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kiterunner
15-01-10, 09:36
Name - "official" name and what they were known as Ann Marshall
Date and place of birth About 1834, Birkdale, Lancashire
Names of parents John Marshall and Jane nee Aughton
Date and place of baptism - if applicable 4 July 1834 at St Cuthbert's, North Meols, Lancashire
Details of each of his or her marriages - if any Jul-Sep 1856, Southport Christ Church, to James Rimmer
Occupation(s) - if any Grocer
Addresses where they lived - and please list which censuses you have or haven't found him/her on.
1841 South End Lane, Birkdale
1851 Birkdale
1861 1 Delhi Terrace, Wellington Road, Southport
1871 173 Wellington Terrace, Southport
1881 found by Marg as a visitor at Llangollen, Wales
1891 4 Hampton Road, Southport

Date, place and cause of death 26 Dec 1899 Ormskirk district
Date and place of burial / cremation. Duke Street Cemetery, Southport
Details of will / administration of their estate - if applicable Administration granted 21 Nov 1902 Liverpool to James Rimmer gentleman, estate £455.
Memorial inscription - if any Also of Ann, mother of the above, who died December 26th 1899, aged 64 years.

kiterunner
15-01-10, 10:01
I should add that in 1881 Ann's daughter Ada is listed as a patient at the hospital in Birkdale, so it could be that Ann was at the hospital on census night and ended up not being listed either there or at home.

Margaret in Burton
15-01-10, 10:15
Two possible deaths Kate

Both Ormskirk

1899
Dec qtr 8b 608 aged 64

1898
Mar qtr 8b 547 aged 62

kiterunner
15-01-10, 10:18
Thanks, Marg. I've been looking at the St Cuthbert's, North Meols burials on the Lancashire Online Parish Clerks site to try to figure out which one might be her, but neither of them was buried there!

Margaret in Burton
15-01-10, 10:20
Nothing on the NBI either.

Margaret in Burton
15-01-10, 10:28
Are you sure that daughter Ada was in hospital on census night in 1881? Just found this in Wales.

RG11; Piece: 5541; Folio: 21; Page: 35

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8059&iid=DENRG11_5540_5544-0315&fn=Ann&ln=Rimmer&st=r&ssrc=&pid=2529631

kiterunner
15-01-10, 10:32
Ooooh, clever! Why did I never think of looking in Wales?! Thanks very much, Marg, that is definitely them because of the occupation - shopkeeper's wife. Now I wonder what they were doing there?!

Margaret in Burton
15-01-10, 10:38
I never think to look in Wales either. I have my bookmarks for each census set for England. I looked on family search as they use a sounds like in the search. That how I found it.
Not your Ada in hospital then.
Seemed to be more Rimmer's in Southport area, maybe she belongs to one of those.

kiterunner
15-01-10, 10:39
Yes, there are millions of Rimmers in the Southport area, that's where all the Rimmers come from. I'd always assumed it was my Ada because she wasn't at home!

kiterunner
23-11-12, 10:46
Found a burial for the 1898 Ann on Lancs OPC - 25 Feb 1898 at St Peter & St Paul, Ormskirk, Ann Rimmer age 62, abode Birkdale.

And a National Probate Calendar entry for an Ann who died in the Oct-Dec quarter of 1899, entry is from 1902:
RIMMER Ann of "Scarisbrick" New-road Southport Lancashire (wife of James Rimmer) died 26 December 1899 Administration Liverpool 21 November to the said James Rimmer gentleman. Effects £455.

I think the address is slightly messed up there as my James Rimmer is at 28 Scarisbrick New Road on the 1901 census. So this must be her, as the other Ann Rimmer who died in that quarter (age 86) has abode Shellfield Road on the Lancs OPC burial entry.

Janet
24-11-12, 03:06
Ooooh, clever! Why did I never think of looking in Wales?! Thanks very much, Marg, that is definitely them because of the occupation - shopkeeper's wife. Now I wonder what they were doing there?!

