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Hi!
My name is Svein Korsvold. I am doing Research for a book on Thomas William Murray, born April 10 1889 in Preston UK. He was one of the first Marconists. Employed by the Marconi Company in 1911. Sailed as a Wireless operator during WW1. Moved to the US around 1920. Worked for the Federal Government as an undercover agent against the mafia. Witness in the case against Mafia boss Johnny Torrio in NY in 1939. In December 1939 he takes a job as a radio operator on the Norwegian ship Songa. They are torpedoed outside Ireland on January 22. The crew is taken to Norway, where he, after the invasion on April 9, helps Norwegian resistance with transmissions to the UK. He Escapes to Shetland in early July, and in 1941 he is recruited by the MI6. He died in 1949.
This is all documented, but need help on the following matters:
1. Before joining the Marconi company in 1911 he worked in India according to himself. Employed by the Government.Stationed at Montgomery in the Scinde district. Where can I find additional information, and is it possible du find out when he left the UK, and when he returned?
2. After he escaped Norway in 1940 we think he went to Australia for a few months before joining the MI6. Can anyone help with ship and departure date?
3. Finally: According to information we got he taught wireless at the Curragh Army camp at a very young age. In what archive can I find further proof on this matter?
Thank you in advance!
Svein Korsvold
Bergen, Norway
I know this is not what you are asking about, but we need to make sure we are looking at the right person as the name Thomas Murray isn't uncommon.
Birth registration:
MURRAY, THOMAS WILLIAM
mother's maiden surname PARK
GRO Reference: 1889 J Quarter in PRESTON Volume 08E Page 596
Parents marriage:
Marriages Jun 1888
Murray John Preston 8e 881
PARK Sarah Preston 8e 881
1891 Census:
163 Ribbleton Lane Preston:
John Murray head married 25 pavior and drainer born Lancashire Pendleton
Sarah Murray wife married 27 born Lancashire Preston
Thos W Murray son single 2 born Lancashire Preston
Winifred Murray dau single 4 months born Lancashire Preston
1901 Census
32 Everton Gardens Preston:
John Murray head married 35 pavior and drainer born Lancs Pendleton
Sarah Murray wife married 37 born Lancs Preston
Thomas Murray son 11 born Lancs Preston
Winifred Murray dau 11 born Lancs Preston
Margaret M Murray 8 born Lancs Preston
Isabella T Murray 4 born Lancs Preston
By 1911 Sarah had died:
Deaths Jun 1902
Murray Sarah 39 Preston 8e 367
and John was living with his unmarried sister. John said he and Sarah had 8 children, four of whom were still living at the date of the 1911 census. None of the four are with him in 1911.
I can't see any ship passenger list entry between 1901 and 1911 for this Thomas travelling to India. There are a few shortly after 1911 but where occupation is mentioned they don't sound like him at all (jute worker).
In 1911 there's a private in the army stationed at either Egypt, Sierra Leone, South Africa or Sudan named Thomas Murray aged 23 born Preston and another man, same age and birthplace, boarding in Kirkham Lancashire who is a coachman. If he was in India at this date then neither of these men are him.
This is definitely the right man:
Britain, Merchant Seamen, 1918-1941
First name(s) Thomas William
Last name Murray
Event year 1918
Birth year 1889
Birth place Preston
Birth county/country Lancashire
Birth date 10 Apr 1889
Discharge number 908377
Identity certificate number 210235
Card type CR10
Archive The National Archives
Series BT350
Date range 1918-1921
BT350 Date range 1918-1921
Record set Britain, Merchant Seamen, 1918-1941
Category Education & work
Subcategory Merchant Navy & Maritime
Collections from Great Britain, UK None
re your questions 2 and 3:
I can't see any passenger list entries for him between the UK and Australia within the dates you mention (these are the only records I have access to, but others may have more).
Re Curragh Army camp - Do you know if he was a civilian employed there? I have no idea whether any records survive, but you could try the military archives in Dublin - they might have some general information:
Officer In Charge
Military Archives
Cathal Brugha Bks
Rathmines
Dublin 6
Ireland
Thank you!
He was indeed the son of John and Sarah.
We got his records from MI6 as well as the Marconi Company. First wife, Agnes, and children lost contact with him when he worked for the Federal Government in the US in the 1930s. They did't know what happened to him until our research revealed his whereabouts in Bergen, Norway in 1940. We also found that he married again in the UK during the war. New wife: Dorothy inman. We got his medal cards etc from KEW. Do you think he has any living family in the UK, and what happened to his new wife after his death in 1949?
Thank you for Your time!
