26msbdy_ x%3d1%26msrdy_x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp%3dlondon%252c%2be ngland%252c%2bunited%2bkingdom%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1% 26msrpn%3d5274%26msrpn_x%3d1%26hc%3d20%26new%3d1%2 6rank%3d1%26fh%3d20%26fsk%3dMDsxOTsyMA-61--61-%26uidh%3dvm5%26redir%3dfalse&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

20 Stanley Terrace, Deptford
Sarah Crookenden Widow Widow 82 Dress maker retired Wickham Kent. I think that's what it says.

kiterunner

03-01-20, 19:04

Is there any definite proof that the Sarah who married John Pelham Crookenden was the daughter of Thomas and Mary, or is that someone's best guess from searching for possible baptisms?

kiterunner

03-01-20, 19:09

Okay, assuming that Thankful's real surname was Crookenden, not Bookenden, there is a baptism for him in 1761 at Chatham, Kent, but I guess that means Sarah was his nephew's wife, not his blood relative, so he isn't going to be a clue to her parentage!

There are quite a few missing chunks of the 1861 census, so we may not find Sarah on that one.

kiterunner

03-01-20, 19:15

Ooh, there is a Sarah Maynard baptism 18 Oct 1789 at Wittersham, Kent. Surely that can't be a coincidence?! Parents' names Edward and Ann.

So I think the Sarah, daughter of Thomas, button maker, is probably not your Sarah.

There was a witness called Eliza Pascoe at John and Sarah's wedding. I wonder if we can find how she is connected. (The other witness was Albinus Crookenden.)

kiterunner

03-01-20, 19:19

Let me know if you would like me to change the thread title!

I'm off to eat now but will be back later.

Cass Ainslie

03-01-20, 19:33

Oh, that baptism record for Sarah is wrong, as you say, because it is 7 years too late and it is definitely a Thomas and Mary Hayward - not Maynard!
She was born about 1789 if she died aged 83 in 1872 and she is 6-7 older than her husband in the 1841 census.
So her mother wasn't a Mary then - but possibly Ann ?! I have been looking for the wrong mother/parents?
I am particularly keen to follow this 'motherline' back since I have had my mt dna result which is uncommon (U4) in Engand
On the marriage doc. Albinus is John P Crookenden's father.
I will now try to find out a bit more on Edward and Ann Maynard of Wittersham, Kent.
Thank you for pointing me in the right direction!

Cass Ainslie

03-01-20, 20:12

If Sarah were born in Surrey - there are 2 that I have found for BAPTISMS that would fit - Farnham 1789 to John and Mary, or Southwark 1792 to Charles and Sarah (which is closer to Rotherhithe).
At any rate, The Thread aught to say - 'Who was Sarah Maynard's parents?' or perhaps I should start again ?!

kiterunner

03-01-20, 21:35

I've changed the thread title for you. I think it will be easier to keep it all on one thread rather than start another one.

kiterunner

03-01-20, 21:46

Edward Maynard married Ann Masters 28 Jun 1789 at Wittersham.

Sarah Crookenden's burial info is available on a site called Deceased Online - buried 31 Aug 1872 in Southwark. If you pay on there, you could view the "grave details and 1 other burial" or "burial register scan" to confirm that it is the right Sarah. Or you could order the death certificate from the GRO to do the same.

Cass Ainslie

04-01-20, 15:42

I paid to look at the burial records for Sarah but could not access anything other than the same info you have stated above.

kiterunner

04-01-20, 17:01

That's a shame, Cass. Didn't the images show who the other person buried with her was, or who paid for the grave, or anything like that?

Cass Ainslie

04-01-20, 18:10

No 'images' at all. Only the same info that you gave me, when I clicked on her name as instructed. There was supposed to be a 'link' to the records of that cemetery but the screen said the page didn't exist.
So Sarah's mother is as elusive as ever, but thanks for trying to help!

kiterunner

04-01-20, 19:18

If you paid to view images and didn't get them, you should contact Deceased Online and ask for a refund.