Wedding or a funeral? Census was 3 April. There is the death of a Margaret Rimmer Williams in Wrexham, a dozen miles from Llangollen, registered in Jan-Feb-Mar 1881. One of yours?

Janet
24-11-12, 06:42
http://freespace.virgin.net/jill.farndon25/R.html
This from Clwyd Family History Society seems to be a reference to the same Margaret Rimmer:
RIMMER 30 Wrexham: George;
353 Pentrobin:
358 Holywell Town Cemetery MIs: Denis;
*363 Wrexham: Margaret Rimmer WILLIAMS
*375 Wrexham: 13 Mar 1878 bap/o Edward Llewelyn WILLIAMS
s/o Joseph Llewelyn (surgeon) & Margaret Rimmer, Regis Place
*393 Wrexham: 15 Mar 1881 bur/o Margaret Rimmer WILLIAMS, aged 32, Chester St.
Misc: Welsh Wills proved at Chester 1545-1858 (deposited at NLW): Margaret, Conway 19 Mar 1810
RYMER 314 Rhosllanerchrugog:
359 Rhosymedre: Anne, Thomas;
RYMMER Misc: Welsh Wills proved at Chester 1545-1858 (deposited at NLW): Richard, Holt Hill 1671

kiterunner
24-11-12, 09:57
Thanks for that, Janet, but I don't think there is a connection.

kiterunner
21-07-18, 23:06
Hmm, here's a turn-up for the books! Now FMP has put the Southport area PR's online, I've had a look at the marriage record, 24 Sep 1856 at Christ Church, Southport, James Rimmer, 21, bachelor, and Ann Marshall, 20, spinster, both of Birkdale. Witnesses Miles Blundell and Ann Rimmer. His father is down as James Rimmer, farmer, which fits my tree, but hers is Richard Marshall, shoe maker. I had her father down as John Marshall, farmer! :eek:

May have to make some serious adjustments to my tree...!

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=S2/GBPRS/LANCS/LANCASHIRE_50/00104&parentid=GBPRS/LANCS/MAR/00247473/1

kiterunner
21-07-18, 23:20
This is the 1861 census entry for John Marshall, who I thought was my Ann's father, with grandson John Rimmer, age 3, born Birkdale.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8767/LANRG9_2759_2762-0129?pid=23331725&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D8767%26h%3D23331725%26t id%3D19209336%26pid%3D770728255%26hid%3D3185965424 7%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DdNx857%26_phstart%3Dd efault%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue&treeid=19209336&personid=770728255&hintid=31859654247&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx857&_phstart=default&usePUBJs=true

My James and Ann have son John Rimmer age 13, born Birkdale, with them on the 1871 census and he is not with them in 1861.

kiterunner
22-07-18, 00:00
John Marshall's will named three of his children (not including Ann) as executors but then just said everything should be shared between all his children without naming the rest of them.

I haven't managed to find a Richard Marshall, shoe maker, yet. Will have to return to this tomorrow!

Guinevere
22-07-18, 06:01
Oh dear ...

Merry
22-07-18, 12:04
I'm placing a bet on you eventually having to prove there's a mistake on the marriage record rather than having the wrong family.

Merry
22-07-18, 12:12
Interesting that Ann is recorded as a minor at the marriage. I wonder who gave their consent?


What is the name of Ann's supposed paternal grandfather?

Merry
22-07-18, 13:30
What is the name of Ann's supposed paternal grandfather?


I see it's Joseph (from ToGG).

I had been wondering if Ann's father had given details because he was there to give consent and had somehow given his own father's details! I'm sure you would have thought of that in any case.


I couldn't see how John (the grandson in 1861) could be anyone other than the child of James and Ann. It seemed unlikely the relationship was incorrect as there doesn't seem to have been any Richard Marshalls anywhere in the area at the right time. I did find one other shoemaker, but his name was Joseph Marshall. He looks like he is the elder brother of Ann, dau of John and Jane (b abt 1825 according to the 1851 census). So, there is that occ in the family!

