View Full Version : DNA Testing recommendations?
Hi,
Which are the best companies for genealogical DNA testing in the UK please?
Also, are there books or guides to navigate newbs through all the technical terms which DNA test results may come with?
Many thanks :)
kiterunner
02-06-19, 15:11
Ancestry is the best one if you want to see who your DNA matches with, and they currently have a special offer on DNA tests - 25% off until 12th June. £59 + £9.99 shipping.
Hopefully if you click on the link below it will take you to their home page and there will be a box with the 25% discount offer:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/
When you get your DNA results, you will be able to download your raw DNA data from Ancestry and there are various other sites that you can upload it to such as My Heritage, Family Tree DNA, etc, where you may find more matches who didn't come up on Ancestry. But if you take your test with one of those companies instead, Ancestry doesn't allow uploads from them, which is why it's best to do it that way round.
If you use Findmypast you have probably seen that they have a partnership with a company called Living DNA, which is supposed to give the most accurate regional breakdown of "ethnicity estimates" within the UK, but unfortunately they are not coming up with many actual DNA matches (or any at all, in many cases) at the moment so I would not recommend them. But again, you can upload the DNA data from Ancestry to Living DNA anyway.
kiterunner
02-06-19, 15:13
As for books or guides, the family history magazines tend to have regular articles for those new to DNA testing. Maybe someone else on here can recommend a book?
Many thanks Kiterunner,
What level of membership do you require at Ancestry to access results from their DNA kit please?
What's a GEDmatch - do all companies give those :confused:
:)
kiterunner
02-06-19, 15:46
You don't need an ancestry subscription to access the results from their DNA test, but it helps if you want to be able to do family tree research as well.
GEDMatch - now called Genesis - is another website which you can upload your raw DNA data to and compare it with other people who have done the same, but unlike the rest, it wasn't started as a commercial company, but just to help people compare and analyse their DNA and other people's. It doesn't have the same kind of privacy rules as most other sites, so make sure to read through their privacy rules before uploading DNA to them.
You don't need an ancestry subscription to access the results from their DNA test, but it helps...
GEDMatch - now called Genesis - is another website which you can upload your raw DNA data to and compare it with other people...
Many thanks, I have been using FMP as a library resource but have gone as far as I can, the line I am following stretches back into Victorian London which was then one of the most densely populated cities in the world. It was suggested that I try DNA testing.
Not entirely sure that DNA testing helps with all our brick walls. It can prove a relationship you suspect, but I'm finding it difficult with my family: masses of people piling into a town and then inconveniently dying before 1851. I have had my aunt's DNA tested and have 350 close cousins and 31k distant cousins to wade through. I'm recognising a lot of people I have already made contact with using conventional means, but it is challenging when the brick wall is two centuries ago, with a common name.
Many thanks, I have been using FMP as a library resource but have gone as far as I can, the line I am following stretches back into Victorian London which was then one of the most densely populated cities in the world. It was suggested that I try DNA testing.
It would be much cheaper (free!) to post whatever you are stuck with, or want to find out more about, on our Research board and see if we can help you!! :)
Click 'New Thread' here:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/forumdisplay.php?f=4
Not entirely sure that DNA testing helps with all our brick walls.
Am now hooked though, after I googled the subject & found that results are genuine if vague, that is much better than nothing (I hope) :D
It would be much cheaper (free!) to post whatever you are stuck with, or want to find out more about, on our Research board and see if we can help you!! :)
Click 'New Thread' here:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/forumdisplay.php?f=4
Many thanks, I already had a huge amount of help from the Rootschat site & several very kind individuals who found names, dates and certificates for me.
This is where the trail ended: a documented army pensioner in Southwark, London. There were over a dozen hits for his name but no-one succeeded in identifying his unit, it just ended in a 'bump', after a great deal of effort on behalf of the forum - great thanks to them. That man was probably my gt gt paternal grandfather who fathered my gt grandmother out-of-marriage, so you can see the difficulty, her birth certificate is blank for the father's name, it's worse than looking for a needle in a haystack, it might be a completely unrelated needle at that. His name is recorded by a registrar on gt gt grandmother's marriage certificate, and that's that, no actual proof that he was present in person or even that he was in fact the father - the name used is quite a common one, it isn't unusual at all.
Is this George Hunt, soldier? (I just looked at Rootsweb)
I think the crossed through G on the baptism entry is very significant as it suggested the father's first name began with G and so matches with Louisa Mary's marriage certificate. I would hope she therefore does indeed know the name of her father (if you were making up a name as so many did, it would be usual to use your own surname for obvious reasons!), though whether his occupation of soldier is correct is perhaps a little more troublesome. If you wanted your daughter to think there was a good reason her father was not around, then this occupation would work as a reason even if it wasn't the truth.
Here's a link to the Rootsweb thread in case anyone else wants to read it (I hope it's the right one lol)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=813271.0
Have you ordered a copy of Louisa Mary's second marriage certificate?
kiterunner
02-06-19, 22:38
You may like to know that one of the things I have found out as a result of my Ancestry DNA test is that my 2xg-grandfather John Galway (also a soldier) had an illegitimate son before his marriage to my 2xg-grandmother. The son emigrated to the US and several of his descendants came up in my DNA match list.
Have you ordered a copy of Louisa Mary's second marriage certificate?
Thanks Merry,
Haven't given up all hope of tracing my ancestors on my father's side, I have indeed ordered the marriage certificate & will let you know what it says :)
You may like to know that one of the things I have found out as a result of my Ancestry DNA test is that my 2xg-grandfather John Galway (also a soldier) had an illegitimate son before his marriage to my 2xg-grandmother. The son emigrated to the US and several of his descendants came up in my DNA match list.