Regards
Svein Korsvold
kiterunner
27-08-19, 13:08
This is the probate info from 1949:
MURRAY Thomas William of 22 Westbury-grove Leeds 10 died 27 May 1949 at St James Hospital Leeds 9 Administration Wakefield 15 July to Dorothy Murray widow. Effects £474 18s 10d.
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=murray&yearOfDeath=1949&page=6#calendar
That is correct. We have got a copy of the Death certificate.
Any information appreciated!
Svein
kiterunner
27-08-19, 13:41
I don't know whether you have seen this family tree on ancestry?
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/86315058/person/46539863711/facts
If not, then it might be worth you contacting the tree owner.
That tree shows the second marriage as 1 Nov 1944 Bletchley, Buckinghamshire, which doesn't quite fit with Thomas William Murray / Dorothy Inman or Loomes, Jan-Mar 1944 North Bucks, but I wonder whether they meant 11 Jan 1944 and ancestry has misunderstood a date of 1/11/1944 written in the American way? Anyway, unfortunately the tree doesn't give any info on the second wife, but I should think this is the correct marriage.
Dorothy Loomes married Joseph W Inman in 1932, Wakefield district, Yorkshire, and this is her on the 1939 Register:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/61596/tna_r39_3488_3488g_004/21302046?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdbid%3d61596%26gsfn%3ddorothy%26gs ln%3dmurr*y%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln_x%3d1%26cp%3d0%26g skw%3dinman%26gskw_x%3d1%26hc%3d20%26new%3d1%26ran k%3d1%26uidh%3dvm5%26redir%3dfalse%26msT%3d1&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
21 Westbury Terr, Leeds
Henry Loomes born 9 Jul 1873
Martha Loomes born 14 Oct 1873
Wilfred Loomes born 9(?) Dec 1911
Dorothy Inman born 24 Apr 1903. Inman is crossed out and Murray written in.
There is a death for Dorothy Murray Jul 1990 Leeds, date of birth 24 Apr 1903. I can't find a probate entry for her, and it doesn't look as though she had any children, or at least not born in England and Wales.
can see only one Thomas Murray entering Australia in the time frame suggested....from Genoa. https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=12135672&S=7
From The World's News in Sydney Australia 15 February 1941:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/139904471
We know he arrived at Lerwick, Shetland on July 3 1940. Previous in the same year he was on the Songa, and in Bergen.
On June 28 1941 he signed on With the MI6. He probably went to Australia somewhere between those two dates. Maybe as radio operator on a ship, or as an ordinary passenger.
Your effort is much appreciated!
Regards
Svein Korsvold
kiterunner
27-08-19, 15:22
This isn't one of the dates you are looking for, but he does mention the Huayna in that article - a crew list from 1913:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2364/32168_100000_1444-00152?pid=1552736&treeid=86315058&personid=46539863711&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx18177&_phstart=successSource
Liverpool to Iquitos. The ship's doctor seems to have survived the voyage though.
T W Murray, age 25, born Preston, home address Baltic Villa, Sandy Rd, Seaforth. Telegraphist. The previous ship is hard to make out - possibly Eugenia?
From The World's News in Sydney Australia 15 February 1941:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/139904471
We know he arrived at Lerwick, Shetland on July 3 1940. Previous in the same year he was on the Songa, and in Bergen.
On June 28 1941 he signed on With the MI6. He probably went to Australia somewhere between those two dates. Maybe as radio operator on a ship, or as an ordinary passenger.
Your effort is much appreciated!
Regards
Svein Korsvold
Given that the 'Remo' docked in Fremantle 4 Feb 1940, I guess that could be your man. He seems to have led a 'Boys Own' lifestyle :rolleyes:
Thank you!
We got some of the ships he worked from 1911 to 1920, but far from complete.
If you could find him on other crewlists we would be very thankful!
Have some of his early postings from the Marconist Magazine, but need more to complete the story. WW1 postings are of special interest! We have some from the 1915 crewlists, and we know that he was 1.telegraphist on the Empress of Britain during her voyage to the Dardanelles from May 1915.
kiterunner
27-08-19, 15:50
Not many crew lists are online yet, unfortunately.
This man is almost like Forrest Gump :) Close to so many historical moments from WW1 to the end of WW2. Most is documented now, only these loose ends left.
