View Full Version : Question about short birth certificates
I have a couple of short birth certificates in my collection but they don't answer my question because they are for babies with married parents.
If an unmarried couple were both at the birth registration and they brought away a short certificate, what surname would be on the document?
kiterunner
21-09-19, 09:22
Nowadays the parents choose which surname the child is going to have, and the surname they choose will be on the short certificate, but I don't know whether it was the same when the short certificate was originally brought in.
Olde Crone
21-09-19, 09:26
I didn't think you could have a short birth cert any more?
My daughter and her partner are not married. When they went together to register the birth of my grandson, they were asked what surname the boy will use and that is what is on his (long) birth certificate.
Historically, I was born before there was a surname column on birth certificates. It was assumed by convention that you would use the surname of your father but that has never been compulsory. So I assume that the same question that is asked now, was asked then - what surname will the child use. (Where the parents were not married to each other).
OC
The one I'm wondering about is from the 1960s.
I feel really ridiculous typing this as it seems so unlikely, but if someone only had their short cert and knew their mother was unmarried, they could potentially not know their father was recorded on their full cert?
kiterunner
21-09-19, 09:46
The one I'm wondering about is from the 1960s.
I feel really ridiculous typing this as it seems so unlikely, but if someone only had their short cert and knew their mother was unmarried, they could potentially not know their father was recorded on their full cert?
I think that's right, yes. Possible.
I didn't think you could have a short birth cert any more?
Sorry, by "nowadays" I guess I meant "in the 1990's".
kiterunner
21-09-19, 10:03
But if both parents registered the birth, there should be two index entries, one for each surname.
The entry is indexed twice, so the full cert would show the father's details. I just wondered if the child might not know that if the only cert they have seen is a short one.
I find this hard to believe, but it is possible, I think!
Olde Crone
21-09-19, 12:02
More than possible I would think, considering that many people have no idea how the system works. I remember a woman on another site who only discovered when she was in her late 60s that she was adopted because she had only ever had a short birth certificate.
OC
You are right about people not knowing how the system works OC. I know my mother used to think that short certificates were issued to illegitimate people, whilst everyone else had a full cert!
Margaret in Burton
21-09-19, 12:35
I didn't think you could have a short birth cert any more?
My daughter and her partner are not married. When they went together to register the birth of my grandson, they were asked what surname the boy will use and that is what is on his (long) birth certificate.
Historically, I was born before there was a surname column on birth certificates. It was assumed by convention that you would use the surname of your father but that has never been compulsory. So I assume that the same question that is asked now, was asked then - what surname will the child use. (Where the parents were not married to each other).
OC
The short cert is the free one you get when you register a birth. The long cert you pay for. You can’t buy a short cert later.
When OH registered my eldest in 1984 he brought back a short cert, really pleased with himself as it was free. I burst into tears, baby blues probably. The midwife was at our house at the time and she sent him back to the register office with orders not to come back until he’d done it properly. He didn’t make the same mistake with the second daughter.
Margaret in Burton
21-09-19, 12:41
You are right about people not knowing how the system works OC. I know my mother used to think that short certificates were issued to illegitimate people, whilst everyone else had a full cert!
My mother in law insisted she only ever had the short cert and there couldn’t be one any different as she’d never had one. She also insisted she was born in a certain place as her cert just said Burton upon Trent. After she died father in law still insisted that she was born in this certain village, where she is buried, and that there wouldn’t be a different cert for her even though he had the full one himself.
I sent for her full cert. she was born in a the town centre of Burton not this village outside. Father in law refused to believe it was her cert even though the name, date and parents were correct because “she never had a certificate like that”.
Olde Crone
21-09-19, 13:20
I wonder what earthly use a short certificate would be nowadays, when you have to prove your identity back to Adam, practically. Seems a waste of paper to me.
I was once in an LDS family history centre when an elderly lady stomped in and demanded that the manager changed the date of her parents wedding because the original register made it look as if her parents had only been married for five months when she was born and that could not POSSIBLY be right, lol. With great presence of mind, the manager said she would have to get the church to correct the "mistake".
OC
lol that was quick thinking, OC. I wonder if she did approach the church?
Marg, I love the idea that the name, date and parents were correct but still the certificate was not the one!
Margaret in Burton
21-09-19, 13:49
I imagine they have to offer a free short cert at the time of registration as it is compulsory to register a birth but what if someone felt they didn’t have the money at the time.
As OC says though, it wouldn’t be a lot of use later in life and they’d have to buy the full one.
Merry, the cert couldn’t possibly be hers because she didn’t have one and the place of birth was wrong as she wasn’t born where it said she was.
Mother in law thought she was born at her paternal aunts house when in fact she was born at her paternal grandmothers house.