Thanks. Am totally amazed by this :-o Some of the reviews of dna testing I googled were lukewarm. Can't wait to try this.
One of my lines - paternal grandmother's father - is the mystery INNELL surname, no-one knows what it means or where it comes from. I guesstimate it to an anglicized O'NEILL & would be hoping the dna testing might shed some light on this theory?
Is this George Hunt, soldier? (I just looked at Rootsweb)
I think the crossed through G on the baptism entry is very significant as it suggested the father's first name began with G and so matches with Louisa Mary's marriage certificate. I would hope she therefore does indeed know the name of her father (if you were making up a name as so many did, it would be usual to use your own surname for obvious reasons!), though whether his occupation of soldier is correct is perhaps a little more troublesome. If you wanted your daughter to think there was a good reason her father was not around, then this occupation would work as a reason even if it wasn't the truth.
Yes, George HUNT.
Wondered if the family had Traveller associations because (I worked in education & learnt that) Traveller womenfolk often took up casual labour such as laundry work while the men were often found working with horses - before the automobile trade of course. There are several census mentions of female (and indeed male) members of the family working in the laundry trade while my great gt grandfather was an 'ostler' or horse-keeper. Grandma's movements are also a complete mystery, she is born and raised in Hampstead then moves to Bromley, Kent. Her spouse is born in Hammersmith. Possibly his barracks were in Kent which may explain the move? There are so many mysteries.
Ann from Sussex
03-06-19, 06:49
Many thanks, I have been using FMP as a library resource but have gone as far as I can, the line I am following stretches back into Victorian London which was then one of the most densely populated cities in the world. It was suggested that I try DNA testing.
The best help I have found for tracing 19th century Londoners is Ancestry where they have the London Metropolitan Archives baptism, marriage and burial records plus quite a lot of London workhouse records. You can view the actual images of the parish registers and they were a treasure trove for me when I was looking for my Londoners because they often give you additional information about the family like dates of birth, addresses, occupations and, for marriage records, the names of witnesses which can sometimes help in breaking down brickwalls.
Casual work in the laundry trade and working as an ostler or similar are such commonplace occupations I think it would be hard to say there was any connection to travellers etc from that alone, but can't be ruled out I suppose. I have many of both in my tree, but haven't found any travelling family as yet!
Her spouse is born in Hammersmith. Possibly his barracks were in Kent which may explain the move?
Is that the next generation forward? The husband of a daughter of John Innell and Louisa Mary Powell? People moved a lot, usually for work or to be near relations or whatever, just like today.
Are you referring to Arthur Kemp b 14 Apr 1867? I'm guessing, just because I see he and his wife are in Kent in 1939!
The best help I have found for tracing 19th century Londoners is Ancestry where they have the London Metropolitan Archives baptism, marriage and burial records plus quite a lot of London workhouse records. You can view the actual images of the parish registers and they were a treasure trove for me when I was looking for my Londoners because they often give you additional information about the family like dates of birth, addresses, occupations and, for marriage records, the names of witnesses which can sometimes help in breaking down brickwalls.
Thanks, yes, but Ancestry isn't as accessible as FMP for library work, I'd need to have something more substantial to search for in my family to warrant taking out a subscription to Ancestry I feel.
Was hoping incidental things like witness names might yield much, but have only found several incidences of witness names and they are just perplexing, I followed some of them up & they just vanish.
Quite a few census returns are blank for occupation - I found that potentially of interest, but it leads nowhere of course.
Casual work in the laundry trade and working as an ostler or similar are such commonplace occupations I think it would be hard to say there was any connection to travellers etc from that alone...
Indeed thanks, I agree.
My father overheard someone reproving my grandma (must have been a brave soul) when he was a child, his mother was told that she 'was not following her true religion'. My father never understood what was meant by this, it stayed with him all his life. I am wondering if the dna test may shed any light upon this strange statement?
Is that the next generation forward? The husband of a daughter of John Innell and Louisa Mary Powell? People moved a lot, usually for work or to be near relations or whatever, just like today.
Yes, John Innell, descended from the Innell varnish family of Victorian London, they used to varnish hansom cabs. There is no family history connecting the Kemps with Bromley, Kent, before my grandma suddenly appears there at the time of her marriage to Arthur; nor the Innells. The Powell surname (grandma's mother's maiden name) was extensively documented in Southwark during the 18th century, which connects to Bromley by way of the Old Kent Road of course. So I also wondered if there was a Powell connection concerning the move from Hampstead in North London to Bromley Kent?
Are you referring to Arthur Kemp b 14 Apr 1867? I'm guessing, just because I see he and his wife are in Kent in 1939!
Yes, Arthur Kemp, 1867-1944, I found what may or may not be his service record last night - dates do not tally:
Kemp Arthur 1870 — 1888 British Army Service Records Hythe, Kent, England
Kemp Arthur 1873 — 1900 British Army Service Records St Mary's, Chatham, Kent, England
Ann from Sussex
03-06-19, 12:36
Thanks, yes, but Ancestry isn't as accessible as FMP for library work
Sorry, I assumed that most libraries provided free access to Ancestry like our's in Lincolnshire do. We can't get FMP though!
Yes, Arthur Kemp, 1867-1944, I found what may or may not be his service record last night - dates do not tally:
If you are referring to serving during WW1, if he had any children born during 1914-1918 his service number may be on their birth certificate. If his army documents are within the surviving ones on Ancestry then his wife and any children born should be indexed by Ancestry.