Merry
22-07-18, 14:33
When Joseph Marshall (shoemaker) married Margaret Robinson in 1847 at Christ Church Southport, he correctly named his father as John Marshall, but said he was a shoemaker, same as Ann did for her father 'Richard' Marshall.

Merry
22-07-18, 14:36
Oh, lol!! I have looked at the 1841 census for John Marshall and his family several times today, but never noticed he was listed as a shoemaker! :o

Merry
22-07-18, 14:39
And you have shoemaker as well as farmer on the ToGG entry for John.

So, it's just that annoying first name that is wrong for Ann's father. Another need for a time machine to see how things panned out at the wedding. :(

kiterunner
22-07-18, 16:02
Thanks for that, Merry. I thought I'd seen shoemaker somewhere in this family but I hadn't put it on my tree as one of John's occupations. It's a while since I looked at the Marshalls. I do think the marriage cert must be wrong.

kiterunner
22-07-18, 16:10
Ann Marshall made her mark on the marriage certificate, so she wouldn't have noticed if father's name was wrong. James and Ann's first son was named John and their second daughter Jane, with second son being James and first daughter Alice after James's parents. No son named Richard.

But John Marshall did have an elder brother named Richard, about a year older than him. I don't seem to have traced him after his baptism (11 Nov 1798). I wonder whether the vicar or clerk could have got John confused with his brother.

kiterunner
22-07-18, 16:23
This looks likely to be John Marshall's brother Richard in 1851, a farmer in Formby. Two of his children are named Joseph and Margaret, so he would fit. His children are down as born in Ainsdale and there isn't a daughter Ann with them on this census (though of course that doesn't mean they didn't have an Ann.)
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8860/LANHO107_2196_2196-0682?pid=13105865&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D8860%26h%3D13105865%26t id%3D19209336%26pid%3D770727497%26hid%3D3414270742 9%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DdNx874%26_phstart%3Dd efault%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue&treeid=19209336&personid=770727497&hintid=34142707429&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx874&_phstart=default&usePUBJs=true

Merry
22-07-18, 16:24
Interesting.

This might be Richard (1851):

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8860/LANHO107_2196_2196-0682/13105865?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return

Merry
22-07-18, 16:28
Cross-posted!

kiterunner
22-07-18, 16:29
Snap!

And in 1841, no daughter Ann then either:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8978/LANHO107_519_520-0209?pid=15745045&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D8978%26h%3D15745045%26t id%3D19209336%26pid%3D770727497%26hid%3D3414270742 7%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DdNx879%26_phstart%3Dd efault%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue&treeid=19209336&personid=770727497&hintid=34142707427&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx879&_phstart=default&usePUBJs=true

Merry
22-07-18, 16:34
No.

Richard's marriage:

Marriage: 15 Jul 1833 St Mary, Walton on the Hill, Lancashire, England
Richard Marshall - Farmer, this Parish
Ann Norris - Spinster, this Parish
Witness: Philip Norris; John Rimmer
Married by Banns by: Jno. Swainson, Curate
Register: Marriages 1823 - 1837, Page 119, Entry 241
Source: LDS Film 1647985

I checked the GRO birth reg for their son Philip, b 1840 mmn Norris.

kiterunner
22-07-18, 16:36
Richard died in 1855, so it can't be a case of him standing in for John to give Ann away:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=S2/GBPRS/LANCS/4401606/02260&parentid=GBPRS/LANCS/BUR/00439536

Merry
22-07-18, 16:38
How close together are Birkdale and Ainsdale?

kiterunner
22-07-18, 16:50
How close together are Birkdale and Ainsdale?
Very close.

Merry
22-07-18, 17:21
So, just a mistake at the marriage? I bet they would be surprised if they could see us stressing over it all these years later!

kiterunner
22-07-18, 17:29
Lol. Yes, I think it must just be a mistake on the cert.