As hard as I tried I could not convince father in law that everyone had a cert like that but her parents obviously didn’t buy the full one.
kiterunner
21-09-19, 15:16
According to the Government website, you can still get a short birth cert when registering a birth, but you now have to pay full price for it:
https://www.gov.uk/register-birth/birth-certificates
Various local authority websites confirm that you do not get a free short cert any more.
Interesting that they are both the same price.
Margaret in Burton
21-09-19, 15:23
Interesting that they are both the same price.
Why would you buy the short one if it’s the same price unless to hide parentage?
As OC says though, it wouldn’t be a lot of use later in life and they’d have to buy the full one.
Well I've used my short certificate and had no issues with it. I had to prove identity when I started my current job this time last year. As I couldn't remember where the full birth cert was, I produced the short one which was accepted. It is still a legal certificate with your name and date of birth on.
Marg, I love the idea that the name, date and parents were correct but still the certificate was not the one!
I've heard sadder. That baby isn't mine, I'm having a girl. Said by mother still currently attached by the umbilical cord.
Oh Toni, how awful. Postpartum depression surely kicked in instantly there.
Olde Crone
22-09-19, 08:08
NickiP
A birth certificate (long or short) is not proof of identity, it says so on the bottom!
OC
Olde Crone
22-09-19, 08:21
Oh, that's odd! Was just checking something else on the new GRO site and it seems to suggest that short certificates are still available. "Short certificates are not available on line". However, it does not give any prices and doesn't mention short birth certificates again. Curious.
OC
Margaret in Burton
22-09-19, 14:49
Oh, that's odd! Was just checking something else on the new GRO site and it seems to suggest that short certificates are still available. "Short certificates are not available on line". However, it does not give any prices and doesn't mention short birth certificates again. Curious.
OC
OC
https://www.gov.uk/register-birth/birth-certificates
Olde Crone
22-09-19, 16:41
Thanks Marg, but I was looking at the new gro site for online ordering of historic certs. Sorry, can't do a link on this kindle!
OC
Margaret in Burton
22-09-19, 17:12
Thanks Marg, but I was looking at the new gro site for online ordering of historic certs. Sorry, can't do a link on this kindle!
OC
I think they are are only available at the point of registration but I may be wrong
As for your Kindle; when you access a site is there a rectangle with an arrow in it? There is on my iPad. Click on that and it should give you the option of copy link. Then paste on here or wherever
My Dad registered my birth and got a short cert, which I used when I got my first job. It was only when I started this genealogy lark that I got my long cert. Quite glad I did as it had an error on it, which had to be corrected by the superintendent registrar. My mother's middle name was Smoothy (her mother's maiden name) but the registrar had originally written Dorothy.
Olde Crone
22-09-19, 19:01
TestingOrdering offline (by telephone or post) only
The following certificates are not available to order online and, as such, will not be subject to the telephone or postal certificate application fee.
Short or abridged versions of certificates (apart from short adoption certificates, which can be ordered online)
A presumed death certificate
A certificate from the Abandoned Children's Register
A certificate from the Parental Order Register and
A certificate from the Gender Recognition Registers
Olde Crone
22-09-19, 19:03
Oh wow! Thankyou SO MUCH, Marg. I have had this kindle three and a half years and never knew you could do that.
OC
Margaret in Burton
22-09-19, 19:38
Oh wow! Thankyou SO MUCH, Marg. I have had this kindle three and a half years and never knew you could do that.
OC
It should give you other options too like print, share to facebook or wherever
Oh Toni, how awful. Postpartum depression surely kicked in instantly there.
I think so or very much wanted a girl.
Thanks Marg, but I was looking at the new gro site for online ordering of historic certs. Sorry, can't do a link on this kindle!
OC
Well it was, and has been previously, been accepted as proof of identity with other documentation. I thought the original ones were considered that.
Olde Crone
28-09-19, 21:13
NickiP, no, birth certificates say on the bottom that they are not proof of identity but this whole "proof of identity" thing is a bit of a farce I think. Someone on another site, who was adopted at birth, was asked to provide his original birth certificate instead of his adoption certificate. When he refused, the job offer was withdrawn. Yet my passport is out of date, but I was able to prove my identity with my bus pass, lol.
OC
Janet in Yorkshire
01-10-19, 09:41
Proof of identity seems to differ according to need.
Yesterday I went to the travel agent for some Euros. I've dealt with them before, but the computer was playing up and wouldn't bring up my details (arranged by post code.) I offered my passport as photo ID, but that didn't give my address, nor did my bus pass. Third time lucky, I managed to unearth my driving licence and when the address details were entered again the computer played ball and I was able to get my currency.
(Such a faff now the banks, in their wisdom, have closed their branches in many small towns and moved accounts to places further away and more difficult to get to. There is a post office facility in my village, two hours a week, but often the internet connection fails and so transactions cannot be done. What should be a simple few minutes job in the local high street can now require up to half a day :( )
Jay
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