Perhaps you meant before his marriage though? (given his age). How do you know he served? Does it show up for one of his census records?
Thanks, yes, but Ancestry isn't as accessible as FMP for library work
Sorry, I assumed that most libraries provided free access to Ancestry like our's in Lincolnshire do. We can't get FMP though!
Can get into Ancestry from the public library but it won't show me census transcriptions. FMP will - only at the library, and also census images. I can also find images of marriage lists when they exist, but no certificates of course. These lists remind me of the ones once held in those huge bound volumes formerly held by the Public Records Office, with names, numbers & letters to match with spouses in corresponding volumes.
If you are referring to serving during WW1, if he had any children born during 1914-1918 his service number may be on their birth certificate. If his army documents are within the surviving ones on Ancestry then his wife and any children born should be indexed by Ancestry.
Perhaps you meant before his marriage though? (given his age). How do you know he served? Does it show up for one of his census records?
Was told my grandfather served in the (second?) Boer War & was economical about his age to get in the army. He was too old to enlist for the First World War, he managed to get into the Home Guard during WW2 but was turned away when they spotted his medals, so he was too old for that as well. Poor soul had died of natural causes by 1944, so it may be fortunate he was not allowed access to weaponry at this advanced stage of his life, I understand his eye-sight was challenging at this time also.
Yes, he was in the army. When my father was on leave (WW2 RAF electrician) he popped in on his father in Bromley, who was ill in bed at this stage, & listened to my grandfather describing the marching past of his regiment from memory, as in a parade. I'd love to know what regiment this was?
kiterunner
03-06-19, 13:36
Can get into Ancestry from the public library but it won't show me census transcriptions. FMP will - only at the library, and also census images. I can also find images of marriage lists when they exist, but no certificates of course. These lists remind me of the ones once held in those huge bound volumes formerly held by the Public Records Office, with names, numbers & letters to match with spouses in corresponding volumes.
Yes, those are the same lists but computerised.
As for ancestry, it sounds as though you aren't using the Ancestry Library Edition, though of course I don't know whether your local library provides that. If they don't, is there a FamilySearch Centre near you? They provide access to both Ancestry and FMP, though you will probably need to book a visit in advance.
With regard to Arthur Kemp b April 1867 - Had you noticed there are two Arthur Kemps registered in Kensington District in 1867. One of these two seems to have married Martha Alice Fox in 1891 (they are together in 1901 and 1911), and gives his place of birth as Hammersmith, and the other married your Louisa Mary Innell and gives his place of birth as Hammersmith in 1911.
This one should be yours:
KEMP, ARTHUR
BULLOCK
GRO Reference: 1867 J Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 107
and this one is hopefully the other man!
KEMP, ARTHUR
HOBBS
GRO Reference: 1867 D Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 153
I don't have time to go any further with this now, but I just wanted to check you were aware of the potential to go wrong. Hopefully you have the marriage certificate for your Arthur and also hopefully the two Arthurs don't both have a father with the same forename!!
You can look for A Kemp here:
http://members.pcug.org.au/~croe/sotq/sotq_abw.cgi
I note he wasn't at home with his first wife, Margaret Humphrey, in 1901 which is how it should be if he was serving in SA.
As for ancestry, it sounds as though you aren't using the Ancestry Library Edition, though of course I don't know whether your local library provides that. If they don't, is there a Family Search Centre near you? They provide access to both Ancestry and FMP, though you will probably need to book a visit in advance.
Thanks, I live in Dorset UK on the border of Hampshire, 10 minutes away from Wiltshire too. I'm not quite sure what the Ancestry Library Edition is please?
kiterunner
03-06-19, 19:09
Here is some info. I'm sure the staff at the library can help you access the Ancestry library edition:
https://www.dorsetcouncil.gov.uk/libraries-history-culture/libraries/ebooks-audiobooks-and-online-reference/ancestry-library-edition.aspx
With regard to Arthur Kemp b April 1867 - Had you noticed there are two Arthur Kemps registered in Kensington District in 1867. One of these two seems to have married Martha Alice Fox in 1891 (they are together in 1901 and 1911), and gives his place of birth as Hammersmith, and the other married your Louisa Mary Innell and gives his place of birth as Hammersmith in 1911.
This one should be yours:
KEMP, ARTHUR
BULLOCK
GRO Reference: 1867 J Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 107
and this one is hopefully the other man!
KEMP, ARTHUR
HOBBS
GRO Reference: 1867 D Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 153
...Hopefully you have the marriage certificate for your Arthur and also hopefully the two Arthurs don't both have a father with the same forename!!
The genealogy is complex which reflects life in Victorian England I'm afraid. I know Arthur had another family somewhere, because my father had a step-brother called George Thomas Kemp (born 1896), it looks very complicated to me.
What are the HOBBS and BULLOCK references please?
Don't think I have the marriage certificate for Arthur Kemp. Here is Arthur with Louisa at Bromley on the 1911 census.
Here is some info. I'm sure the staff at the library can help you access the Ancestry library edition:
https://www.dorsetcouncil.gov.uk/libraries-history-culture/libraries/ebooks-audiobooks-and-online-reference/ancestry-library-edition.aspx
Thanks, my nearest public library is in Hampshire over the border - the nearest one in Dorset is miles & miles away, I go there now & then but it's too far away for a regular stop-off. My village sits on the boundary line between Dorset & Hampshire :-o
You can look for A Kemp here:
http://members.pcug.org.au/~croe/sotq/sotq_abw.cgi
I note he wasn't at home with his first wife, Margaret Humphrey, in 1901 which is how it should be if he was serving in SA.