kiterunner

04-01-20, 19:20

Here is their contact form:
https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch?AcctView=Login&SrchView=Basic&lang=E&sessionid=2D36BA049CACCD9C34DD6B7EC594E403B694FBCF&GSDOInptSName=crookenden&GSDOInptFName=sarah&GSDOInptRegion=&GSDOInptFrom=&GSDOInptTo=&GSDOInptSoundex=&GSDOInptRegType=&GSDOInptCountry=&GSDOInptRegion=&GSDOInptCounty=&GSDOInptSite=&GSDOInptLocation=&GSDOInptLocType=&erpp=10&orderBy=SNAME;FNAME;ENTRYDATE&DetsView=SupportMail

Merry

04-01-20, 22:09

Possible baptisms (FMP images):

Wittersham, Kent:

16 Jul 1770 Ann dau of George and Mary Masters

6 Feb 1763 Edward son of Edward and Ann Maynard

Possible burials (FMP images):

Lydd, Kent:

12 Mar 1821 Ann Maynard, abode Lydd, aged 50

6 May 1829 Edward Maynard, abode Lydd, aged 66

Other children for the above couple (FMP baptism transcriptions):

Lydd, Kent:

18 Dec 1791 Elizabeth

30 Jun 1799 Kitty

7 Feb 1802 Eliza

14 Mar 1805 Marianne

Cass Ainslie

05-01-20, 11:09

Merry

05-01-20, 11:21

But in 1851 she says she was born in Witersham, Kent and Wickham Kent in 1871.

I would say this is more reliable than the 1841 census.

kiterunner

05-01-20, 14:33

But in 1851 she says she was born in Witersham, Kent and Wickham Kent in 1871.

I would say this is more reliable than the 1841 census.

That's IF the Sarah on those censuses is the right one, though (i.e. the one who was married to John Pelham Crookenden). I'm pretty certain that it is the right person, but it would help if we had something to prove it.

kiterunner

05-01-20, 14:43

Thank you, but it looks like Sarah was born in Surrey, not Kent, according to the 1841 census.
She could be the daughter of Charles and Sarah, baptised in 1792 in Southwark.
Sarah Maynard the younger, married John P Crookenden of Rotherhithe in1817. Rotherhithe is not far from Southwark and she was 5-6 years older than John, as is shown on that census.
I can't seem to find any more info for Charles and Sarah.

Just for the sake of avoiding any confusion - the marriage records don't call her Sarah Maynard the younger.

I was hoping that a relative of Sarah's might be named on the marriage licence bond, but it's just "John Doe":
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2056/dwmp214033001/497136?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return

kiterunner

05-01-20, 14:46

Thank you, but it looks like Sarah was born in Surrey, not Kent, according to the 1841 census.
She could be the daughter of Charles and Sarah, baptised in 1792 in Southwark.
Sarah Maynard the younger, married John P Crookenden of Rotherhithe in1817. Rotherhithe is not far from Southwark and she was 5-6 years older than John, as is shown on that census.
I can't seem to find any more info for Charles and Sarah.

The 1841 census doesn't show ages accurately enough to be that sure of their age difference - ages were rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5.

Merry

05-01-20, 14:51

That's IF the Sarah on those censuses is the right one

I think it is, but for proof what about connecting Thankful Crookenden to John Pelham Crookenden? I know that's not 100% as Thankful could have had numerous nephews married to people named Sarah, but still, it would close the net a bit if we could demonstrate the uncle/nephew relationship.

kiterunner

05-01-20, 15:00

Good idea. For a start, here is Thankfull Crookenden's will, but it looks as though he just calls Sarah his housekeeper in it:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/5111/40611_309751-00762?pid=636419&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ctf19485&_phstart=successSource

I haven't read it properly yet, though. At least there aren't many people of the same name!

Merry

05-01-20, 15:02

We already know Albinus is John C's father...

Thankfull Crookenden Christening (Baptism) 20 Sep 1761 Chatham, St Mary, Caleb, Mary

Albinus Crookenden Christening (Baptism) 4 Apr 1755 Chatham, St Mary, Caleb, Mary

kiterunner

05-01-20, 15:06

These are the people mentioned in Thankfull Crookenden's will:

My nephew The Reverend Henry John Dawes and his sons Spencer Dawes and the Reverend Henry Pelham Dawes
My nieces Julia Barton and Charlotte Swann
My nephew Adolphus Crookenden
My nephew Thomas Crookenden
Miss Maria King and her brother Thomas King
Mr Caleb Martin Taylor (or Taylor could be his occupation)
John Mazon
My housekeeper Sarah Crookenden
The children of my late brothers and sisters, i.e. the said Thomas Crookenden, Adolphus Crookenden, Daniel Barton and the said Henry John Dawes.

kiterunner

05-01-20, 15:09

So it looks extremely likely that the Sarah Crookenden who was Thankfull Crookenden's "niece" and housekeeper was the widow of John Pelham Crookenden, doesn't it?