The Songa was torpedoed on Januar 22 1940. Murray is interviewed by different English and Irish newspapers. A colorful person! Shortly after being torpedoed he boarded another Norwegian ship as radio operator. He finished this assignment in late March or early April, and arrived in Bergen on April 6 1940. His trip to Australia was either very short, or took place after July 3 1940 :)
Do you have this one.....15 Dec 1938, 'Daisy G', Belize Br Honduras to Tampa Florida?
https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/8842/m1844_60-0251?pid=2101805&backurl=https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D8842%26h%3D2101805%26ti d%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DCRL5927%2 6_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=CRL5927&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.139594039.564161395.1566910794-1216641153.1428515209
'Adriatic', Liverpool to New York , 12 Aug 1918
https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/7488/NYT715_2591-0799?pid=4042110322&backurl=https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid%3D7488%26h%3D4042110322%26indiv%3Dtry %26o_vc%3DRecord:OtherRecord%26rhSource%3D8842&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.93949209.564161395.1566910794-1216641153.1428515209
I guess you have his US WWI draft reg card.
https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/6482/005274083_04736?pid=34105913&backurl=https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid%3D6482%26h%3D34105913%26indiv%3Dtry%2 6o_vc%3DRecord:OtherRecord%26rhSource%3D7488&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.100901765.564161395.1566910794-1216641153.1428515209
anne fraser
28-08-19, 07:18
I don't know if he is your man but there is a service record for a Thomas William Murray at Bletchley Park (look up veterans on website ). They employed wireless operators as well as code breakers.
Thank you for your effort!
We got his US draft registration card, and the passenger manifest from his trip from Belize.
After MI6 released his service record we informed Bletchley Park :)
We need his India connection from around 1910, his stay at the Curragh army camp, some of his assignments at sea during WW1 and when/why he went for a short trip to Australia in late 1940 or early 1941.
Regards
Svein Korsvold
This isn't one of the dates you are looking for, but he does mention the Huayna in that article - a crew list from 1913:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2364/32168_100000_1444-00152?pid=1552736&treeid=86315058&personid=46539863711&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx18177&_phstart=successSource
Liverpool to Iquitos. The ship's doctor seems to have survived the voyage though.
T W Murray, age 25, born Preston, home address Baltic Villa, Sandy Rd, Seaforth. Telegraphist. The previous ship is hard to make out - possibly Eugenia?
I think this is Elizabeth.
This man is almost like Forrest Gump :) Close to so many historical moments from WW1 to the end of WW2. Most is documented now, only these loose ends left.
The Songa was torpedoed on Januar 22 1940. Murray is interviewed by different English and Irish newspapers. A colorful person! Shortly after being torpedoed he boarded another Norwegian ship as radio operator. He finished this assignment in late March or early April, and arrived in Bergen on April 6 1940. His trip to Australia was either very short, or took place after July 3 1940 :)
Perhaps he never went to Australia. His story could have been picked up by
any number of newspapers looking for a good story. Where was the original printed?
It was printed in Sydney, Australia. He also gave an interview to True magazine in the US. Probably late 1939, after he was a witness against mafia boss Johnny Torrio in the 1939 trial. He sure was a rare breed! A secret agent with a sense for publicity! And then the MI6 took him in! I have the article from True on a PDF. Is it possible to upload it here?
Svein
kiterunner
28-08-19, 15:04
You wouldn't be able to upload it onto this site but you can post a link to it if you can upload it somewhere else.
If anyone wishes to read about him in True Magazine from 1940 just send me a private message, and I will email it to you :)
A few additional questions:
In his application for the MI6 under schools it says: 1900-1904 St. Ignatius grammar, Leyland and from 1904-1909 Wellington House (Private) Any information on these schools. Do they exist today? And do they have an archive so far back in time?
He also have a 1.class wireless operator PMG certificate. Any way we can trace this and find out where and when he was certified? Must have been before 1911 when he joined the Marconi company.
Svein
If it was this Wellington House, in Westgate, survivng records sound extremely unlikely: https://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent/news/canings-and-compulsory-daily-runs---welcome-a104348/
Olde Crone
28-08-19, 21:49
St Ignatius has a facebook page, perhaps someone can help on there? There is also a St Ignatius Coloege in London which was previously a grammar school.
OC
kiterunner
28-08-19, 22:32
If St Ignatius Grammar, Leyland, comes under Preston, then the records are held at Lancashire Archives:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/e5158867-7c8a-425d-80a3-ffcaed5da2be
Here is the entry in the actual Lancashire Archives catalogue, which may be more useful:
http://archivecat.lancashire.gov.uk/calmview/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=SMPR&pos=29
The entries you want would be number 8 and number 22 - if this is the right school!
If this is the right St Ignatius, he might be shown here:
https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-schoolchildren-at-st-ignatius-school-preston-1904-1904-online
Thank you for your help everybody!
And truly amazing if we can find him on film! Unfortunately I am not allowed to open it from Norway. Any chance it can be downloaded and sent via E-mail?
Svein
Looking at the website, I think that we would be in breach of copyright rules if we attempted to forward information like that.
A new mystery to solve for the sharp brains here!