Thanks, it says:-
Queenstown Town Guard.
Surname: Kemp, Forename/inits: Arthur, Regimental no ~ Rank ~
Source: WO100/285
Parent Category: South African units
Category: Town Guards.
What does it all mean please - family lore placed him in the East Kents, 'The Buffs'?
Or is this him?
1208 Private Kemp A 6th Bn, the Middlesex Regiment
http://www.britishmedals.us/files/middlesex.htm
The genealogy is complex which reflects life in Victorian England I'm afraid. I know Arthur had another family somewhere, because my father had a step-brother called George Thomas Kemp (born 1896), it looks very complicated to me.
What are the HOBBS and BULLOCK references please?
Don't think I have the marriage certificate for Arthur Kemp. Here is Arthur with Louisa at Bromley on the 1911 census.
OK, So from the 1939 Register your Arthur was born 14 Apr 1867.
From the 1911 census we have him born Hammersmith.
If that info is all correct then this is his birth registration:
KEMP, ARTHUR
BULLOCK
GRO Reference: 1867 J Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 107
Bullock is his mother's maiden name and 1867 J means quarter 2 (Apr. May, Jun) is when his birth was registered, which fits with his birth being in April. Kensington District covers Hammersmith.
Looking at the 1871 census, I think this is him with his parents (note that they have him born in Kensington rather than Hammersmith)
3 Denmark Terrace Hammersmith
George Kemp head married 30 (?) cabinet maker born Middlesex Marylebone
Emma Kemp wife married 26 born Middlesex Clerkenwell
George Kemp son 5 scholar born Middlesex Shoreditch
Arthur Kemp son 3 born Middlesex Kensington
Emma Kemp daughter 10 months Middlesex Hammersmith
George and Emma both also have mother's maiden name (mmn) Bullock on their birth registrations.
Here's the parents marriage:
Marriages Jun 1864
Bullock Emma Sarah Bethnal Gn 1c 591
Kemp George Oliver Bethnal Gn 1c 591
The parish register entry is viewable on Ancestry if you can access it at the library.
Having said all the above, you do need to get the marriage cert for Arthur to Louisa to confirm his father is George, cabinet maker. It would be risky to go ahead without that confirmation.
Other family for Arthur in the following post.
Arthur Kemp's first marriage is this one:
Marriages Jun 1893
Humphrey Margaret Quick Reigate 2a 364
Kemp Arthur Reigate 2a 364
1901 census
44 Arthur Road, Beckenham, Kent
Margaret Kemp head married 26 born Beckenham, Kent
Arthur Kemp son 6 born Earlswood, Surrey
George Kemp son 5 born Beckenham, Kent
Maggie Kemp daughter 3 born Beckenham, Kent
Margaret died later in 1901 (there were no further children registered after the census and before her death)
Deaths Dec 1901
KEMP Margaret Quick 26 Bromley 2a 271
Thanks, it says:-
Queenstown Town Guard.
Surname: Kemp, Forename/inits: Arthur, Regimental no ~ Rank ~
Source: WO100/285
Parent Category: South African units
Category: Town Guards.
What does it all mean please - family lore placed him in the East Kents, 'The Buffs'?
Or is this him?
1208 Private Kemp A 6th Bn, the Middlesex Regiment
http://www.britishmedals.us/files/middlesex.htm
There are more on that first site if you search A Kemp not Arthur. One is the same one you have listed with service number 1208.
kiterunner
03-06-19, 21:47
Thanks, my nearest public library is in Hampshire over the border - the nearest one in Dorset is miles & miles away, I go there now & then but it's too far away for a regular stop-off. My village sits on the boundary line between Dorset & Hampshire :-o
https://www.hants.gov.uk/librariesandarchives/library/whatyoucanborrow/digitallibrary
https://www.bournemouth.gov.uk/Libraries/LibraryServices/HeritageZone/Onlineresources.aspx
OK, So from the 1939 Register your Arthur was born 14 Apr 1867.
From the 1911 census we have him born Hammersmith.
If that info is all correct then this is his birth registration:
KEMP, ARTHUR
BULLOCK
GRO Reference: 1867 J Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 107
Bullock is his mother's maiden name and 1867 J means quarter 2 (Apr. May, Jun) is when his birth was registered, which fits with his birth being in April. Kensington District covers Hammersmith.
Wow thanks, that's a new surname to me! :-o
Also BULLOCK 1648 (Derbyshire) (See Robert Dawson ARITF)
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/celtic-traveller/about/background
There's more here too: "Ayres, Barber, Barney, Bellows, Blake, Boswell, Bowers, Broadway, Bullock, ... Ayres, Ballam, Bowring, Brewer, Bridle, Broadway, Bryer, Buckland, Bullock, ... " Probably red herrings though.
https://rtfhs.org.uk/publications/gypsy-families/
Looking at the 1871 census, I think this is him with his parents (note that they have him born in Kensington rather than Hammersmith)
3 Denmark Terrace Hammersmith
George Kemp head married 30 (?) cabinet maker born Middlesex Marylebone
Emma Kemp wife married 26 born Middlesex Clerkenwell
George Kemp son 5 scholar born Middlesex Shoreditch
Arthur Kemp son 3 born Middlesex Kensington
Emma Kemp daughter 10 months Middlesex Hammersmith
George and Emma both also have mother's maiden name (mmn) Bullock on their birth registrations.
