German PoW Document - Need Help to Translate

[BlueSavannah]

Hi,

I have just come across this document today on FindmyPast relating to O (Oliver) Johnson who is the first name on the document:

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM/ICRC/R/174930

The date of the document at the top is 21st January 1918 and suggests that Oliver was a PoW.

My problem is that Oliver is supposed to have died on the 27th November 1917 so seeing this document is a shock to me.

Is there anyone with any German translating skills that could help me in understanding what the first paragraph above Oliver's name and reg number actually says? Its only on the image and not the FMP translation.

Many thanks
Claire

[Phoenix]

I don't have any German, but I suspect that Totenliste means a list of the dead.

[BlueSavannah]

Thank you Phoenix. Just Googled that word and does indeed translate to Death Roll.

But do you think this means that rather than 'missing assumed dead' which is on his army record (and family have believed since WW1), that actually he was taken as a PoW and died in a camp?

[Phoenix]

You are going to need someone with decent German and historical knowledge on this. It might mean simply that his dog-tag was found. The fact that there was a list, published by FMP, suggests that the information was passed on to the British. And, one would have hoped, on to the next of kin.

[kiterunner]

I would love to help but don't have an FMP sub at the moment, sorry.

[BlueSavannah]

Thank you. I am finding myself trying to google each word and trying to make some sort of sense out of it. I am also re-looking through Oliver's army record which survived but is badly burnt so a lot is difficult to read.

His army records confirm him missing on the 27th November 1917 and that ultimately is his presumed date of death as far as the army was concerned. He has 'assumed dead' written over the first page of his records. Interestingly though, one of the documents is a note that says that Oliver was on an official list of the dead which has been received from Germany. The note suggests they were to contact his wife to see if there was any contact with Oliver to try and decide if the communication they had received was enough to decide he was dead. The next page was a reply from his wife but is unreadable to I can only assume she had said there had been no contact.

The PoW document link...I managed to translate the Zentral Nachweisburo part which said it was a Red Cross organisation which aimed to link PoWs with their loved ones. I can't work out if this Red Cross Totenliste document is the same document the army were relating to in his army records when they said they had received a list of dead from Germany.

I've always known from family stories that Oliver was lost assumed dead and his records seemed to back that up. This almost seems to give me the ultimate confirmation that he did actually die when he was assumed to have. Although now i am not so sure on the actual date of death and did he ever become a PoW, albeit briefly before dying.

[Merry]

For Kate!

https://bthkew.bl.files.1drv.com/y4m9rheaSBXSDiUMS3r7uvNwd6gOVDlcYDByjdJAINZWxZct5K UpAzQXPo29JMCD5TU3uslzf-27zdsY5TxStmQIVqfL8Tjce9qiPMeEEhD7wBgAezBTVdBWTZ9E 1U6V42vPgqwtjhooRD9efdmtBW-_ECct_U8EJCIKG8JGaslt-fxTHNPXzmFRtURHb2QjY46QbbCzfxaCR_swnl3i0A69w?width =660&height=216&cropmode=none

[BlueSavannah]

Thank you Merry for posting the image for Kate. I still can never remember how to do this.

For Kate!

https://bthkew.bl.files.1drv.com/y4m9rheaSBXSDiUMS3r7uvNwd6gOVDlcYDByjdJAINZWxZct5K UpAzQXPo29JMCD5TU3uslzf-27zdsY5TxStmQIVqfL8Tjce9qiPMeEEhD7wBgAezBTVdBWTZ9E 1U6V42vPgqwtjhooRD9efdmtBW-_ECct_U8EJCIKG8JGaslt-fxTHNPXzmFRtURHb2QjY46QbbCzfxaCR_swnl3i0A69w?width =660&height=216&cropmode=none

[kiterunner]

Thanks. This is my attempt at it:

Central Proof Office
English 21.1.18
List of the dead
Below listed identity disks which were removed from the fallen in Bourlon Wood, went from an intelligence officer through s.l (Central Office of Estates) without further information.

[BlueSavannah]

Thank you Kate, that's really interesting. I guess this suggests my Gx2 grandfather was just left in Bourlon Forest which is why he has no actual grave and headstone :(

I am confused though to how this information has come from a German document that is listed in the PoW records when he doesn't appear to have been a PoW. Would it have been a German officer who took the identity disks of the fallen?

Thanks. This is my attempt at it:

Central Proof Office
English 21.1.18
List of the dead
Below listed identity disks which were removed from the fallen in Bourlon Forest, went from an intelligence officer through s.l (Central Office of Estates) without further information.

[kiterunner]

Have corrected Bourlon Forest to Bourlon Wood in my translation since that seems to be the name used in info about WW1.

There is some info about bodies at Bourlon Wood and on WW1 battlefields in general here:
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/burial-clearance-and-burial/