View Full Version : DNA may not lie
but it doesn't necessarily help with the truth.
I have a Thruline suggestion for my 5g grandfather. Twice now, because I forgot I'd done it years ago, I have disproved that he is my 5g grandfather but I can't prove who IS the father of my 4g grandmother.
However a new match has thrown up a curve ball. The match is a direct descendant, down a male line, of the 5g grandfather. She does not have my 4g grandmother in her tree.
If anyone wants to check my work and tell me if they think I am right, or wrong, please do.
David Simpson (my 3g grandfather) was baptised 1/3/1815 St Peter, Bradford, Yorkshire, father Richard Simpson, cordwainer. Not that it matters but he married Sarah Eastwood 24/9/1843 Keele, Staffordshire.
I believe my Richard married Susannah Wilkinson on 3/9/1810 at St Peter Bradford. Susannah was a spinster.
They had 2 other children John bap 3/7/1811 and Mary 11/12/1812.
I believe my Richard died 1833 in Bradford, I am unsure about Susannah.
Thrulines says Susannah's father is William Speight. There is a Richard Simpson who married a Susananh Speight in 1812 at Campsall York, according to familysearch. This couple, according to FMP, had children Elizabeth 1816, John 1819, Sarah 1821, William 1823, Richard 1826, Maria 1828 and James 1830 all bapt Arksey. That Richard was alive on the 1841 and 1851 census. That Richard is conveniently also a cordwainer.
I have further notes :
FP (FMP typo??) also have a record for a Richard who married a Susannah Lawd, Lowe or Laird, spinster, writing is hard to read in 1811 at Sheffield.
For reasons I decided not to share with myself I thought this couple were not contenders. I can't remember if this Richard was a cordwainer or not. If not that might have been why had I discounted him.
My DNA match says Willim Speight had a son Matthew through which the match is descended.
If anyone wants to play I'd be grateful. I'm off to bed now I've written it out. Hopefully an idea will come overnight.
I don't trust the three public trees I find with Susannah Speight, as they seem wildly speculative.
However, you already have people travelling large distances. I don't know that part of the world, nor its geography, but Bradford to Keele looks a fair old trudge, so Richard could have travelled as far as David.
Putting the correct details in my tree has knocked out quite a few "common ancestors".
I suppose the question is, do you or any of your family, share matches with this person?
kiterunner
02-08-19, 14:45
The couple who married in 1812 would likely have had some children before 1816, so maybe if we could find baptisms for those children, we could rule that couple out?
I haven't been able to find any Kate. Unless you count my 3 to my Richard. Then it could work, except they had children before marriage, which I know happens.
Rechecking the thrulines this morning, there is an issue. Another match I know of, who is descended from my David who married Sarah Eastwood, is showing up in a strange way. The woman at Susannah's level on thrulines is private but is coming up as a different person to Susannah, although she is then descended from David.
The match descended from William Speight has no shared matches with me. I'm wondering if it is a mismatch. It is very low cms. I think ancestry just tacked her on as the tree fits.
However another match that is stronger also claims William Speight as Susanna's father. I think I might have to contact her again to see why she thinks that.
My other theory is that William is not the direct line ancestor but a brother to them and William's father is my 6g grandfather. So an unknown female Speight married an unknown Wilkinson. I haven't looked into this though so it could be pure fantasty.
Phoenix I have a few lines move from Yorkshire to Staffordshire, no idea why and it seems to be a lone member on each line. However once they made the move they stayed in a fairly small geographical location. David's father-in-law also made the move but years earlier. He was also from Bradford so maybe David knew him or the Eastwood family prior to his move.
I have only just started to have a look at this, but it prompts me to tell you of my own problem with Sarah Wilford.
Sarah's family was non-conformist and some family trees give her father as Benjamin or William. We know Sarah married John Iliffe in 1816 at Kilsby Northamptonshire. So both Benjamin and William's daughters (bap 1798 and 1800) would have been minors in 1816. There is no notation in the marriage register that she was a minor so we are thinking she WAS over 21 when she married. So it is more likely that she is the daughter of Charles Wilford.