Here's the parents marriage:
Marriages Jun 1864
Bullock Emma Sarah Bethnal Gn 1c 591
Kemp George Oliver Bethnal Gn 1c 591
The parish register entry is viewable on Ancestry if you can access it at the library.
Having said all the above, you do need to get the marriage cert for Arthur to Louisa to confirm his father is George, cabinet maker. It would be risky to go ahead without that confirmation.
Other family for Arthur in the following post.
Have this family on census (attached) hope you can view it - have to make images quite small for the forum to upload them. Look at this, ridiculous, my grandfather who died 12 years before I was even born, aged 3! It makes my head spin :eek:
Arthur Kemp's first marriage is this one:
Marriages Jun 1893
Humphrey Margaret Quick Reigate 2a 364
Kemp Arthur Reigate 2a 364
1901 census
44 Arthur Road, Beckenham, Kent
Margaret Kemp head married 26 born Beckenham, Kent
Arthur Kemp son 6 born Earlswood, Surrey
George Kemp son 5 born Beckenham, Kent
Maggie Kemp daughter 3 born Beckenham, Kent
Thank you. Reigate, that rings a bell somewhere with those army records.
https://www.hants.gov.uk/librariesandarchives/library/whatyoucanborrow/digitallibrary
https://www.bournemouth.gov.uk/Libraries/LibraryServices/HeritageZone/Onlineresources.aspx
Thank you, am a member of Hants Libraries. Wonder if there are any bells & whistles I am not using for FMP or indeed Ancestry, that I can access through Hants? I have basic memberships with FMP & Ancestry.
There are more on that first site if you search A Kemp not Arthur. One is the same one you have listed with service number 1208.
Many thanks,
KEMP, A 1208 Private 6Bn. Middlesex Regt. Mdx. Regt.
KEMP, A 3430 Pvte Loyal N Lancashire Fusiliers WO100 Lanc. Fus.
KEMP, A 5194 Private 17th Lancers Brit. Cavalry J-L
KEMP, A 5194 Pvte 17th (Duke of Cambridge's Own) Lancers QSAs
KEMP, A 5194 Private 17th Lancers 17th Lancers
KEMP, A 6136 Private Loyal North Lancashire Regt. LNLancs.
KEMP, A Army Service Corps 2nd ABW Australians
KEMP, A Frontier Light Horse Frontier Light Horse
KEMP, A Midland Mounted Rifles Midland Mounted Rifles
KEMP, A Cathcart Dist Mounted Trp WO100/280 Cathcart DMT
The Middlesex result looks the most promising, others are cavalry, that would not match my father's recollection of Arthur's parade story, where men were 'marching'. Doubt if North Lancs would be relevant for southeast Britain musters? Still others have no service numbers & are probably overseas units - so not relevant either please?
kiterunner
03-06-19, 22:33
Thank you, am a member of Hants Libraries. Wonder if there are any bells & whistles I am not using for FMP or indeed Ancestry, that I can access through Hants? I have basic memberships with FMP & Ancestry.
Yes, ask a Hants librarian to show you how to use their library subscriptions to those sites.
Yes, ask a Hants librarian to show you how to use their library subscriptions to those sites.
Will do :) thank you.
Wow thanks, that's a new surname to me! :-o
Also BULLOCK 1648 (Derbyshire) (See Robert Dawson ARITF)
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/celtic-traveller/about/background
There's more here too: "Ayres, Barber, Barney, Bellows, Blake, Boswell, Bowers, Broadway, Bullock, ... Ayres, Ballam, Bowring, Brewer, Bridle, Broadway, Bryer, Buckland, Bullock, ... " Probably red herrings though.
https://rtfhs.org.uk/publications/gypsy-families/
Have this family on census (attached) hope you can view it - have to make images quite small for the forum to upload them. Look at this, ridiculous, my grandfather who died 12 years before I was even born, aged 3! It makes my head spin :eek:
I searched that Celtic Traveller list for the first 16 surnames I have on my tree going back to all my 2xg-grandparents and only two of those surnames were not on that list, yet I don't have any traveller families as far as I can tell (having the majority of my lines a lot further back than 2xg)! So yes, to some extent potential red herrings.
Please don't worry with posting up census images on here for others to see. I only typed out the census details from the image because I didn't know if you would have access to the image!! Usually we just post a link to the page on here if the person asking has a sub to Ancestry or FMP and they can see the images at home.
With any brickwall, it is helpful to look at the sort of surname you have. There are roughly four groups:
occupation: eg Smith
first name: eg Powell, Jackson
locality: eg Hill, Lancaster
nickname: eg Whitehead, Gotobed
We all want (but alas cannot choose!) the last sort of name as they probably all originate from the same ancestor.
It is worth looking at surname distribution maps. Even with common names, they can be more densely clustered in some parts of the country. Travellers, of course, defy all those rules by their nature.
I have Bullocks in my tree in Norfolk, but know there are apparently unrelated Bullocks in Surrey. It is so widespread that I suspect it is generally an occupational name, rather than a nickname.
Many thanks,
KEMP, A 1208 Private 6Bn. Middlesex Regt. Mdx. Regt.
KEMP, A 3430 Pvte Loyal N Lancashire Fusiliers WO100 Lanc. Fus.
KEMP, A 5194 Private 17th Lancers Brit. Cavalry J-L
KEMP, A 5194 Pvte 17th (Duke of Cambridge's Own) Lancers QSAs
KEMP, A 5194 Private 17th Lancers 17th Lancers
KEMP, A 6136 Private Loyal North Lancashire Regt. LNLancs.