The famous Malcolm Munthe Writes in his book Sweet is war about a meeting he had with Thomas Murray in Bergen 1940 when they both tried to flee the country. Munthe got help from the American Consulate in Bergen. An employee named Mrs. Harvey who had a scottich accent, was very helpful. She was married to an English businessman, Frank Harvey, who was imprisoned by the Germans at a nearby army camp. Her first name may be Constance
Any chance of solving this one?
Regards
Svein Korsvold
kiterunner
30-08-19, 14:09
What exactly do you want to find out?
Who they were :) When and where they were born. When they married, and if possible: What happened to them later in the war. Was he released? Or sent to Germany perhaps. Was she Arrested, and if not why? American Passport maybe?
Regards
Svein
I think I might have him. He was captured in Bergen, Norway 1940. Found him on German documents from Bergen in April 1940. Can I use this information from British archives to find his full name, date of birth, if and when he was sent home etc? Found him on FO 916/2568. Captured civilians desiring repatriation to Britain in 1940
Regards
Svein
Are you referring to Frank Harvey?
kiterunner
31-08-19, 09:19
I think I might have him. He was captured in Bergen, Norway 1940. Found him on German documents from Bergen in April 1940. Can I use this information from British archives to find his full name, date of birth, if and when he was sent home etc? Found him on FO 916/2568. Captured civilians desiring repatriation to Britain in 1940
Regards
Svein
Did you find it on Findmypast? And if so, doesn't FMP give any information on how to view the full document, if you can?
I did find this in TNA's catalogue which may be the same person, but if so, not much help apart from the year of birth, since it says closed till 2021:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C16940578
kiterunner
31-08-19, 09:26
Sorry, I should add that I first looked for FO916/2568 on TNA's catalogue and each item that it came up with said "This is available to download from Findmypast". It seems that the FMP database is Prisoners of War 1715-1945 and that database has a few entries for people called Frank Harvey in World War 2, so you would need to view each one to see if he is included.
Got him :)
Frank Cecil Harvey born May 11 1886. Married Constance Drennen in 1916. According to newspapers from 1944 he was exchanged With German POW.
Didn't find much on Constance though. Any thoughts?
Svein
Death:
Constance A S Harvey b abt 1889 Apr 1964 Apr-May-Jun New Forest Hampshire
1911 Census For England & Wales
23 Elms Road Clapham S W, Wandsworth Borough, London & Surrey
Constance Adelaide Stevenson Drennan
Sister (of James Edward Drennan b 1883 Trinidad)
Single
Female
22
Typist And Stenographer
born Trinidad B E S Resident
There's a whole lot of siblings on this census. Their mother is widow Jessie Drennan 55 b Ayr Scotland. Their father died between 1901 and 1911. He was James Drennan aged 55 in 1901. Born Wallacetown Ayr Scotland
There is a notice about their Silver Wedding Anniversary (England, Andrews Newspaper Index Cards, 1790-1976):
11.11.41
Silver Wedding
HARVEY : DRENNAN
On Nov. 11 1916, at Grafton Square Congregational Church, Clapham, FRANK CECIL HARVEY, Lt., South Staffs Regt. (present address Ilag VIII, Germany), to CONSTANCE ADELAIDE STEVENSON, daughter of the late JAMES DRENNAN, Esq., JP., and Mrs. Drennan, of Trinidad, B.W.I., and Edinburgh.
Thank you all!
Your effort is much appreciated!
She was a typist, stenographer. Any idea what his occupation was?
Svein
Got him :)
Frank Cecil Harvey born May 11 1886. Any idea what his occupation was?
Svein
Here is his birth reg telling us the area he was born:
Births Jun 1886
HARVEY Frank Cecil Hackney 1b 456
He was baptised 6 Jun 1886 at St Andrew's Stoke Newington, parents George Alfred (law clerk) and Alice Amelia of 7 Martaban Road, Stoke Newington
On the 1911 census he is:
Walden Road, Hornchurch, Essex
Frank Cecil Harvey son, single, 25, shipping clerk, born Stoke Newington, London
Parents George Alfred and Alice Amelia.
(his father and employed siblings are all clerks of one sort or another)
Olde Crone
01-09-19, 08:39
A typist stenographer was a typist who could transcribe shorthand. More commonly known as a shorthand typist and once a very common occupation for females. Almost extinct now.
OC
Olde Crone
04-09-19, 13:37
I have realised that my post about stenographers is an over simplification really. I had forgotten that a stenograph machine is a kind of typewriter which produces shorthand which is later typed up into normal script.
Shorthand (the manually drawn sort)would normally be used in an office environment for taking dictation. Stenographers would work in say, a courtroom, recording everything that was said by various parties rather than taking one to one dictation.
Prompted by a programme I have just watched, the thought entered my head that this lady may have worked in some sort of secret capacity but that may just be my over active imagination!
OC
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