Proving it with DNA is another task, now. Very few Wilford descendants have DNA and enough of a family tree to help with this.
So, with Richard Simpson(s) and his wives - you have tracked them down for baptisms ? I think you need to nail down possible baptisms for Richard, and Susannah (Wilkinson and Speight). In my research, I found that many men did not marry until their late 20s or early 30s, depending on their circumstances and most women seem to have been around 25, rather than 20 or 21. Cordwainers, as tradesmen, don't seem to have married young (still being apprenticed).
Also how old was Susannah when her last child was born - I put the average age at 43, (unless they died in childbirth), which often puts their date of birth back a few years (from married at 21).
What year was Matthew Speight baptised ? Does this correlate to Susannah's dates that you know?
I agree with Kiterunner, 4 years between marriage and first child IS a long gap which you would not expect, given that they then had children for another 15 years.
FreeREG (Bishops Transcripts) says of the marriage of Richard Simpson and Susannah Speight in Campsall, the grooms abode was Arksey. Their child Maria was buried at age 11 in 1840. Also burials in Arksey for Richard in 1858 and Susannah in 1865 (though the burial age puts Richards birth about 1792 and Susannahs as 1789).
Could they have spent a few years in Bradford before moving back to Arksey?
Don't know if this helps at all, but its a place to start. I cant seem to find registers for St Peters Bradford.
Di
Mary from Italy
03-08-19, 11:45
I cant seem to find registers for St Peters Bradford.
St Peter's is Bradford Cathedral. The PRs are in Ancestry's West Yorkshire collection.
Thanks for your input Di. Bradford registers are on Ancestry under the West Yorkshire Church of England registers but I have had to search the card catalogue for West Yorkshire to get them to appear lately.
The Richard I believe is mine died in 1833 in Bradford aged 44. I have his baptism as 1785, which means he lost a few years when he died, and for that baptism his father was also Richard. No mother mentioned. That puts his age at 25 when he married.
I have no idea on Susannah's birth or death. I have found a baptism in 1785 in Bradford for a Susannah Wilkinson, father Thomas, but I have no idea if it is her. Given I have no other possible baptisms noted I suspect it was the only baptism that looked reasonable. I also have no idea on her death. There is one in 1847, in Horton Yorkshire but for reasons unknown I have noted I don't think it was her.
I might have to start over for Richard too. I did all this years ago and while I don't doubt myself I didn't make enough notes of my decisions so I don't know why I think what I do.
There is one in 1847, in Horton Yorkshire but for reasons unknown I have noted I don't think it was her.
Perhaps she didn't look right in 1841?
I think so Merry, also Horton is unfamiliar to me.
There is an 1841 entry with a Francis Simpson who I originally thought was her, then I changed my mind and now need to have another look at as I can't decide or not. I don't think the Francis fits in properly with the Francis I have so I need to see if I can find an alternative for him too.
I did all this years ago and while I don't doubt myself I didn't make enough notes of my decisions so I don't know why I think what I do.
I know that feeling. I keep promising myself I will make better notes and sources.
Thrulines says Susannah's father is William Speight. There is a Richard Simpson who married a Susananh Speight in 1812 at Campsall York, according to familysearch. This couple, according to FMP, had children Elizabeth 1816, John 1819, Sarah 1821, William 1823, Richard 1826, Maria 1828 and James 1830 all bapt Arksey. That Richard was alive on the 1841 and 1851 census. That Richard is conveniently also a cordwainer.
On the 1851 census this Susannah says she was born about 1789 in Clayton in the Clay, Yorks.
There's a baptism on FMP at Frickley with Clayton for a Susana Spight (sic) in 1788 and one for a Matthew Speight the following year, both with father William.
I'm not 100% sure Clayton in the Clay and Frickley with Clayton are the same place, but they probably are. I would also suggest you double check the dates of the baptisms as there were several versions of each of them and the dates seemed to vary between 1788 and 1789, making me confused as to whether they are siblings or not (the dates of birth are included on some of the baptism records).