KEMP, A Army Service Corps 2nd ABW Australians
KEMP, A Frontier Light Horse Frontier Light Horse
KEMP, A Midland Mounted Rifles Midland Mounted Rifles
KEMP, A Cathcart Dist Mounted Trp WO100/280 Cathcart DMT
The Middlesex result looks the most promising, others are cavalry, that would not match my father's recollection of Arthur's parade story, where men were 'marching'. Doubt if North Lancs would be relevant for southeast Britain musters? Still others have no service numbers & are probably overseas units - so not relevant either please?
I used FMP to find more on A Kemp service number 1208 and discovered he was named Alfred Kemp and was born about 1882 in Hoxton, so not the right man!
3430 is Alexander Kemp b 1879, Aldershot
6136 is Ernest Albert Kemp b 1880 Ticehurst Sussex
I can't find the full record for 5194 at the moment.... will keep looking for a while.
Re 5194
There is a Philip Camp who has that service number, and on some of his service record (on FMP) his surname has been amended from Kemp. However, he was in the Suffolk regiment and was recorded as serving in Burma 1900-1902, so unlikely to be the one in SA. Just detailing him here in case he pops up again!
The only other place I can find 5194 is in Ancestry's UK, Military Campaign Medal and Award Rolls, 1793-1949
Name: A Kemp (Pte)
Service Date: 1899-1902
Service Place: South Africa
Campaign or Service: South Africa - Second Boer War
Regiment or Unit Name: 17th Lancers
Regimental Number: 5194
This man was awarded the South Africa medal with clasps for Johannesburg, Diamond Hill, Wittebergen and Cape Colony.
Again, annoyingly, no first name listed.
Please don't worry with posting up census images on here for others to see. I only typed out the census details from the image because I didn't know if you would have access to the image!! Usually we just post a link to the page on here if the person asking has a sub to Ancestry or FMP and they can see the images at home.
Thank you.
The Traveller interest is by way of what was said to my grandmother about her 'true religion', no-one knew what this meant. I am hoping the dna test might give an insight.
The only other place I can find 5194 is in Ancestry's UK, Military Campaign Medal and Award Rolls, 1793-1949
Name: A Kemp (Pte)
Service Date: 1899-1902
Service Place: South Africa
Campaign or Service: South Africa - Second Boer War
Regiment or Unit Name: 17th Lancers
Regimental Number: 5194
This man was awarded the South Africa medal with clasps for Johannesburg, Diamond Hill, Wittebergen and Cape Colony.
Again, annoyingly, no first name listed.
Many thanks - what a bewildering line I have! :-o
There's no horse lore in the family as far as I am aware, if my grandfather had been cavalry his son would almost certainly have known about it. My father's half-brother George KEMP was given Arthur KEMP's diary that he'd kept during his time in South Africa. Sadly, there is no connection with that side of the family now - never has been. My father lamented the diary going to the step-side of the family but that was that.
My parents always thought Arthur had been in the East Kents (Regiment) - but there is no A. Kemp listed here.
https://www.angloboerwar.com/unit-information/imperial-units/550-east-kent-regiment
Thank you.
The Traveller interest is by way of what was said to my grandmother about her 'true religion', no-one knew what this meant. I am hoping the dna test might give an insight.
Your grandmother was Louisa Mary Innell who married Arthur Kemp? (just checking).
Your grandmother was Louisa Mary Innell who married Arthur Kemp? (just checking).
Yes thanks, Louisa Mary INNELL born 1883, Dalston.
Were she and Arthur token C of E of were they regular churchgoers (C of E or some other denomination)?
Were she and Arthur token C of E of were they regular churchgoers (C of E or some other denomination)?
Don't believe they had any Church connections at all, they would presumably have been nominally CofE, I come from a thoroughly secular background. There was more religion on my mother's side. Grandma's room at Bromley had no religious items in it at all, just endless Victoriana decorating each and every square inch of the wall space. She also liked a drink (when I wasn't there) and smoked Players Navy Cut, I remember the attractive turquoise cigarette packets. She never smoked in my presence though.
http://www.cigarettespedia.com/images/e/ed/Player_s_navy_cut_mild_s_20_b_blue_old_design_cana da.jpg
As we don't know who it was who told her she was not following her true religion, it might be very difficult to understand what they meant!
As we don't know who it was who told her she was not following her true religion, it might be very difficult to understand what they meant!
Impossible in fact, it was obviously someone not that well known to the family or my father would have identified her, pretty sure it was a she. His mother never broached the subject further. Wonder if the dna test will come up with anything :confused:
It's possible. Of course it could be that they thought something about her that was incorrect - that she was originally a Catholic, for instance.
It's possible. Of course it could be that they thought something about her that was incorrect - that she was originally a Catholic, for instance.
Thanks. Our family was close to grandmother, we'd visit practically every weekend, and I'd be left at her house 'to play' on Saturdays, she'd station me in front of her monochrome television set & I'd watch programmes like 'The Saint' with Roger Moore. There was never any conversation & I was 'quiet' as far as temperament goes. My father's sister lived upstairs with her husband - there's was lots of conversation upstairs - they had a son much older than I was; I used to enjoy going up to see them, sometimes they put me in 'the best room' up there. Everybody had a best room in those days, for entertaining. Another couple lived at the back of the property, the Simpsons, I don't remember anything about them except the name. I have no idea if there was a family relation. Anyway, any hint of Roman Catholicism would have stood out I should think, I'd have remembered it. There was no trace of Arthur, no pictures of him in uniform, that would have interested a small boy, only the picture of the sailor on grandma's wide cigarette packets. Many mysteries. Oh, grandma and dad's brother-in-law had a vague accent, my father's name was Reginald, 'Reg', they both called him 'Reej', grandma called me 'boysie'. I am going back over half a century here :)
It's great that you have these memories of your childhood and these relations etc. Make sure you write all this down, as otherwise one day it will be lost.