Merry

05-01-20, 15:13

Yes, I think it does.

kiterunner

05-01-20, 15:16

Hopefully the 1872 Sarah Crookenden death certificate would give her husband's name.

Merry

05-01-20, 16:00

I've looked at a couple of the sisters of Sarah Maynard...

Kitty Maynard married Peter White Aylward in 1820 in Lee, Kent

Eliza Maynard married William Prebble in 1820 in Lydd, Kent

Both these two appear on various census, b Lydd, but there's no clues to help with Sarah so far. I haven't been able to find images for their marriages.

kiterunner

05-01-20, 16:02

So Eliza Maynard isn't Eliza Pascoe, then (the witness at John and Sarah's wedding in 1817.) Shame!

Merry

05-01-20, 16:08

No, I tried to make that happen too!

Merry

05-01-20, 16:09

I've not found Elizabeth or Marianne yet.

Merry

05-01-20, 16:31

So Eliza Maynard isn't Eliza Pascoe, then (the witness at John and Sarah's wedding in 1817.) Shame!

Oooh, my mistake - it was Elizabeth who married Wm Prebble!! So, I don't know what happened to Eliza.

Merry

05-01-20, 16:33

But Mrs Prebble is Eliza on the census which is why I was confused!! Going by her age on the census she should be Eliza (bap 1802).

Merry

05-01-20, 16:42

There are 11 Elizabeths on the 1851 census b +/-5 years of 1791 from Lydd Kent. Not sure if I have the time to be looking for their marriages in case one is Elizabeth Maynard. :(

Merry

05-01-20, 17:08

Sarah and John's first son was named for him and his father - Albinus John. Their second son was Edward Thadeus. Could be for her father.

Cass Ainslie

05-01-20, 19:05

Thankyou both!
Sarah Crookenden on the 1841 census is a widow of the right age, housekeeping for her father-in-law's brother then - they were a family of shipbuilders and Thankfull is listed as a retired shipbuilder.
I couldn't find her on any subsequent census records.
She appears to have been buried in Southwark in 1872, but Thankfull had died and so had Sarah's daughter Elizabeth, in 1857, so I wonder where she lived and who looked after her until her death at the age of 83.
I will have a look at the Edward and Ann Maynard connection again in Wittersham, Kent

Janet

05-01-20, 19:08

I don't know if this helps. You might already have the death cert for John Pelham Crookenden but if not it's on Ancestry.
https://www.ancestry.com/mediaui-viewer/tree/48845834/person/13786171151/media/7165ea91-ee65-431a-9ab9-04a209830354

There's also this glimpse of Albinus Crookenden.
https://www.ancestry.com/mediaui-viewer/tree/100667795/person/270005383666/media/82ef3b0d-6c00-4ead-ade8-8f15a744b601

Merry

05-01-20, 20:50

so I wonder where she lived and who looked after her until her death at the age of 83.

In 1871 she seems to be living by herself at 20 Stanley Terrace, Deptford (see post #7)

Cass Ainslie

05-01-20, 20:54

Thank you, I do have the Crookendens back to John Pelham's Great grandfather b in 1703.
I am particularly interested in my direct 'motherline' , Sarah Maynard is my 4 x great grandmother.
I think Merry and Kiterunner have been very helpful in re-directing me to the village of Wittersham in Kent which have parish records, so I may have pushed back this line to Sarah Maynard's Great Grandmother - if I can discover her maiden name!

Is it usual for only a mother to be named on a baptism record?

If Sarah's mother was Ann Masters who married Edward Maynard in Wittersham, in June 1789, it was only 4 months before she gave birth to Sarah!!

kiterunner

05-01-20, 21:31

Cass Ainslie

06-01-20, 10:41

Thank you.
It looks like Ann Master's mother Mary Lording, baptised in 1745 at Lydd, Kent, was the illegitimate daughter of an Ann Lording.
I am glad to have pushed back my 'motherline' knowledge by another two generations to my 7 x great grandmother, in Kent.