I checked Parloc and it has the parish Clayton with Frickley just to make life more complicated lol. Google says Clayton in the Clay is near Barnsley. Parloc says Barnsley and Clayton with Frickley are 6.9 miles apart. But knowing how this is all so confusing she probably just said Clayton and the enumerator chose the one they knew.
The online trees do have a sibling Matthew for Susannah Speight although one has him immigrating to the US and one has him living and dying in Yorkshire.
I typed the above up and forgot to post so a few hours later I've re-checked the baptisms. I truly think there are 2 couples - my Richard and the Richard from Bentley. My Richard has a son John in 1811 and the other Richard a son John in 1819. I can't find a death for the 1811 John, otherwise I could, maybe, be persuaded my David's Richard moved to Bentley and his mother was Susannah Speight. I can't identify children for the second couple before 1816.
I don't think the Francis fits in properly with the Francis I have
What are the details of the Frances you have?
The Francis at Horton is the son of Richard a shoemaker, according to his marriage cert (married Hannah Hebblethwaite 1849 at Bradford cathedral).
I think Francis who married Hannah Hebblethwaite is actually the son of Richard's brother, William. If the Francis in the 1841 census belongs to Richard and Susannah I haven't been able to find a birth.
I look at the 1841 census now and can't see why I think the Susan isn't mine. It would tie in nicely with the baptism for a Susan Wilkinson. It is possible I looked at it and thought it was mother and son, except that I can't see that I can't find a birth, so discounted it. William had 10 children, Richard 3, so maybe William offloaded Francis.
I heard back from someone else who is looking into this family and she had William Speight as the father of Susannah. I asked her why she thought that as I couldn't work it out and I had seen the Susannah Wilkinson marriage. She has had a quick look and now thinks Speight is wrong too. She thought she had a census with both families but can't find it. So my confusion is contagious. lol
Comparing the 1841 census with Susan Simpson and Francis Simpson, it is definitely the same Susan who died in 1847. They were both at Portland St. In 1841 Susan is 50 (+/- 5 years). In 1847 in the newspaper (The Bradford & Wakefield Observer) and burial register she is 61. It must have been a tough 6 years.
I think Francis who married Hannah Hebblethwaite is actually the son of Richard's brother, William. If the Francis in the 1841 census belongs to Richard and Susannah I haven't been able to find a birth.
So, a mistake for father's name on Francis's marriage cert? And a mistake for father's occupation as William was a mason? And Francis is living with his uncle's widow in 1841 and not his parents?
Having said that, I can't see any other outcome for Francis who was the son of William and Rebecca!
EDIT Francis and Hannah named a daughter Susannah too, but no Rebecca!
Maybe the vicar made mistakes at Francis's baptism?!!!
I think Richard and William's father was also Richard and I don't know his occupation.
I dd think it was a mistake at the wedding and the uncle was recorded as the father. When I think it is my family, I just think Francis was living with Susannah.
Do you think he is their child?
I need to go out. I'll look more closely later.
I don't know. Perhaps Francis was brought up by his uncle and Susannah from a young age for some reason? Even so, to put the name of a long dead uncle on the marriage cert seems quite a step when your father and mother are still alive and living in the same area. Obviously still possible though. Maybe Francis wasn't told Richard and Susannah were not his biological parents?
I wonder if the minister just made a mistake if Francis had just always lived with Susannah, and Richard when he was alive?
Though Bradford was hardly a village, so I would have been surprised if the vicar would remember Richard who died years before!
There was a turnover of ministers. In 1827 Francis was born, 1833 Richard died, 1847 Susannah died, 1849 Francis married - 4 different people performed the ceremony.
Just double checked. I definitely can't find a Francis to Richard and Susannah.
No, and the one baptism there is fits nicely between the other children of Wm and Rebecca. What years were Ric and Susanna's children baptised?
John 1811
Mary 1812
David 1815
I have no idea what happened to Mary. John may have become a tailor and moved to London. I had deleted the census records, so I may have decided at some point the evidence was too flimsy.
David is my 3g grandfather.
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