I treasure my great aunt's 'memoirs' - I expect she thought they were just silly little anecdotes, but makes a huge difference to what I know about the personalities of her siblings, parents, some aunts and uncles and two grandmothers - The same goes for my 3xg-grandfather who wrote about his life (1748-1821) - it's only three or four pages long but again, makes me feel like I 'know' him to some extent!
With regard to the Simpsons who lived at the back of the house....
Your father's brother, Jack Arthur Kemp seems to have married a Simpson:
Marriages Dec 1941
Kemp John A Simpson Bromley 2a 2226
Simpson Doreen M V Kemp Bromley 2a 2226 <<< possibly known as Marion
So could the other family be connected to her? (I know Jack is written John for the marriage when his birth reg was in the name Jack Arthur, but his death registration is also in the name John Arthur, so I think this marriage is the right person)
Doreen is living at 8 Kinnaird Avenue Bromley in 1939. The people she is with are Ernest (b 1880) and Ana (sic) (b 1887) Simpson. I'm not sure if they are her parents as I can't see a convincing birth registration for Doreen.
Ernest Simpson seems to have died in 1950, but I'm not sure about Ana.
Ernest Simpson's probate entry says he was still living at 8 Kinnaird Avenue. His wife was Ana Marie Simpson, so Ana isn't a spelling mistake as I'd thought!
maggie_4_7
05-06-19, 08:11
There is this death, of course not sure of Ana''s birth date.
https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=arD5179&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&dbid=7579&gsfn=Ana%20Marie&gsln=Simpson&cp=4&qh=IZY908MwH2eCBgxe/7Omiw%3D%3D&new=1&rank=1&uidh=ek4&redir=false&gss=angs-d&pcat=34&fh=0&h=35334216&recoff=&ml_rpos=1
Scrub that I see your Ana born 1887 and at another address in 1939, I haven't read the thread through!
Ahh this that Ana and it isn't her, the middle name is Mary and she is with James.
https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61596&h=5638494&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=arD5187&_phstart=successSource
Having said I rarely look at Ancestry trees, I've just done that for the Simpson family :D and learned that Ana Maria was probably from Peru and her children with Ernest were born in Chili which I why I couldn't see a birth reg for Doreen.
According to the tree, Ernest and Ana Marie had a son called Reginald Herbert Simpson (born c 1914 in Chili -died 1960 Bromley) and I've jus looked at his probate entry which also gives his usual address in 1960 as 8 Kinnaird Avenue.
Hopefully all this will help determine whether these Simpsons are anything to do with the people you vaguely remember or just red herrings!
Maggie - according to the online tree the correct Ana Marie died abroad.
I treasure my great aunt's 'memoirs' - I expect she thought they were just silly little anecdotes, but makes a huge difference to what I know about the personalities of her siblings, parents, some aunts and uncles and two grandmothers - The same goes for my 3xg-grandfather who wrote about his life (1748-1821) - it's only three or four pages long but again, makes me feel like I 'know' him to some extent!
Cool, I have a lot of family history now - both sides - not very deep in time though, but still. My gt, gt grandfather on my mother's side was a miller, he owned a windmill at Great Baddow by Chelmsford. No-one in the family knew. I love windmills, perhaps that is why? When William STEVENS died his spouse Martha (nee) BROWN became the miller, she ran the mill herself. A mill is like a ship, you have to guide it through the weather like a sailing ship, if you get it wrong, you lose the mill! :-o
Arthur KEMP kept an army diary, I was told it went to my father's half-brother George KEMP, I'd dearly love to read that diary one day, if it has survived.
With regard to the Simpsons who lived at the back of the house....
Your father's brother, Jack Arthur Kemp seems to have married a Simpson:
Marriages Dec 1941
Kemp John A Simpson Bromley 2a 2226
Simpson Doreen M V Kemp Bromley 2a 2226 <<< possibly known as Marion
So could the other family be connected to her? (I know Jack is written John for the marriage when his birth reg was in the name Jack Arthur, but his death registration is also in the name John Arthur, so I think this marriage is the right person)
Doreen is living at 8 Kinnaird Avenue Bromley in 1939. The people she is with are Ernest (b 1880) and Ana (sic) (b 1887) Simpson. I'm not sure if they are her parents as I can't see a convincing birth registration for Doreen.
Ernest Simpson seems to have died in 1950, but I'm not sure about Ana.
Thanks, gosh - so there does seem to be a connection. When I visited grandma at Bromley, Kent, she & the extended family lived at 50 Lansdowne Road; I am aware of other Bromley addresses for grandma prior to 1939, but her movements - & indeed those of her spouse - are a mystery at the moment.
Yes, I have a Jack A Kemp down as my father's brother. This gets confusing. There was a Jack Kemp somewhere in the family but the only 'brother' my father mentioned was John Kemp and he married a Doreen, they moved to Switzerland in the 60's or 70's. John - who has since sadly passed on - did a lot of family research, but none of it ever came down to our family. So possibly John was known as Jack earlier on?
John & Doreen lived not that far from Lansdowne Road I seem to recall, I remember being shown the air raid shelter in their back garden which was full of house spiders :D
So SIMPSON must have been Doreen's maiden name? That means the Mrs Simpson my father sometimes mentioned must have been her mother - living at Lansdowne Road? Unless my memory of these snatches of conversation is inaccurate, all these years later.
So possibly John was known as Jack earlier on?
I agree - he was Jack on his birth reg and Jack on the 1939 Register and John at marriage and at death.
That means the Mrs Simpson my father sometimes mentioned must have been her mother
Seems very likely.
I agree - he was Jack on his birth reg and Jack on the 1939 Register and John at marriage and at death.
Wonder why her mother was living at grandma's though?
What year are you thinking of, roughly?
What year are you thinking of, roughly?
Well, I was visiting Bromley in the mid 1960's.
The Simpson family must still have been living at the back of the premises, because I never went in that part of the house; grandma's room was in the front of the house, ground floor; upstairs was dad's sister's family with the best room at the front of the property, top floor. The Simpsons must have occupied the ground floor of the premises at the back - I can never remember going into the back yard or garden for example, you'd need to pass through their part of the house to go out through the back door. So they must have been there in the 1960's?
kiterunner
05-06-19, 22:21
The 1965 electoral register gives the names of the Simpsons at 50 Lansdowne Road but I won't type them on here in case they are still alive, as I don't know the names of Doreen's parents until I check. But here is a link to the electoral register image for ref:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1795/40020_625537_0082-00042/288995658?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co. uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdbid%3d1795%26gsln%3dsimpson%26gsf n_x%3d1%26gsln_x%3d1%26cp%3d0%26gskw%3dlansdowne%2 6gskw_x%3d1%26hc%3d20%26_F0005A49%3dbromley%26_F00 05A49_x%3d1%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26uidh%3dvm5%26re dir%3dfalse%26msT%3d1&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Edit - there is a possible marriage for this couple in 1963 and a possible birth for him in 1942.
I will send you a private message (PM) with their names.
Just to say, I haven't come across that couple when looking at the family of Ernest and Ana Marie (Doreen's parents).
Interestingly, when I search that address on Ancestry's London erolls I don't get any matches!!
The 1965 electoral register gives the names of the Simpsons at 50 Lansdowne Road but I won't type them on here in case they are still alive, as I don't know the names of Doreen's parents until I check. But here is a link...
Edit - there is a possible marriage for this couple in 1963 and a possible birth for him in 1942.
That may have been my cousin.
I will send you a private message (PM) with their names.
Many thanks.
Just to say, I haven't come across that couple when looking at the family of Ernest and Ana Marie.
Interestingly, when I search that address on Ancestry's London erolls I don't get any matches!!
1965 marked the reorganisation of local government. An outer London borough like Bromley would previously been in Kent, so 1965 would be the earliest year you could find an electoral roll in the London collection (anomalies excepted!)
Thanks Phoenix. I don't know why I didn't get 1965 come up though? Maybe I was focusing on earlier dates at the time I searched?!
The order of names on Kite's link look very odd: they are not as set out on the page.
But Kite's search included the word lansdowne, so you should have had a result.
If you still think this couple from the electoral rolls are relations, any idea whether it's on the Simpson side or the wife's side (I'm presuming Kiterunner gave you her likely maiden name from the 1963 marriage in a personal message)?
I have looked at the likely parents of the husband, but I don't see how they would connect to the other Simpsons already on this thread (though with such a common surname I could have gone wrong!). There could, of course, be a different connection to you via different Simpsons, or through the wife's surname or that of either of their mothers.
kiterunner
06-06-19, 08:39
The order of names on Kite's link look very odd: they are not as set out on the page.
I don't understand what you mean?
Edit - oh, now I do! You mean the index is out of sequence.
I don't understand what you mean?
Edit - oh, now I do! You mean the index is out of sequence.
I don't! :confused:
kiterunner
06-06-19, 09:39
Merry, click on the link in post #70 and then at the bottom of the screen, next to the image number, click on the icon of two heads with lines next to them. This brings up the index, which should match the sequence of the names on the image, but in this case is jumbled. To stop seeing the index, just click on the same icon again.
Thanks Kate. I've never even noticed that two heads thing before never mind clicked on it!
maggie_4_7
06-06-19, 09:56
Thanks Kate. I've never even noticed that two heads thing before never mind clicked on it!
Don't worry I have only just noticed it having read these posts :D
kiterunner
06-06-19, 10:03
It (normally) comes in useful when you need help finding whereabouts a record is on the page, for instance if it's all faint or scrawly handwriting.
Thanks. Never knew Doreen was a Simpson, dad only mentioned a Mrs Simpson at Lansdowne Road, I never saw or heard her - or any family she may have been part of. That all happened at the back of house where nobody visiting ever went; the stairs up to my father's sister's living area were near the front of the property. The ground floor hallway went straight back to the end of the house, but you always turned a right into grandma's room after coming in through the front door. The Simpsons were never mentioned by anyone except my father, & in retrospect; but for that, I would not have known there was another surname associated with the Lansdowne Road household.
It doesn't have the same kind of privacy rules as most other sites, so make sure to read through their privacy rules before uploading DNA to them.
Does My Heritage have strict privacy rules? After gedmatch releasing data I'm wary of uploading anywhere. Also with the chromosome browser can up opt in to that? I'm not sure I want people to be access my family's raw data.
kiterunner
11-06-19, 08:47
Yes, you can opt in or out of the chromosome browser, and it won't show your full data to your matches anyway, just which bits match to them.
kiterunner
11-06-19, 08:48
And this is their privacy policy:
https://www.myheritage.com/privacy-policy
it won't show your full data to your matches anyway, just which bits match to them.
I like that concept.
Thanks.
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